IPlural IPlural

US is going to war tomarrow... dang...

US is going to war tomarrow... dang...

opps

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Reply #1451 Top
dangerous fools...
Reply #1452 Top
I'm on the wrong planet...

The convenient thing about history is you can focus on the parts that suit your reality the best. When things have been a certain way for a long time it's easy to think they've always been that way and that it's natural. There have been cultures that enjoyed over a thousand years of peace and propserity. Their demise always came from within, not from a conqueror.

America was leading the world to a new prosperity and a potential of world peace and a sharing of values that was not bound by cultural identity. Values that could transcend culture and have meaning to any society. There were great statesmen whose vision and drive for bettering the human condition was infecting the entire world's population with an inspiration and hope. They were all assasinated or pushed aside as the influence of greed and aquisition regained it's hold of the roots of the political tree. With four bullets four of the pillars of contemporary political wisdom were silenced forever.

There are no statesmen in politics today, only corporate execs, sleazy influence pedlers and marketing people. We have no leaders to guide us, only ideological tyrants to rob us of our dignity, our freedoms and our money. So why fight their wars and feed their greed and lust for power? Let them do it themselves. Let them kill each other. We should be growing food to feed our children, building schools to educate them and hospitals to heal them, but instead we grow armies to protect the wealthy from the rising population of dissatisfied jobless and impoverished desperate people.

America is earning the right to nothing more than a third-world status. We are becomming the very sort of government that free countries fear and no one respects. Our fall will be a story told in history books for centuries. That our grace and wisdom which once was a beacon to the world became a pipeline, sucking the wealth and human potential from every nation on the earth. If we continue to promote a global hegemony that serves industry for the goal of individual personal wealth, we are doomed.
Reply #1453 Top
I like Dave's grasp of vocabulary....a joy to read...


BTW, unconfirmed reports are that Saddam and nephews are 'ex-parrots', thanks to 4 2000lb bombs....
Reply #1454 Top
Please, David, please clue me in on this thousand years of peace... Where? I'd bet dimes to donuts it never existed, and if it did it is a fragile anomaly in all of human history.

" So why fight their wars and feed their greed and lust for power?"

Because their nations, too, are ruled by "corporate execs, sleazy influence peddlers and marketing people" and they will behave as such whether we do or not. If we try to behave in a way outside the natural order, we'll find ourselves outside it, and maybe worse, a victim of it. Didn't you read my post?

Listen, I love peace and ethics as much as anyone, but to allow your nation to decline and drift aimlessly in the currents made by other, less idealistic nations is poor stewardship. That isn't what we elect people to do. There is an effect to every cause, and you can't forget that inaction is a cause as well. This world is being sliced up and its resources are being reallocated constantly. Should nations with lofty ideals just forgo their claim on any of them?

The US isn't Iceland, and we can't pretend we are, unless you think we should somehow reduce our population to a completely self-sustaining level and rely on allies to protect us. I think you will find, in that case, that those nations who rely upon our consumerism won't praise our idealism, rather be enraged at our withdrawal. We would be of no use when people like Saddam Hussein invade places like Kuwait. North Korea would no doubt see *any* closed-door policy as an act of war...

For someone who embraces the idea of 'ecosystems' you are really quick to forget how they work.

Reply #1455 Top
Baker's world is one where Peace and Coexistence are foreign concepts.

By the way, how is the US ever going to find out if Saddam is dead or alive if they're dropping bunker busters on his head? You'll never find a corpse that way.
Reply #1456 Top
no, crea, 'Peace and Coexistence' exist in my world, but they are the product of stewardship, not accidental occurrences. If it were we wouldn't need police or law.

Go to any demilitarized zone, go to any nation with no law, and see if the natural order is 'Peace and Coexistence'. Take a look at the Ivory Coast, for instance. France expected peace and coexistence just to happen on its own?

There is always someone there to beat you up and take your lunch money, that is nature. Society is a system that *actively* prevents it. Must've been a shock when 'peace and coexistence' didn't show up to stop the tribal militias in the "Democratic Republic of Congo" this week: http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=21637

Not that anyone at the UN will care unless they can find someone else to blame for it. 'Peace and Coexistence' are the products of action, not inaction.
Reply #1457 Top
Baker .... my dogs are VERY much part of the family, being hounds we're all just part of the 'pack'.
But you won't find better behaved or even tempered mutts than ours ... never shown any sign of aggressive behavior!
Then again, Beagles are 'the' superior breed
And thank you Mr Schultz (?) for letting us play with your dog .....

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Reply #1458 Top
Let's not forget "progress". Without that people will continue running around in circles, doing what they always did.

