Sodaiho Sodaiho

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

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Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

staging a messiahship

from JoeUser Forums

With palms together,

 

There is an interesting article in the N Y Times today about a stone tablet found amid the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Apparently it suggests that the notion of a suffering messiah who would rise in three days was a common belief in the century prior to the Christian Jesus.

 

The article suggests:

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

 

Hmmm. The death and resurrection myth prior to Jesus' birth?  It would seem this adds to the notion advance some decades ago by a Jewish scholar suggesting this whole Jesus script was a scheme to get Jesus recognized as the Messiah, that Jesus was aware of the things that needd to happen before they happened in order to meet the criteria.

 

And later:

 

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.

“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said. “This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”

 

Strange.

Link

Be well

 

 

 

 

religion
924,048 views 969 replies
Reply #201 from Stardock Forums Top

Lula,

Let me toss something at you for you to think about (And please give it some thought before you reply, because I understand your upbringing/beliefs.).

What if Hell is merely where we are now? What if Earth is hell, and the fire and brimstone?  That's what I believe, that we live in hell or a hell like place. I guess it would be sort of similar to what Sodaiho is saying.

Reply #202 from JoeUser Forums Top
What may I ask do you define as "good works?" And why do you feel that they flow from god?
End of quote


In a nutshell, "Good works" or "good deeds" are actions of deepening our love of God for His sake and love our neighbor as oursleves.

Believing in God and that Jesus is the Christ is a central element of Catholic faith. However, Christ Himself makes it clear that it is not enough simply to believe that this is the truth.

Christ instructed His apostles what it means to say that He was the Christ. He told them that anyone who would come after Him must deny himself, take up his own cross, and follow after the Lord. This gets to the heart of St. James saying faith without works is dead.

We can be quick to profess that Jesus is the Christ and we believe in Him, but when it comes to taking up our cross (doing good works) and following Him, there aren't very many people left. Faith isn't about believing in the existence of God or that Jesus is the Christ...for as St.James says, even satan and the demons know GOd exists and that Jesus is God. We must do better than that...way better than that...it wasn't enough that the demons believed to keep them out of Hell.

So, we have to act on the belief or faith that we profess to gain eternal salvation.

And why do you feel that they flow from god?
End of quote


Catholic theology holds that only when a person has the supernatural virtue of charity (love of God for His sake) that good works become possible.

From belief comes love...love of God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and love of neighbor as thyself.

St.James tells us that part of acting on our faith in God and love of Christ and following Him is the performance of the works of love...there are 7 corporal works of love...feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, harboring the homeless, visiting the sick, visiting the imprisoned, and burying the dead.

We should also be willing to take up our own cross and follow Him by actions of spiritual works such as instructing the ignorant, counseling the doubtful, comforting the sorrowful, bearing wrongs patiently, forgiving injuries, and praying for one another and doing penance for the conversion of sinners and the salvation of souls.

These things are hard, but in order to take up our cross and follow Him, we must put our faith into practice through good works of love (charity).



Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #203 from JoeUser Forums Top
What if Hell is merely where we are now? What if Earth is hell, and the fire and brimstone? That's what I believe, that we live in hell or a hell like place. I guess it would be sort of similar to what Sodaiho is saying.
End of quote


it sounds like that saying that goes:

This earth is the only heaven unbelievers will ever know and the only hell believers will ever know.

Reply #204 from JoeUser Forums Top
both Buddha and Jesus preached essentially the same message: unselfish love.
End of quote


and that is true. There are some Buddahist beliefs that are not contrary to Christian beliefs but there is still a world of diff between the two.

Yet, I am convinced Jesus himself was far more concerned with how we actually lived our lives and manifested our godly nature, or as Buddha would have put it, our true nature.
End of quote


Jesus was very concerned about our attitude, yes. He was concerned how we used what he gave us, but he made it clear that our home was not this earth. He did not want us to get too comfortable here. He spoke many times about leaving and bringing us back with him when he returns and that this earth will be destroyed someday. We are visitors here. This is not our home.

What makes you know that it is gods works and not your own? Self examination has to do with self, not god. And who benefits from the work is not a defining factor either. God's works are quite often to our benefit, even when we are the ones performing the act.
End of quote


To some extent you're right about how we can still benefit by doing God's work. For instance when we do God's work whether it be giving of our time or substance we have peace and joy in knowing it's not ours to begin with and that we are being good stewards of what he's given us. Ultimately (in the hereafter) we will be rewarded but many times on this side of eternity we are not.

