T-Man's Religous Debate for Doreen

I AM God and thou shalt not step on my toes

hehe

that's what turns me off to the organized religions...if you're not with us, you're going to hell and burn for eternity.

If you are not with God then you are against God and therefore are not invited to the kingdom of Heaven.

IMHO, its not any persons place to tell another person they are going to burn in hell. That is only for God to decide. As part of being a desciple of Jesus it is part of our duty/obligation to help teach others about Jesus and hope that they too will also believe and accept Jesus into their life. We should never judge.

SODOMY IS AN ABOMINABLE SIN, WORTHY OF DEATH.
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Leviticus 18:22.
See also Leviticus 20:13, Genesis 19, Romans 1:18-32, I Corinthians 6:9-11, I Timothy 1:10, and Jude 7.
GOD HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY.
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight, thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Psalm 5:5.
See also Leviticus 20:23, Leviticus 26:30, Deuteronomy 32:19, Psalm 5:6, Psalm 11:5, Malachi 1:3, Matthew 7:23, and Romans 9:13.
JESUS CHRIST DIED ONLY FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
See also John 13:1, John 17:9, Ephesians 5:25, etc.
ONLY GOD'S ELECT HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO BELIEVE.
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39,40.
See also John 10:11,26, Matthew 11:25,26, Acts 13:48, Romans 9:19-24, etc.
SODOMITES ARE PROUD OF THEIR SIN ("GAY PRIDE"), AND IN THAT PRIDEFUL STATE THEY CANNOT REPENT - YOU CANNOT REPENT OF SOMETHING YOU'RE PROUD OF.
"Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 6:15.
See also Jeremiah 13:23, Romans 1:24-32, Ezekiel 16:49-50, etc.
THE SODOMITES' ONLY HOPE IS TO HAVE THE UNAMBIGUOUS TRUTH PREACHED TO THEM, AND PERHAPS GOD WILL SOFTEN THEIR HEARTS AND GRANT THEM REPENTANCE TO DEPART FROM THEIR SIN AND NAME THE NAME OF CHRIST. NOT VERY LIKELY, THOUGH, SINCE GOD HAS GIVEN THEM UP.
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." II Timothy 2:19. "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness...unto vile affections...to a reprobate mind." Romans 1:24-28.
See also II Timothy 2:24-26, Psalm 5:5, I Corinthians 6:9-11, Acts 17:30, Jude 22,23, etc.
THERE IS A HELL WHERE ALL IMPENITENT SINNERS WILL RESIDE FOR ALL ETERNITY. THAT INCLUDES SODOMITES (CALLED "DOGS").
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:24. "For without are dogs..." Revelation 22:15.
See also Mark 9:44, Luke 16:23, Revelation 20:15.
In summary, sodomites are wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly (Gen. 13:13), are violent and doom nations (Gen. 19:1-25; Jgs. 19), are abominable to God (Lev. 18:22), are worthy of death for their vile, depraved, unnatural sex practices (Lev. 20:13; Rom. 1:32), are called dogs because they are filthy, impudent and libidinous (Deut. 23:17,18; Mat. 7:6; Phil. 3:2), produce by their very presence in society a kind of mass intoxication from their wine made from grapes of gall from the vine of Sodom and the fields of Gomorrah which poisons society's mores with the poison of dragons and the cruel venom of asps (Deut. 32:32,33), declare their sin and shame on their countenance (Isa. 3:9), are shameless and unable to blush (Jer. 6:15), are workers of iniquity and hated by God (Psa. 5:5), are liars and murderers (Jn. 8:44), are filthy and lawless (2 Pet. 2:7,8), are natural brute beasts (2 Pet. 2:12), are dogs eating their own vomit and sows wallowing in their own feces (2 Pet. 2:22), will proliferate at the end of the world bringing final judgment on mankind (Lk. 17:28-30), have been finally given up by God to uncleanness dishonoring their own bodies among themselves, to vile affections, and to a reprobate mind such that they cannot think straight about anything (Rom. 1:23-28), have wholly given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh (Jude 7), must be pulled as faggots from the fire (Jude 23), and have no hope of Heaven unless they repent (Rev. 22:15), which they can't do in their prideful state (Jer. 6:15). They need to hear this truth if they are to have any hope of penitence, faith in Jesus Christ and salvation (I Timothy 4:2-4).

