I do like your cartoons! They are brilliant!

I just find em, I don't draw em.

Please keep finding them and putting them here, they are very enjoyable.

Gah!!!!! That was the whole point!! He didn't keep them. He just SAID he did. That's why Jesus said to go and sell all you have and follow me. Jesus knew what his heart was full of. It was full of money...not God. So he broke the very first commandment and probably more and didn't know it Coveting comes to mind as well.



oh! So you're saying that only those who "went up" walked with God? So I can't say I walk with God because I'm not taken up? Then why does Paul tell us to walk worthy of God? When we say we are following God, we say we are walking with him. Only when we walk with God can we work for him.



Simple belief is enough. When the Jailer asked the Apostles "What must I do to be saved, The Apostles said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved." That's it. Nothing more is needed for salvation. The work begins from that moment on but has no bearing on your being added to God's family. Are you familiar with Eph 2:8-9?



Ok now this I can find common ground with you. All I'm saying is you CAN be rich and not have money be your master. Some of the rich people in scripture were rich because God blessed them with wealth and they gave God the credit and helped others with it. Joseph is another that comes to mind. God, on purpose, gave him much wealth and he was able to do good with it. Boaz was another (book of Ruth). He was rich but was kind and helpful towards Naomi. Like I said, Job was blessed also with riches when God doubled all his possessions.

So it's not about riches, it's about not having riches get in the way of your relationship with God.

It is not about the love of money, it's not about money itself, money is a thing. Jesus knew that he'd kept the commandments that he'd asked him about, however he didn't ask him about the first commandment because he knew that he was full of self love and self importance and money is an indication of self love and self importance. And Jesus loved him for the ones that he had kept, and knew that he'd kept them, that's why he asked him specifically about just those few and not the first. Read the passage again. It is about the love of self and self concern. There is a difference between being blessed with the material by god, and going out and seeking it on your own for yourself and your own well being Listen to your own words, "Joseph was GIVEN wealth by god, he did not seek it himself. Job was only blessed with the material after everything, not just money by the way, was taken from him to see what he loved the most, himself or god. Boaz may have been wealthy and kind towards Naomi, but that does not mean that he walked with god. Being kind is not a qualifying factor. There are many that are kind, but few that walk with god.

And it is not about riches getting in the way of a relationship with god, it's about self importance getting in the way, riches are only a sign of self importance

I didn't say that you couldn't be taken up, but those that walk with god are. If you walk with god you will be, if not, you won't. And you can not walk with god if you are self concerned and have self importance.

There are only three talked about in the bible that were, that doesn't however mean that there were only three in the entire history of mankind. The Buddha was also taken up, he is not however talked about in the bible. He knew nothing of Jesus, but he did know about self importance and self concern. He was a young prince who renounced of his own free will, self importance, and by extension all those things of the world that indicate self importance, including wealth.

Why do you think Jesus said what he did about a wealthy man entering the kingdom of heaven? Because it only applied to that specific wealthy young man? And why do you think that the apostles were so concerned about "who would be saved?", and in their concern about themselves being saved, specifically pointed out to Jesus that they had given up everything to follow him? And why do you think that Jesus said to them, "he who is first now shall be last, and he who is now last shall be first?". He said it because they still had self concern and self importance as indicated by the fact that they had pointed out to him that they'd left all behind to follow him.

The words "believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved" does not mean that just believing that the man existed is enough. It means that one must believe in what he did, that he left self importance behind and walked with god because he did, and that all of mankind is capable of doing the same. It has never been about the messenger, the messenger is nothing, it has always been about the message, that is what is important.

It always seems to come to this. Those that believe belief is what its all about and those that say living out the life is the key.

Often, when called on it, those that hold the belief is everything view backpedal to say something like, well you must believe with all your heart and all your being and if this is so, you will act the part, so to speak.  Thus getting to the same place as saying walk the walk.

At the same time they are quick to add that no matter how much you walk, if there is no "belief" then the walk is essentially pointless.

Zen says the walk and the belief are the same. In each case we are manifesting our Buddha nature just with different organs. But it goes a step further, and that is to say, that both cases aren't what we say they are, they are just what we say they are.  What is it before the words or the acts?

 

Belief?  Works? Deeds?  Acts? Salvation?  Just words, concepts.

We say, at the conclusion of the Wisdom Heart sutra, "Gone, gone, gone to the other shore, attained the other shore, to beyond the other shore, having never left."

In other words, heaven and hell, this life and the life beyond, beginning, middle, and end, nirvana, samsara, are all one in the same. Awakening, like salvation, is to realize it.

Be well.