There are times when we get hurt or persecuted even some to the point of death as they go about doing God's work. Christ is our ultimate example. But look at the Prophets and see how they fared. Paul receieved 195 stripes on his back for doing God's work. He was stoned and left for dead, beaten, ridiculed and run out of town for what? Doing God's work. Same with Jeremiah who was miserable most of the time. And then there is the trials of Joseph, Noah, Jonah etc. Oh...and John the Baptist was beheaded. And all the Apostles were killed for their faith and work. But thru it all they did demonstrate faith and peace in God. It's God's gift to his own. As we go thru these trials we are aware that he is right beside us.

Our works will never contradict the written word. Jesus said to go and tell. Sometimes just going and telling can get us in a load of trouble.

Reply #205 from JoeUser Forums Top
Nightshades....was it you who said Robert Morris, signer of the declaration was a Jew? Because I just read this:Morris worshiped in Philadelphia at St Peter's Church on Pine Street and Christ Church on 2nd Street, both of which were run by his brother-in-law, Rev. William White.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Morris_(financier)doesn't sound very Jewish to me. Nor can I find any indication he was. Where are you getting your info?
Faith is not enough, and neither is belief or even acts.it is if you believe scripture is true, which I do. So for you maybe not.
No where in the passage does it read because they knew that the pharisees were called righteous men or even believed in their own righteousnessnot in this particular passage, but another. In Matt 5:20 Christ said this:"For I say to you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees righteousness was external not internal.
The answer to the question "what must I do to be saved" is love god with all your heart and mind", to do that thing is to leave self behind.absolutely agree with you here.
Buddha was taken up, and returned of his own free will in order to help others acheive the sameand what are you citing for proof of this?
Common sense would tell anyone that to not recognize someone would require a change in looks. And with that subject I will go no further, you wouldn't understand what that concept means, at least not yet.He didn't change in looks. He still had the scars on his hands and feet and side. So how did he change? I mean he did change a bit because his body was now glorified, but he was still recognizable which is scars are proof of that. When we die the bible says we will receive glorified bodies. We will be the same but different. We will exchange our earthly imperfect bodies for perfect glorified ones.
Or between Jesus and Buddha?A ton. The best diff is the fact that Jesus died for us. He went to the cross and gave his life for ours. It was called a propitiation. He was our substitute just like the lambs were the substitute in the Torah. But they were perpetual substitutes. Christ was the end of the sacrifices. There is no more sacrifice to be had for sin. What did Buddah do for you? Did he die for you? Buddah is buried in a tomb, Christ is not. Christ is God. Buddah is not. Just a few differences here to begin with.
Both Jesus and Buddha spoke the same messageNo they did not share the same message. Jesus preached the good news of the gospel. What is the gospel? That he came to die for our sins. Buddah did not preach this. Jesus came to show us that he was the only way. He came and told us that he was God who would die for the world so that whoever believed would be saved. Did Buddah preach this?
Do you recall when the apostles told Jesus that they had chided a man who was not of them for working miracles? And do you recall what Jesus told them?They were working in the name of Jesus. And Jesus said those working for him were not against him. Has nothing to do with Buddah.
End of quote



No I didn't say that Robert Morris was a jew, I said that Robert Morris and an unnamed jew financed the Continental Congress. I know Robert Morris was not a jew, he was one of my ancestors, and the information comes not only from family history but from the encyclopedia Brittanica.

Your belief in the scripture is based strictly on your interpretation, or what someone else has interpretted for you, of it. Not on what is actually written. Such as god wants you to be wealthy, but Jesus says that a wealthy man has less chance of entering heaven than a camel has to enter the eye of a needle. It can't be both ways. It is one thing to be given wealth by god, another to seek it oneself.

Buddha was taken up, perhaps not described in those exact words, but the idea is exactly the same. If you really want to know where I cite it from I suggest that you do some reading about the life of the Buddha. It would probably do you good to broaden your mind, not to mention the understanding of other religions.

He did change in looks, and scars by the way aren't looks. Looks are pretty much facial and scars on the torso, hands and feet don't qualify.

Citing proof from the Life of the Buddha. Which obviously you never read or bothered to find out about or you wouldn't ask, nor would you say that there was a difference between what the two taught.

