grayhaze grayhaze

Rips - A discussion

Rips - A discussion

Over recent months, I have noticed an alarming rise in copyright theft amongst the skinning community. It only takes a quick look through this very message board to find numerous reports of unauthorised modification and redistribution of WindowBlinds skins, icons and wallpapers.

It's really encouraging to see that skinning is becoming an everyday part of computer use and, as Frogboy tells us time and time again, skinning is constantly on the rise. It seems however that this public exposure has a downside. As more people discover skinning, so the 'ripping' trend continues to grow.

I have to admit that a large factor in my decision to stop skinning was the fact that I had little or no control over the use of my work once it had been released to the public. I got tired of finding threads on various boards around the net where people were simultaniously bad-mouthing me while ripping my skins and passing them off as their own. I'm sure I'm not alone.

So what can we as skinners do about copyright theft? There has to come a point when we can no longer chase those who steal our work, as the situation grows beyond our capacity to monitor it. It's obvious that much of the problem stems from a lack of education and information on the subject, as it's a commonly held misconception that anything you find on the Internet is free to use as you wish. We obviously need to find a way to spread the message that copyright theft is a crime. It's common sense that stealing physical property is theft, so why not digital property?

Is there any way for us to actively protect our work? Digital watermarking goes some way toward settling disputes over ownership, but such techniques hardly lend themselves to skins which often contain large numbers of tiny images.

I'd like to hear any ideas you have on the issue, and perhaps we can start to find a way out of this mess before it truly gets out of hand.
14,038 views 56 replies
Reply #26 Top
Maybe, cause the power of many is definitely greater than the power of one. But I still doubt that it would amount to anything..

Did ya check out the other thread by Weaksid? If SD can't protect its own suites from being ripped, do single entities like us have any hope?
Reply #27 Top
sure, though it takes time and control on your part...

the art of communication

That is where psychology, social norms and personal abnormalities of personality comes into play

example: If a person is breaking the rules by posting skins for download on a site without the correct permission, maybe pointing out the facts and requesting that they remove the skins and then seek permission, would in fact open their site up to even more quality skins and such and also a means of communication with the authors.

Would probably be more productive than an email of 500 emails demanding cease the action, or else. Then you are left with the person thinking "Or else what? hahahahaha" so you end up missing your chance from the start in a positive solution to the situation.

Of course it is a bit different when someone is stealing skins and then selling them as if they own them in a commercial package such as the Delphi add on site is doing.

With them I would contact them, their ISP/Hosting service, Online sales provider and Delphi itself... Either they are not legally allowed to make use of that registered trade mark "Delphi" or they broke their contract for that use by stealing and selling stolen products while doing so with the impression of Delphi's support...





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Reply #28 Top
I gotta be up at 5.00 am for a full day at the Grand Prix...so can't spend a lot of time on this thread/topic...but it is the responsibility of each and EVERY skinner/artist involved in our 'craft' to do all they can to help locate and end this occurence.
Any single thing you can do is just one little GOOD step towards combatting it.

Be vigilant and respond....that's all....
Reply #29 Top


have great fun and be safe!

really really...


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Reply #30 Top
If it ever happens to me I promise to stamp my feet, jump up and down and then pout for a while.....that outta fix 'em.

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Reply #31 Top
Lucky ***!!! I wish I was at the Grand Prix (I am assuming here that you are talking about the F1 roadshow, Jafo)
Reply #32 Top
Costs aside, now is probably a good a time as any to stop ripping what with he DMCA being such a popular vehicle for companies/organizations to stop anyone they believe is trampling on their rights. You have the record industry going after napster, kazaa, etc. and I read the other day Lexmark is using the DMCA to try to stop 3rd party ink cartridge makers from making ink carts for their printers. The courts right now are taking a pretty lenient view on the DMCA.
Theft is theft. It's funny that it takes an 'act' to spur a lot of the lawsuits going on right now.
Reply #33 Top
as long as OS ripping is considered ok it will be pretty hard to explain your points to somebody who is unbiased and not part of our/your scene.
there is even an OS rip (of a very well known skinner) that has the JPEG artifacts of the screenshot it was cutted and pasted from in the caption buttons.
now when you see an other rip of this OS all you cry and say it´s a rip. "this is ...... by ....... !!!"
i still wonder how this skinner can have any copyright on a design that was done by others. she can claim a copyright on the UIS file, but that is all in my eyes.
Reply #34 Top
Good point, moshi. Reminds me of the joke I made when releasing the Sountox suite : 'No upcoming OS harmed with this release.'