I agree words are just concepts, but words are all we have to talk about it with. They are inadequate to be sure. Belief is not necessary. And quite often "beliefs' get in the way, because they are preconceptual. We as humans quite often reject that which we do not believe, even when we see and experience it. We decide that because our beliefs say that it is not possible, it is not. We will reject what we have seen or experienced either through denial, that it never happened, to deciding it was our imaginations or a trick of the light, or hallucinations, or even on the basis that our friends, family, religion, or society says it's not, etc. The list is endless.

I agree that everything is the same, and all can be experienced. Awakening or awareness, however requires an act as well as intent on our part. We are all at one time or another touched by "power" or spirit if you will, (power not to be confused with earthly power, but the power of the all) and we will either recognize it and act on it, or it will pass us by either through non-recognition of it, or downright refusal of it.

KFC POSTS:

The last thing I want is to turn So Daiho's blog into a debate over Luther's doctrine of "Justification by faith alone".

For eternal salvation, belief isn't enough....for St.James tells us that even demons believe. Faith cannot be separated from good works.

Belief or faith is the first step but that alone doesn't guarantee salvation. Belief (having faith) and love of God comes first, then good works flow from love of God and neighbor.

St.James 2 sums it pretty much, "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Shall faith be able to save him? If a brother or sister be naked and want daily food, and one of you say to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled" without giving them those things needed for the body, what shall it profit? So faith also, if it has not works, is dead in itself."

But some man will say, "You have faith and I have works" Show me your faith without works and I will show you, by works, my faith. You believe that there is one God, you do well. Even the demons believe and tremble."

 

Lula, I appreciate this point of view,.  I think we can go far deeper than this. We need to walk in ways deeper than faith or deeds. To walk with God is to be have immanency with Him.  No dualism. Thus the aim of a disciplined spiritual practice is to collapse dualistic existence. All religions I am aware of eventually get to this place and, in the end, recognize that the labels, as Nightshades points out  about belief, get in our way.

Be well.

 

They are both essential. It's like a two way ticket so to speak. They are attached in a way. Our works are evidence of our belief. We work OUT our salvation not FOR our salvation. God calls his people to do his work. We will be known by our deeds says Christ. But our deeds is NOT what gets us into heaven. It's our belief in the one who died for us. That is the key.



Then why does scripture say..."the love of money is the root of all evil?"

Notice it doesn't say money is the root of all evil.



because they knew they couldn't be good enough so the question was who is good enough to enter heaven? They were saying....How can I enter heaven if even the Pharisees (who were considered righteous) were not going to go to heaven because of their OWN righteousness, which was not good enough?



as far as I know the Buddha was buried and there is a tomb for him.



Then why was that the answer given to the question...."what must I do to be saved?"



It's all about the messenger (Christ) and you cannot separate the message from the messenger....now if you're speaking about other messengers like me or anyone who preaches the gospel then I'd agree with you. It's not about me at all. It's about the gospel which is the message. Even John the Baptist said...."I must decrese and HE must increase."

What may I ask do you define as "good works?" And why do you feel that they flow from god?



For you Sohaido:

I speak in christian terms because that is what is familiar to christians, and they have somewhat of an understanding of what they mean. One wouldn't speak Russian to a Greek and expect them to understand would they? Using terms like nirvana and samsara although they are adequate terms and accurate terms are terms that most christians are not familiar with and they most generally have little to no understanding of them. To speak and say that all is one and the same is certainly accurate and true to those that have seen and have experienced it. For christians "heaven" is something that exists elsewhere, another place to which they will go. To insist that it is here and now they will not believe because they do not see it or experience it. It is like with an infant. No child is born learning how to run, first the infant must learn to hold up it's head, and then to roll over, sit, stand, walk, and then run. First christians and all of us no matter the religion, must learn to see, and in order to do that they must first put self aside. When they can see they will experience and with that understanding will follow. (By the way I know "understanding" is not an accurate term, but it will have to suffice because there is no adequate term to use that they will know.)

yes Lula we know the Catholic dogma. Works are necessary for salvation according to the CC. It's a Catholic belief but not a biblical one. Abraham was SAVED before his works. It says so in Genesis and Romans. We are not saved by our works. Our works of righteousness is as filthy rags. It says so all thru scripture. God doesn't want our works or our sacrifices...he wants our hearts. Only then will our works be accepted. It's works out of a clean heart that God desires.

It's true there is a relationship between works and faith, but its not works that save us. Our works point to our faith.

The jailer was not told...."believe on the Lord Jesus and do good works and then you'll be saved." He wasn't told...."believe on the Lord Jesus and join the CC and be saved." he wasn't told..."believe on the Lord Jesus and keep the 10 commandments to be saved."

No he was told to believe on the one who did the work of salvation. Believe on the one who atoned ( means covered) once and for all your sins. Without this covering (kaphar) we would be exposed and dirty in the eyes of God.