And what do you cite that tells you that the "glorified body" will look the same? Being the same doesn't mean the same looks or the same features either, just the same person that you are inside, the outside "physical" is transient, it changes constantly.

Jesus once more did not die for you. Not you, not me, not anyone. He simply died willingly and publically so that all would know the truth of what he was saying. He died for the sins of the world, not your sins, nor any other human beings sins. Dying for the sins of the world means just that "worldly sins", and worldly sins are the sins of self, and believe it or not, we will all eventually do the same. The Buddha did the exact same thing, just not as publically. Your problem is that you want your religion to be unique and different, and the one and only religion that is the truth. It's not. And by the way that is also a sin, it's called the sin of pride, and that is a sin of self. Jesus Christ is not god. God is the "I AM". Jesus Christ is no longer a man as we know a man to be, and he like everyone has within him a spark of the divine, and by giving his will over to the will of god he is closer to god than we, but he is not God, anymore than you or I. And what he did for mankind, but mostly for the jewish people (and lets not forget that he was jewish and he preached to the jewish nation although all were welcome) was to show them that self importance could be overcome. That it is self importance that stands between us and god and causes us to sin.

By the way I never said that the passage had anything to do with the Buddha. You need to read more carefully.
Reply #206 from JoeUser Forums Top
What may I ask do you define as "good works?" And why do you feel that they flow from god?Good works from God's perspective is what gives HIM glory. We need to examine ourselves from time to time. Are we doing these good works for our own benefit or for God? Are we doing good things to get a pat on the back or are we doing these works to further the gospel? Paul speaks about a future time when our works will be tested by fire. Paul said this:"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself wil be saved but only as one escaping thru the flames." 1 Cor 3:11:15This shows here that even if one's work wasn't good he will still be saved with no works to claim. This shows that it's not our works that get us into heaven. But our works will be tested and proved. The fire will either refine or burn our works. The whole purpose here is to deal with us as stewards not sinners.
End of quote


You'd be better off reading the words of Jesus and god, not the words of Paul. Paul was not Jesus nor was he god. He interprets as he sees fit, and he was a man, no more no less. But I didn't ask how Paul defined good works, I asked how you did.
Reply #207 from JoeUser Forums Top
What may I ask do you define as "good works?" And why do you feel that they flow from god?In a nutshell, "Good works" or "good deeds" are actions of deepening our love of God for His sake and love our neighbor as oursleves.Believing in God and that Jesus is the Christ is a central element of Catholic faith. However, Christ Himself makes it clear that it is not enough simply to believe that this is the truth. Christ instructed His apostles what it means to say that He was the Christ. He told them that anyone who would come after Him must deny himself, take up his own cross, and follow after the Lord. This gets to the heart of St. James saying faith without works is dead. We can be quick to profess that Jesus is the Christ and we believe in Him, but when it comes to taking up our cross (doing good works) and following Him, there aren't very many people left. Faith isn't about believing in the existence of God or that Jesus is the Christ...for as St.James says, even satan and the demons know GOd exists and that Jesus is God. We must do better than that...way better than that...it wasn't enough that the demons believed to keep them out of Hell.So, we have to act on the belief or faith that we profess to gain eternal salvation.
And why do you feel that they flow from god?Catholic theology holds that only when a person has the supernatural virtue of charity (love of God for His sake) that good works become possible.From belief comes love...love of God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and love of neighbor as thyself. St.James tells us that part of acting on our faith in God and love of Christ and following Him is the performance of the works of love...there are 7 corporal works of love...feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, harboring the homeless, visiting the sick, visiting the imprisoned, and burying the dead. We should also be willing to take up our own cross and follow Him by actions of spiritual works such as instructing the ignorant, counseling the doubtful, comforting the sorrowful, bearing wrongs patiently, forgiving injuries, and praying for one another and doing penance for the conversion of sinners and the salvation of souls. These things are hard, but in order to take up our cross and follow Him, we must put our faith into practice through good works of love (charity).
End of quote


I didn't ask what St. James said, or thought or knew, nor what catholic theology teaches. I asked how YOU KNOW.
Reply #208 from JoeUser Forums Top
God decides, he doesn't need you or me or anyone else to decide what those works should be. He uses us just as we use the pen. It is not the pen that does the deciding, it is the writer. Anything that we or Paul, or James, or anyone else decides is a "good work" is their idea, not the idea of god. We will nver know what god decides until we shut up long enough to listen, and god will speak to us if we do. He speaks to us constantly but we are so busy with our own dialog that we never hear.
Reply #209 from JoeUser Forums Top

What may I ask do you define as "good works?" And why do you feel that they flow from god?
End of quote


I didn't ask what St. James said, or thought or knew, nor what catholic theology teaches. I asked how YOU KNOW.
End of quote


Nightshades,

Knock, knock, you there? Here are your 2 questions...as far as I can tell, you didn't ask me how I know.