Well I've always took a sort of CS Lewis "Chronicles of Narnia" look at things. At one point in one of the last books the Jesus figure (Aslan the Lion) says something to the effect of "Whenever you do something with right and goodness in your heart no matter the name you worship you do it in my name and anytime you break your word or in malice even tho in my name you do it against me" to a good person from a land that didnt know Aslan.

Anyway sorry if was ment to be private converse.

If we're going to quote Leviticus, then let's really open the door. Leviticus also gives us the right to stone women who come out during their time of month.

Leviticus also allows us to have slaves and sell them. I can sell my daughter into slavery too as long as it's not to foreigners. Does that mean I can't sell my children to Canada? It' *practically* part of the US.

Who are the real outsiders...those with these kind of beliefs or the people who refuse to live by them.

And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.


The most precious belief is your own no matter what all this 'wording' preaches

i miss jesus, he never visits anymore

I do not believe there is a god, I renounced my faith about 12 years ago and couldn't be happier. Just never could "by into" the stories. Faith, some have it, I don't. I'm not gonna say anyone who has faith is wrong, but I wanted to let everyone know that a happy fufilling life is possible without the need to believe in a higher power, and without the fear of "Eternal Damnation".

My thoughts exactly Knatzz

Jesus saves........he shoots..............he SCORES!!!!!

Lock and load!

Froggy is dead right, you simply cannot take the Bible word for word. It was written for a different time, a different place and a different culture.

That said, the message, especially that of Jesus is still as valid as ever. One of my pet peeves is modern day Pharases. We don't approve of how you ... (fill in your favorite "sin") so you aren't welcome here. Horse hockey. But then that's just my poor, uninformed pagan view.

/me can just see the bombs fly in this one!

hehe Brad!
/me sees half us girls on WC run for cover...

The problem is that most people look at Christianity in the wrong way. The fact as the Bible tells it is that everyone is going to hell. Doesn't matter who you are, everyone. Hell is being without God. Evil cannot be in the same place as God. God is like Light and sin is like Dark. You put a light on and the dark vanishes. Same premise. God is love ergo Hell is being without love and so you have all the hate and nastiness in one place. All men have sinned and so heading for hell. God does not want this to happen so he sends his Son Jesus into the world to live His life as a man and to commit no sin. Jesus although He has no sin is killed and taking all people from all times sin on Himself is killed and descends into hell. ie completely cut off from God and alone with no love. But Jesus conquers sin and death and comes back to life and back to be with God. All He asks in order that you can go to the same place is that you accept His offer. He's not there saying "if you don't do this I will send you to hell". He's saying "Do you want to go to heaven or hell?" The choice is up to you. If you want to go to Heaven you say "Yes please. Thanks for offering". If not you say "No thanks. I understand I've been warned but I choose not to believe in you and God. I'll take whatever happens."

As you can probably tell I am a Christian. I believe in this wholeheartedly and thank God everyday for Jesus. Probably not as often as I should.

As T-Man says it is not for Christians to judge others and say 'you are going to hell' it's for Christians to try to explain God's immense love and compassion and that he does not want his creation to go to hell but has given his creation a free choice to make a decision on their own. Jesus last words to his disciples was to "go into all the world baptising and telling people about me". God wants every person to have the choice and it is incumbent on those who have had the choice and believe it to give other people the same choice.

It is up to God to judge who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. It's not a big ceremony you have to go through. You just have to say in your heart (and mean it) that you understand what Jesus did for you and that you realise you do commit sins and want him to take them on himself and remove them so you can be with God. You can make it at any time of your life but bear in mind that nobody knows when they will die.

I've probably not explained this as well as I should as I am not a great writer but I just cannot sit by and not say anything. It would be a tragedy to only have a few skinners in Heaven.

Thanks for listening.

Oh and religion is all about people reaching out to God. Christianity is about God through Jesus reaching out to people.