Before salvation our works are likened to dirty rags. We cover ourself in our own works of righteousness and we think we're good. Remember Adam and Eve covered themselves in the garden when they realized they sinned? What did God do? He sacrificed an animal to cover them. It was a picture of the future Messiah who would give his life to cover our sins. We are only cleansed by the blood of the Lamb that was shed for us but only if we believe and accept HIS WORK on the cross first.

Otherwise we will stand naked and ashamed one day in front of our maker. Each one has to answer for his sin and there was only one provision given to wipe out our sin debt. We either accept that or keep on working pushing Christ away.

Good works from God's perspective is what gives HIM glory. We need to examine ourselves from time to time. Are we doing these good works for our own benefit or for God? Are we doing good things to get a pat on the back or are we doing these works to further the gospel?

Paul speaks about a future time when our works will be tested by fire. Paul said this:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself wil be saved but only as one escaping thru the flames." 1 Cor 3:11:15

This shows here that even if one's work wasn't good he will still be saved with no works to claim. This shows that it's not our works that get us into heaven. But our works will be tested and proved. The fire will either refine or burn our works.

The whole purpose here is to deal with us as stewards not sinners.

Why does the scripture say "money is the root of all evil", because money is a symtom of self importance, it is not "evil" in itself, as you so very aptly pointed out earlier.

Faith is not enough, and neither is belief or even acts. Faith and belief are human concepts as Sohaido so correctly pointed out. They are a starting point, but they are not the end and the whole.

No where in the passage does it read because they knew that the pharisees were called righteous men or even believed in their own righteousness. Although the point is well taken. To think one is righteous is a sign of self importance and that would prevent their place in heaven. The conversation between Jesus and the apostles was over wealth, not the pharisees, they are not even mentioned there.

The answer to the question "what must I do to be saved" is love god with all your heart and mind", to do that thing is to leave self behind.

Buddha was taken up, and returned of his own free will in order to help others acheive the same. Just as Jesus was taken up and also shall return. Simply because his body was missing doesn't mean that he occupied the same body in death that he occupied in life. I said once before that the apostles did not recognize him. Common sense would tell anyone that to not recognize someone would require a change in looks. And with that subject I will go no further, you wouldn't understand what that concept means, at least not yet.

So tell me what is the difference between you and Jesus? Or between Jesus and Buddha? It is not nor ever has been about the messenger. It is about the message. Both Jesus and Buddha spoke the same message although they lived in different parts of the world and at different times. One was the son of a carpenter, the other a prince. Yet both became more because of the message. Do you recall when the apostles told Jesus that they had chided a man who was not of them for working miracles? And do you recall what Jesus told them?

I see, and tell me how will you know what is a work of god, and what is a work of yourself?

We can do no works of god. We can however let god work through us, but it is god's decision and not our own as to what those works will be. And god will only work through us when we are capable of setting self aside. It is not the pen that does the composing, just the writing. It is the author that does the composing and the pen is simply a tool. We are the tool, not the author.

Nightshades....was it you who said Robert Morris, signer of the declaration was a Jew?

Because I just read this:

Morris worshiped in Philadelphia at St Peter's Church on Pine Street and Christ Church on 2nd Street, both of which were run by his brother-in-law, Rev. William White.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Morris_(financier)

doesn't sound very Jewish to me. Nor can I find any indication he was. Where are you getting your info?



it is if you believe scripture is true, which I do. So for you maybe not.



not in this particular passage, but another. In Matt 5:20 Christ said this:

"For I say to you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven."

The Pharisees righteousness was external not internal.



absolutely agree with you here.



and what are you citing for proof of this?



He didn't change in looks. He still had the scars on his hands and feet and side. So how did he change? I mean he did change a bit because his body was now glorified, but he was still recognizable which is scars are proof of that.

When we die the bible says we will receive glorified bodies. We will be the same but different. We will exchange our earthly imperfect bodies for perfect glorified ones.



A ton. The best diff is the fact that Jesus died for us. He went to the cross and gave his life for ours. It was called a propitiation. He was our substitute just like the lambs were the substitute in the Torah. But they were perpetual substitutes. Christ was the end of the sacrifices. There is no more sacrifice to be had for sin.

What did Buddah do for you? Did he die for you?

Buddah is buried in a tomb, Christ is not. Christ is God. Buddah is not. Just a few differences here to begin with.



No they did not share the same message. Jesus preached the good news of the gospel. What is the gospel? That he came to die for our sins. Buddah did not preach this. Jesus came to show us that he was the only way. He came and told us that he was God who would die for the world so that whoever believed would be saved. Did Buddah preach this?