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Reply #35 Top
I think it is more that the author holds copyright on the graphics they produce and any modification of those specific graphics or misuse is a breach of copyright...

unless as with Apple or Microsoft, if you produce anything within a specific are of copyright material they hold, they assume ownership of the copyright, I think?

have to read up on that and see, now it will niggle around between my ears if I don't


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Reply #36 Top
Here are just a few points based on what's been said so far.

Digital watermarking doesn't have to cost more than the one-off fee for a watermarking application or plugin. It's true that there are companies who maintain a database of watermarks created with their technology, and demand a fee for this service, but there are also other solutions which simply encode the information into the image and leave it at that. It's then your responsibility to keep a copy of the original image together with the watermarked one for any disputes that may arise.

Simply burning your files to a CD doesn't ensure that you're protected. It's not hard to change the system time and date on your machine to three years previous before burning the CD.

A much better and very inexpensive way of protecting your copyrights would be to post that CD to yourself through the regular postal service of your country. The package will then arrive at your doorstep with a postmarked date which will provide firm legal evidence in the case of the dispute. Just don't open it when it arrives!

It's also worth remembering that these days copyright is implied the moment you create any art, be it physical or digital. Gone are the days when you had to pay to register each and every work of art to protect your intellectual property. It's not even necessary to mark the image anywhere with a copyright notice, although this makes your ownership more obvious to any potential thief.

On the issue of encrypting skins to prevent ripping, there's one important thing that you need to remember - the PrtScn button. It's ridiculously easy for any ripper to simply apply the skin to their system/application and then take a screen grab. In many ways this actually makes it easier for a ripper to create a 'port' than sifting through the individual bitmaps that make up the original skin. All they need to do is cut up the image into whatever form serves their needs.

That's why it's almost impossible to prevent a determined ripper from stealing your work. I say 'almost' because I'm still hopeful that some ingenious developer out there will be able to find a way to stop even this from happening. Is there a way to simply stop the skin graphics from showing up in a screen grab?

Lastly, a couple of you were discussing OS rips and the fact that their existence damages any chance of claiming ownership on original works. I have to say that I disapprove of OS rips completely. I actually see little point in them, aside from appealing to those people who aren't aware that anything different exists.

For a long time I think new WindowBlinds users thought the purpose of the application was to make their desktop look like OSX or Windows XP without actually buying the OS itself. In y opinion, the whole point of skinning is to create something better than what's already available.

I think that if there were to be that one groundbreaking lawsuit that we all seem to need so desperately, it should come from the likes of Apple or Microsoft. Apple in particular are well known for protecting their intellectual property, and their reach is global. All it would take is for one high-profile case from a well known company, and I think we would be on our way to that education that's needed so much.

Speaking of which, I agree with the 'copyright disclaimer on every page of the site' idea too. It just makes sense.
Reply #37 Top
Once I get going, I really say a lot!

I even give IPlural a run for his money...
Reply #38 Top
grayhaze, there are methods to hide .txt files inside .JPG's (or is that .BMPs?). Can that work?
Reply #39 Top
In the particular case of Windowblinds, it is now possible to have a pop up text displayed when a skin is applied. If skinners used that option, then the "ignorance" factor could be eliminated. Rips of the said skin are then absolutely deliberate.
Reply #40 Top
That's basically what digital watermarking does @shu. It hides text containing the author name and contact details into an image either visually through an imperceptible 'noise' or through the use of extended tags on certain image formats.