I answered by defining "good works" and explaining how I know (not feel) that good works flow from Almighty God...and also added I know what I know through my studies of St.James (who wrote under God's inspiration) and through Catholic teaching on this particular subject.



Reply #210 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sodaiho posts:
I will say this, heaven and hell are not real, tangible places, but rather states of mind, attitudes we can get stuck in. They are what we make of our lives.
End of quote


SilentPoet posts:

(And please give it some thought before you reply, because I understand your upbringing/beliefs.).
End of quote


Good. I'm glad you understand from where my position on Hell comes. There is a Hell which which the justice of God created, to punish rebel angels and unrepentant human beings. Hell is eternal punishment(justice),a place of torment, for those who die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin on their soul.

What if Hell is merely where we are now? What if Earth is hell, and the fire and brimstone? That's what I believe, that we live in hell or a hell like place. I guess it would be sort of similar to what Sodaiho is saying.
End of quote


Earth is not an eternal place, and so since Hell is eternal, it can't be here.

In Genesis we're told that ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, we inherit the punishment. The earth is no longer a perfect, peaceful Garden of Paradise anymore. It's groaning towards its end and we, too must work, toil, suffer, feel pain, grow old before our physical end...death. To some, this toil, suffering, war, pain, etc. is Hell on earth. Yes, these things are bad, but there is always hope here for these bad things to get better or end, not so in Hell.

The modernists talk of Hell, portraying it on the big screen as Hell's Kitchen, Hell's Angels, Hells' Harbor, etc. They call this Hell on earth, but that's not the Hell Dante referred to when he said, "All hope abandon, ye who enter here." I can't top that.

Reply #211 from JoeUser Forums Top
No I didn't say that Robert Morris was a jew, I said that Robert Morris and an unnamed jew financed the Continental Congress
End of quote


ok, just checking. I found out that Morris was an Epicopalian.

Your belief in the scripture is based strictly on your interpretation, or what someone else has interpretted for you, of it. Not on what is actually written.
End of quote


No not really. I use other scripture to interpret scripture. I also teach the bible and have for years. So what exactly are you referring to specifically?

Buddha was taken up, perhaps not described in those exact words, but the idea is exactly the same. If you really want to know where I cite it from I suggest that you do some reading about the life of the Buddha. It would probably do you good to broaden your mind, not to mention the understanding of other religions.
End of quote


Well I have and if I remember correctly, he lived until about 115 and died and was buried. He was never taken up. So I ask again, where are you getting your info?

Jesus once more did not die for you.
End of quote


well according to the scriptures he did. Are you familiar with John 3:16 or John 1:29?

Your problem is that you want your religion to be unique and different, and the one and only religion that is the truth
End of quote


It is unique and diff. I don't have to wish it to be. What other great man died on the cross for another? Jesus said himself..."there is no greater love than one willing to give up his life for another."

Jesus Christ is not god.
End of quote


well he said he was. His works and deeds pointed to the fact he was. The OT Prophets spoke of him hundreds of years before proving he was...and his Apostles after his death wrote that he was indeed God in the flesh.

God is the "I AM".
End of quote


You tell me to read about the Buddah (and I have) now I'll tell you to read the seven I AM's of John. Short book, you can read it in a night. Jesus is the I AM of the OT.

Paul was not Jesus nor was he god. He interprets as he sees fit, and he was a man, no more no less. But I didn't ask how Paul defined good works, I asked how you did.
End of quote


No, but he spoke for God. He was inspired as we talked about earlier...remember? God uses man as we use pens? Paul's words in no way contradict any other scripture OT or NT. In fact even Peter put Paul's letters on par with the OT scriptures.

I've already defined good works. What don't you understand? Go back and read what I said. Good works always point to Christ. In everything we do, our works should point to God, not ourselves. My definition would be no diff than any other biblical writer.