They were working in the name of Jesus. And Jesus said those working for him were not against him. Has nothing to do with Buddah.

sometimes it can be hard. That's why I said we have to examine ourselves from time to time. We need to ask ourselves, is it me who is benefitting or is it God? Am I giving glory to God or am I taking the glory for myself. That's why you see athletes point above giving God credit for their success. They want others to know they are doing what they do to give God all the credit and glory.



I agree and I used this to show the inspiration of the bible. Just as we use a pen to write down our thoughts God used his prophets and writers to write down his thoughts as he breathed his ideas and thoughts into their spirits. We use various instruments and colors for writing and so did God.

I don't think that you understood the question. What makes you know that it is gods works and not your own? Self examination has to do with self, not god. And who benefits from the work is not a defining factor either. God's works are quite often to our benefit, even when we are the ones performing the act.

I must say you do have an understanding of how god works, as evidenced by your last statments about the prophets.

So Daiho posts: #163



Here your charge is specifically against the Catholic Church saying they tortured and killed Jews over centuries..from the 400s on. When I asked for examples, you came back with a timeline on anti-Semitism from Wikipedia which I've reviewed extensively.

Yes, agreed without doubt, that over those centuries Jews were isolated and restricted from the Catholic population, confined to live in separate areas, forced to wear yellow identification bands, etc. However, I didn't find reports of the Catholic Church "systematiclly torturing and killing Jews" over this vast period of time. As a matter of fact, of the Catholic Popes, the Jewish Encyclopedia reports:

General Principles.

The Roman Church does not claim any jurisdiction over persons who have not been baptized; therefore the relations of the popes, as the heads of the Church, to the Jews have been limited to rules regarding the political, commercial, and social conditions under which Jews might reside in Christian states. As sovereigns of the Papal States the popes further had the right to legislate on the status of their Jewish subjects. Finally, voluntary action was occasionally taken by the popes on behalf of the Jews who invoked their aid in times of persecution, seeking their mediation as the highest ecclesiastical authorities. The general principles governing the popes in their treatment of the Jews are practically identical with those laid down in the Justinian Code: (1) to separate them from social intercourse with Christians as far as possible; (2) to prevent them from exercising any authority over Christians, either in a public (as officials) or a private capacity (as masters or employers); (3) to arrange that the exercise of the Jewish religion should not assume the character of a public function. On the other hand, however, the popes have always condemned, theoretically at least, (1) acts of violence against the Jews, and (2) forcible baptism.

I might also add that the 1555 papal bull, Cum nimis absurdum, of Pope Paul IV that you cited has a notation at the bottom that it's an "editor's insert" and that the full translation is unavailable( whatever that means). I've checked the Vatican website and cannot find that papal bull and also in checking out internet biographies of Pope Paul IV couldn't find a reference to it as well.



Trust, truth, love ...Alas! it's hard to find anywhere in this world.

Pax Christi.

Lula, Jews are heretics, the Inquisition sought out, investigated, tortured and burned at the stake heretics. Its simple logic.  Moreover, by the Church's attitude during the course of the centuries as regards unbelievers it clearly (at least tacitly) supported anti-semitism. Much of this lad to pograms, massive forced relocations, etc.  We will probably not come close to understanding each other on this specific issue and its implications.  I can accept that. 

Be well.

 

 

Dear KFC, once we get past (or underneath) the language, both Buddha and Jesus preached essentially the same message: unselfish love.  Buddha both lived and died for humanity, as did Jesus.  He taught people how to transcend themselves, as did Jesus.  While Jesus (or at least his messingers and apostles) were much more focused on saving a soul for heaven's sake, Buddha's focus was on this life, understanding that this life and eternal life are one. Yet, I am convinced Jesus himself was far more concerned with how we actually lived our lives and manifested our godly nature, or as Buddha would have put it, our true nature.

I don'tthink things are quite as simple as you make them out to be.  The text is just text, like a finger pointing to the moon.  We should not mistake one for the other.

Be well.

 

No way So Daiho, are you ever, ever going to convince me that heaven and hell are one in the same!

So Daiho,

The Jews that are heretics are ONLY those who, for whatever reason, back in the days of the Inquisition became baptized in the Chruch and then, for whatever reasons, were charged with committing heresy. Those Jews are the only Jews the Church sought out.


I agree we still have a way to go to come to some common understanding on this one. In the meantime, I've learned a thing or two from this discussion and appreciate the opportunity of being invited to participate. I thoroughly enjoy getting to know more about how others think about such issues.

 

Nor would I try, Lula.  I will say this, heaven and hell are not real, tangible places, but rather states of mind, attitudes we can get stuck in.  They are what we make of our lives.

Another point of disagreement, I am sure.  No worries.

Be well.