What you see in Africa is centuries of tribal warfare. The only thing that stopped them from doing so during the colonial period was armed force. Exit coloniser, exit stability, resume the old ways. Only now they've got modern weaponry, so they kill more efficiently.
Reply #1459 Top
Today I watched a news story that was talking about "postwar" Iraq. They were analyzing the mistakes made in Afghanistan and other places, and they said they had concluded that one of the biggest mistake was in not providing stewardship so that any political process could be effected. They said that its absense opened the way for thugism, rather than a real government

... it kind of seems a little that that is why government evolved in the first place.
Reply #1460 Top
One thing I wonder a lot is how much the discovery and destruction of all those ammo dumps in Iraq and Afghanistan is going to affect the general unrest in the region?
Reply #1461 Top
I am all for progress, but if others lag behind you can't just trust that they will bow to your superior ethics. More likely they will see your ethics as a weakness. There isn't really less war now, anyway, it is just more often waged economically. Later, maybe we'll find more and more benign ways to wage it until it no longer resembles its progenitor. Nice thought.

Africa is a golden example of what happens when part of the world evolves past a primitive practice (colonialism) and simply leaves. The same could be said for Southeast Asia. As crea says, in order for 'Peace and Coexistence' to prevail there, it would have to be imposed. We are too evolved for that, so our ex-colonies are... better for it?

Nah. Peace and Coexistence, once again, are the products of care, not carelessness. The UN wants to rebuild Iraq after we are done, will we get blamed when they wander off, like they have everywhere else? Damned if ya do, damned if ya let someone else do... We are taken to task for ongoing troubles in Afghanistan, and yet a stronger hand would be the dreaded 'nation building'.

**

I got into an argument with a vegetarian once. I can comprehend the need to avoid meat for health reasons (though I doubt the soundness of the practice). This person, though, was totally against meat as a food source because it required killing an animal. I wondered out loud whether lions would be better off if they did so too, and the vegetarian wholeheartedly agreed with the idea. Not only was it morally wrong for us to eat animals, it was morally wrong for the lion too. The lion just wasn't 'evolved' enough to notice. That concept is so foreign to me that it is really beyond comprehension.

Where do ideals like this come from? At what point are we bettered by finding the normal working order of nature distasteful? Maybe natural processes evolve to unrecognizable equivalents, but I am troubled by any need to cast them off completely before their time, whether it be war or my rare steak...
Reply #1462 Top
For some obscure reason I seem to agree with you for once.

Vegetarianism has a number of sources, one being religious (for instance in Buddhism one tries to disconnect oneself from the world by living sober) or social ("oh, those poor piggies"). But as long as man is still born with four teeth used for tearing meat, this crae will continue to eat it.

But the trouble with these things is, what you may find best for people, may not be what they feel. So what to do then? Force them to adopt your principles? Or convince them somehow (which could be a slow process)?
Reply #1463 Top
"Smoking gun" WMD site in Iraq turns out to contain pesticide
NEAR NAJAF, Iraq (AFP) - A facility near Baghdad that a US officer had said might finally be "smoking gun" evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons production turned out to contain pesticide, not sarin gas as feared. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030407/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_wmd_030407175243

Alberto Fujimori“s CountryXXX was Peru btw.
Reply #1464 Top
JamMeister: "I hope we completely annihilate Iraq (...) and then maybe we'll go after a few more
criminally minded countries"


I agree with you!, Heck why stop at the middle east? Lets just blow up the whole planet!!
Then for sure, we'll have peace,
Reply #1465 Top
moshi .... I think I had Pinochet(?) on my mind .... no idea why!
Fujimori, one very odd dude that one!
Nice "WMD" post BTW!
Strange pre-occupation this thing with Sarin and 'Mustard Gas', Sarin is WW2 chemistry and Mustard Gas dates back to 1915.
paxx, done and dusted. Might be the only way we'll get some sleep!

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Reply #1468 Top
craeonics memorises Jafo......film at 11....
Reply #1469 Top
Do they put pesticides in missiles now - a - days?
Report: U.S. Finds Missiles with Chemical Weapons
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47645-2003Apr7.html
Reply #1471 Top
grrr
I see the post makes you sign up
ok
the article goes like this:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. forces near Baghdad found a weapons cache of around 20 medium-range missiles equipped with potent chemical weapons, the U.S. news station National Public Radio reported on Monday.

NPR, which attributed the report to a top official with the 1st Marine Division, said the rockets, BM-21 missiles, were equipped with sarin and mustard gas and were "ready to fire." It quoted the source as saying new U.S. intelligence data showed the chemicals were "not just trace elements."

It said the cache was discovered by Marines with the 101st Airborne Division, which was following up behind the Army after it seized Baghdad's international airport.

Reply #1473 Top
Well, it seems that the war is almost over, and it turned out that the dangerous threat that Saddam represented, was in fact a sorry excuse for an army. From what I read and heard so far, all his equipment so far are more than 10 years old and totally obsolete.
A tyranical governement for his own people, sure, but not a threat for any other country it seems.

Xerraire, I'm waiting to see that news confirmed in other news site. So far, nothing.
Reply #1474 Top
No
I don't think so
The link that moshi had I think is an entire different article, and indeed are drums full of pesticide.
Reply #1475 Top
paxx what would have been your answer to his genocide and reign of terror on his own people then?