God decides, he doesn't need you or me or anyone else to decide what those works should be. He uses us just as we use the pen. It is not the pen that does the deciding, it is the writer. Anything that we or Paul, or James, or anyone else decides is a "good work" is their idea, not the idea of god.
End of quote


God decides, yes. You just said he uses us as we use a pen? Well then couldn't he use Paul or James in the same way? In fact since they are writing the words of God doesn't it make sense that God spoke to them to write down these words?

We will nver know what god decides until we shut up long enough to listen, and god will speak to us if we do. He speaks to us constantly but we are so busy with our own dialog that we never hear.
End of quote


and that's why he gave us his word. That is his revelation to us. We are to meditate on it. He's spoken to me so many many times and proven himself to me and it never violates his written word.

Some day we will stand before him and we will NOT be able to say, "well I didn't know."

















Reply #212 from JoeUser Forums Top
What may I ask do you define as "good works?" And why do you feel that they flow from god?
I didn't ask what St. James said, or thought or knew, nor what catholic theology teaches. I asked how YOU KNOW.Nightshades, Knock, knock, you there? Here are your 2 questions...as far as I can tell, you didn't ask me how I know. I answered by defining "good works" and explaining how I know (not feel) that good works flow from Almighty God...and also added I know what I know through my studies of St.James (who wrote under God's inspiration) and through Catholic teaching on this particular subject.
End of quote


No I didn't ask you, but since you felt free to answer the question I felt free to include you.

No, youi didn't answer the question. The answer you gave me is someone elses answer. That is their knowledge not your own. If I'd wanted to know what St. James felt or thought I'd have asked him. I wanted to know how you as individuals know yourselves. In other words your own experiences, because only your own experiences are your own knowledge. St. James' exeperiences thoughts and feelings and knowledge are his own. You can't own them or posess them. The only knowledge you can own is that which you experience yourself. You did however define good works. Now I ask how do you know that what you defined is a "good work" from god.

As for St. James it is assumption to say that he wrote under god's inspiration. You weren't there and you didn't hear god speaking to him.
Reply #213 from JoeUser Forums Top
No I didn't say that Robert Morris was a jew, I said that Robert Morris and an unnamed jew financed the Continental Congressok, just checking. I found out that Morris was an Epicopalian.
Your belief in the scripture is based strictly on your interpretation, or what someone else has interpretted for you, of it. Not on what is actually written.No not really. I use other scripture to interpret scripture. I also teach the bible and have for years. So what exactly are you referring to specifically?
Buddha was taken up, perhaps not described in those exact words, but the idea is exactly the same. If you really want to know where I cite it from I suggest that you do some reading about the life of the Buddha. It would probably do you good to broaden your mind, not to mention the understanding of other religions.Well I have and if I remember correctly, he lived until about 115 and died and was buried. He was never taken up. So I ask again, where are you getting your info?
Jesus once more did not die for you.well according to the scriptures he did. Are you familiar with John 3:16 or John 1:29?
Your problem is that you want your religion to be unique and different, and the one and only religion that is the truthIt is unique and diff. I don't have to wish it to be. What other great man died on the cross for another? Jesus said himself..."there is no greater love than one willing to give up his life for another."
Jesus Christ is not god.well he said he was. His works and deeds pointed to the fact he was. The OT Prophets spoke of him hundreds of years before proving he was...and his Apostles after his death wrote that he was indeed God in the flesh.
God is the "I AM".You tell me to read about the Buddah (and I have) now I'll tell you to read the seven I AM's of John. Short book, you can read it in a night. Jesus is the I AM of the OT.
Paul was not Jesus nor was he god. He interprets as he sees fit, and he was a man, no more no less. But I didn't ask how Paul defined good works, I asked how you did.No, but he spoke for God. He was inspired as we talked about earlier...remember? God uses man as we use pens? Paul's words in no way contradict any other scripture OT or NT. In fact even Peter put Paul's letters on par with the OT scriptures. I've already defined good works. What don't you understand? Go back and read what I said. Good works always point to Christ. In everything we do, our works should point to God, not ourselves. My definition would be no diff than any other biblical writer.
God decides, he doesn't need you or me or anyone else to decide what those works should be. He uses us just as we use the pen. It is not the pen that does the deciding, it is the writer. Anything that we or Paul, or James, or anyone else decides is a "good work" is their idea, not the idea of god.God decides, yes. You just said he uses us as we use a pen? Well then couldn't he use Paul or James in the same way? In fact since they are writing the words of God doesn't it make sense that God spoke to them to write down these words?
We will nver know what god decides until we shut up long enough to listen, and god will speak to us if we do. He speaks to us constantly but we are so busy with our own dialog that we never hear.and that's why he gave us his word. That is his revelation to us. We are to meditate on it. He's spoken to me so many many times and proven himself to me and it never violates his written word. Some day we will stand before him and we will NOT be able to say, "well I didn't know."
End of quote