Yes I did accidentally post it in the wrong thread. Apologies. Hey I'm only human and hence not perfect.

hehe phil well that is the way I feel or understand it to be too... though I have not read through the Bible cuz I have a problem w/ reading and getting bored or something, but I think I was 5 or 6 years old when I first heard/felt God w/ no prior introduction to him from my parents or from anyone!
and though I don't attend Church these days (I did a few years back)and now have no excuse cuz I have a rediculous amount of Churchs surrounding me I just don't...
and I don't even attempt to pick up the Bible but I Love God and he knows this, not sure where this leads me w/ my walk w/ him? cuz I always fall but time will tell.

PJ, you said it very well. I know that I could not have spoken as eloquently as you have. Its obvious to me that Jesus is indeed in your heart.

Agree mr T and powell, howevereven though it may be our duty to share God's word, it's also what most of us WANT to do.. even if it wasn't.

what many people don't realize is most of the time when people share their religious beliefs they do it because they care... not because they are looking down at you or trying to make you feal like an idiot. If they didn't care about you, why would they take the time to explain their life-held views?

I prob could have read the Bible through 100 X's if I read it as much as I read these blasted msg boards in bet work sheesh! what is my problem? hehe

As one who was born and raised in the *Christian* church, and not to repeat what anyone else has already said, but I get sick of being condemned by others of the same faith because I don't conform 100% to their belief structure. Or, with others of the same faith condemning those who don't feel the same as they do, ie non-christians. I kind of look at it like, "I have my belief, you have your belief and that's that, deal with it."

I still go to church, but I also still have a beer with my meal everynight, I occassionally curse and I don't do the things those in the pious religious right would want you to do. Do I still think I'm a christian, yes I do, but just because I don't live my life by the same standards doesn't make my any less of a christian than the next guy. Each individual has their weaknesses, but your weakness doesn't mean that I can't do it, as it's not my weakness and vice versa.

After 29 years in the church, I still really struggle with organized religion and how people, both inside and out, are treated. If it's truly all about love and respect, then why don't people really do the things the bible teaches.

Anyway, I'm rambling, good and touchy subject though.

ps - Excellent point Brad, should be pretty obvious today that society has evolved a little bit since Leviticus was written.

Thanks mooshoo. I think I lost that point in there somewhere.

those who dont beleive, how does this idea grab you?
(In no way indended to offend those who are religious)

I am GOD, for the following reason -

weather you beleive or not, it has been shown that there exists hidden texts withing the old testiment (origional hebrew) whitch seems to predict many world events over the past 3000 years, before you deny this, have a quick net search for 'bible code', many people refuse to beleive this, usually until they hear of something predicet in the bible, found before the event, that actually happens, on a few occasions this has happened.

anyway, to find this code, a computer was needed/used, the code is a very simple one, as we know, god dictated the bible to moses, and as usual in hebrew, with no punctuation, word spacing or formatting of any kind.
so you take a letter X places from the start, cound X places (the same X) and take that letter, and keep going, using this method, sentensed can be found within the texts, major assasinations and the likes. you find someones name, format the letters of the texts in a grid, so that the name appears together (without removing anything) then around or through that name, you will find key words to do with that person, wordsearch style.

So, what is he rambling on about?

You cant predict 3000 years of future, not accuratly enough to give names dates and places, but you can however record 3000 years of history very accuratly. thats the key.
to code all of this information into some passages of text, you would need some very sofisticated software, to take a paragraph of text, and arrange the words in such a way, that the hidden information is obtainable with the origional paragraph not being reduced to a bunch of jibberish, some sort of theosorous software shoud help, to replace text with different text that means the same thing. but how are we going to make thises texts last so long that we find the code anyway? what do people hold most of all? religoin, we'll put the text in a holy book!

anyway, now we have a fare idea how to do such a task, we hav hidden our history notes in a whole bunch of stories designed to explain evolution to our anccestors, reading it normally tells us how to live our lives, how the earch came about, and all of that, when we find the hidden code, it tells us other stuff.

so, in the future, when time travel comes about (dont say its impossible, not so long ago, earth being round was impossible, travelling faster than 100mph was impossible etc.) you go back to 3000 years ago, and read this book, letter by letter, no spacing or formating, to this moses guy, explaning that you are god, and that these texts should be kept for all time)

so my point is - I came up with the idea, the bible will be based on my ideas, so technically I will write it, so i am god.

make sense?