So the answer to your question is yes, it can work. If you keep a copy of the original image together with a copy of the image after it has been 'watermarked', then you're at least safeguarding yourself should a dispute over ownership arise. However, what we really need is a way to prevent the situation from ever going that far in the first place.
Reply #41 Top
That's true paxx, but what we're also seeing is a lot of ripping from screen grabs of desktops posted on the web. In that case, the ripper could claim ignorance. That's why I think finding a way to prevent those screen grabs from being taken is important.

I don't want to sound like a complete killjoy though. I understand that people want to show off when they've found an attractive look for their desktop, and that in many cases those grabs are good advertising for the particular skin. So there's never going to be a way to please all the people.
Reply #42 Top
Greyhaze: If I couldn't take a screengrab, how would I make a screenshot to display on WinCustomize when I make a new skin? Or am I missing the point?
Reply #43 Top
I hadn't thought of that BoXXi.

There was a time when we didn't use full desktop images to show our new skins though. Maybe there's some in-between where it's possible to get a good idea of how a skin looks, whilst not providing enough graphics in the shot to reproduce the skin. For example, a lot of the sites with skins for Kalidoscope (sic), the Mac alternative to WindowBlinds, only show the top-right corner of the window with a couple of buttons. It's still not perfect, but it's an idea.

We as skinners have to try and make life as hard for the rippers as possible. At the moment, we're basically handing them our work on a plate.
Reply #44 Top
Of course, there's pretty much no way whatsoever of stopping wallpapers from being stolen. They are by definition just basic image files which sit on your hard disk, so no work even needs to be done to redistribute them.

I did have an idea for applications like WindowBlinds and IconPackager though. If you have a skin/theme loaded through one of these applications then perhaps that application could intercept any attempt to make a screen grab, and black out the relevant areas in the resulting image. You could then follow the idea mentioned previously of skins being distributed in some proprietary encrypted format which hides the raw image files. With the combination of those two things, it would be considerably more difficult for a ripper to extract the images themselves.
Reply #45 Top
Sorry, I think that is a little too much protection thinking, not to say overbloating. Reminds me of Microsoft... Maybe I just remember the old c-64 times when the game industry protected the floppies to death. You had to try up to ten times to load Your original and paid game... Next time we give away dongles with the skins ?

And I am all against that 'no screenshot' idea. I always find them interesting.


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Reply #46 Top
input !!!!


very good things to file away and remember for future use for sure

I like the idea of mailing it to yourself, my stepbrothers friend did that with a couple of songs and it actually paid off in the end. She was traveling the state here in Florida playing at different live unplugged clubs and coffee shops and someone heard a couple of her originals and then changed them a bit and tried to get them cut and released as their own. The only thing that really saved her in the end was the registered letters she had sent and not opened with her different songs in them. SHes only released one
compilation of song "Shouting at Mary" but that was when the problems came about for her.

totally forgot about that

As far as OS rips go, it's a personal choice, but, for me it would be a question of why?
Art for me is self expression, release of those things inside to the outside without having to explain it all, kind of making it real and yet holding it private. Anyway....

I guess that is why Geiger ~scarab and misery seem so attractive to me in the artistic sense.

on the desktop image thingy, maybe a protected file attribute so it can not be copied out of the cache folder and a brokwn image when someone mouses over it?


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Reply #47 Top
c242 remember Lotus and that damn floppy key?
talk about a pain in the butt...

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Reply #48 Top
I don't know exactly anymore what program it is, I have to look it up, but it is able to scramble code. It makes things hard to change and only with programs like icepick you can read them, but its nearly imposible to addept it that way. by the way, you can put a password on a zip file, can you put a password on a windowblindsfile?
Reply #49 Top
Hmm another thought came to my mind : If for example WB-skins would have a certain 1 file format like msstyles, how long would it possibly take that someones comes along and does a program similar to stylesxp that hacks this format ? 1 month ?

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Reply #50 Top
so true...

I guess limiting for one things limits for everything in the end...
sad...


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