"I use other scripture to interpret scripture." And that makes sense how? If you do not understand the one using another to interpret it is like not understanding either. Each passage has it's own meaning and is not dependant on the other for it.

Since I no longer have the book on the life of the Buddha I can not quote you word for word. But the gist of it is that he traveled into what christians consider the after life and saw what does take place. The words are not the same as the words used in the bible, (the bible is far more obtuse) but the experiences are. And that comes from my own personal knowledge and experience.

Don't quote me John or Peter or any other apostle. None of them were Jesus with his understanding. Quote me Jesus. They interpret as they saw fit, which may or may not be truth. They were men, with some understanding of what they were taught, but even Jesus called them "children" because they were children (one with little knowledge). Quote me Jesus because Jesus was the only one with any real knowledge.

Yes he could have used Paul and James. But if God had spoken directly to them they'd have said so would they have not? Simply writing down that which god has already said to another is not god speaking directly to you. And it is assumption on your part that any of them spoke with God.

"The apostles wrote that he was God in the flesh." That was their interpretation, not Jesus's or Gods. Please try to keep in mind that they were men, and that even Jesus called them "children" because they had the understanding and knowledge of children. If they'd had the knowledge of God or even Jesus, they'd have not abandoned him, nor argued between themselves as to "who was the greatest among themselves". And they did.

That is not why his words were given to you, for you to meditate on them. They were given because we don't listen. Jesus listened and received his words directly from the source which requires no "interpretation". You can too. There is no reason why you or anyone else can't. However you said that God speaks to you. How? And I'm not asking because I doubt your word. I would just like you to tell me how he speaks to you.
Reply #214 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sodaiho posts:
I will say this, heaven and hell are not real, tangible places, but rather states of mind, attitudes we can get stuck in. They are what we make of our lives.SilentPoet posts:
(And please give it some thought before you reply, because I understand your upbringing/beliefs.).Good. I'm glad you understand from where my position on Hell comes. There is a Hell which which the justice of God created, to punish rebel angels and unrepentant human beings. Hell is eternal punishment(justice),a place of torment, for those who die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin on their soul.
What if Hell is merely where we are now? What if Earth is hell, and the fire and brimstone? That's what I believe, that we live in hell or a hell like place. I guess it would be sort of similar to what Sodaiho is saying.Earth is not an eternal place, and so since Hell is eternal, it can't be here. In Genesis we're told that ever since Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, we inherit the punishment. The earth is no longer a perfect, peaceful Garden of Paradise anymore. It's groaning towards its end and we, too must work, toil, suffer, feel pain, grow old before our physical end...death. To some, this toil, suffering, war, pain, etc. is Hell on earth. Yes, these things are bad, but there is always hope here for these bad things to get better or end, not so in Hell. The modernists talk of Hell, portraying it on the big screen as Hell's Kitchen, Hell's Angels, Hells' Harbor, etc. They call this Hell on earth, but that's not the Hell Dante referred to when he said, "All hope abandon, ye who enter here." I can't top that.
End of quote


Earth is not an eternal place. No, it's not, but seperation from God is, and that is what hell is. Hell is not a place either. And since we are seperated from God because of our own self importance, hell is right here and now.
Reply #215 from JoeUser Forums Top
"I use other scripture to interpret scripture." And that makes sense how? If you do not understand the one using another to interpret it is like not understanding either. Each passage has it's own meaning and is not dependant on the other for it.
End of quote


There are many rules for interpreting scripture. The reason we have so many denominations out there mainly is because they don't use the "whole" of scripture. I know because I've been involved in many cults that totally ignore anything that would upset their apple cart.

Sometimes you may come across a scripture that may seem a bit fuzzy in your understanding until you come across another scripture (like a puzzle piece) that makes the first one much clearer. Scripture is like a puzzle. Sometimes you have to go to diff parts of the bible to find the piece to put it all together.

For instance (and there is alot of examples I could show you) we read about Cain killing Abel in Genesis..right? There is some disagreement exactly why Cain killed his brother. Was it because Cain didn't give the "first fruit" of his offering as Abel did? Was it because Abel's offering of animals was more pleasing to God than plants and vegetables that Cain offered? Or was it because Cain didn't offer a blood sacrifice to God as Abel did?

Well if you go to 1 John 3:12 written hundreds of years later by John you'd read:

"Not as Cain who was of that wicked one, and SLEW his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil and his brother's righteous."

If you go to the GK the word "slew" is "sphazo" (sound familiar?) and it means "to cut one's throat." Well if you know and understand about the sacrificial system back then, you'd understand that when one sacrificed an animal they cut it's throat.

So after putting this all together, outside of what was written in Genesis by Moses I'd say that Cain, in effect, was saying to God...."you want your sacrifice, here's your sacrifice", as he cut his own brother's throat after going spastic. John provided another puzzle piece.

That's an example of scripture interpreting scripture.

Peter said this in 2 Peter 1:20:

"knowing this first, tht no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

I take that to mean, that no scripture stands alone and that if you want to interpret scripture you go back to the scriptures not to any outside source to interpret it.



Reply #216 from JoeUser Forums Top
But the gist of it is that he traveled into what christians consider the after life and saw what does take place. The words are not the same as the words used in the bible, (the bible is far more obtuse) but the experiences are. And that comes from my own personal knowledge and experience.
End of quote


and see this experience flys directly in the face of what the bible tells us. It's very contrary to scripture. Jesus said there is a great gulf fixed and we can't go from there to here. Scripture also is big into not believing our experiences and feelings because they can lead us in the wrong direction. As Christians, we judge our experiences and feelings to what scripture tells us. That's how we are able to test the spirits.

Don't quote me John or Peter or any other apostle. None of them were Jesus with his understanding. Quote me Jesus. They interpret as they saw fit, which may or may not be truth.
End of quote


So you're telling me that I should trust you or Buddah or even myself before I'd trust Peter or John who spent 3 1/2 years 24/7 with Jesus? Does that make sense?

Jesus gave them his understanding. The whole of Christianity started basically with these 12 men who spent alot of time alone with Christ in the period of over three years.

I can tell you have not studied John and Peter very well at all by your statement. These men put themselves down to exalt Christ and Christ alone. Their whole beings were to honor and glorify the risen Christ. They could care less about their own interpretation. Paul said:

"For do I now persuade men or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should ot be the servant of Christ." Gal 1:10

When Paul was first converted (saw the light) he went away to Arabia for three years to be alone with God. He said in Gal 1:

"But when it pleased God who separated me from my mother's womb and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were Apostles before me, but I went to Arabia and returned again to Damascus."

That is not why his words were given to you, for you to meditate on them. They were given because we don't listen.
End of quote


Then you might want to look up the word meditate and see how it applies to both the OT and the NT. Meditation is very much part of the Christian life. We are to meditate and feed on God's word. His word feeds our soul like food feeds our body. That's why Jesus said, "man shall not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of
God." (I used Jesus here-are you listening?)

When Christ was alone in the desert and weak, that's when Satan grabbed his opportunity to try and tempt him. Three times Satan tried to tempt Christ and all three times Christ used scripture to fight him off.

Psalm 1 says this:

"Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornfuol, but his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law does he meditate day and night."







Reply #217 from JoeUser Forums Top
However you said that God speaks to you. How? And I'm not asking because I doubt your word. I would just like you to tell me how he speaks to you.
End of quote


Many ways. Sometimes it's thru other people. I'll be thinking or praying on an issue, and he gives me the answer thru another. Sometimes by an experience as he leads me into a place or situation that just amazes me. Sometimes I don't realize it until I look back at a given situation. Another way of course, is by reading his word. I don't know how many times I've had an issue or problem and then I'll open up the word to find the solution just in daily reading. His word covers all we will ever encounter.

I've given examples of this here on JU from time to time. I remember one time I had an issue with my son. I was not very trusting in God at the moment worried about him as a college student. I was very anxious and then one day a woman behind a hotel desk where we were staying (we were visiting his college) spoke some words to me telling me a story (out of the blue) and as I went out the door, all I could hear was..."I'm in control" God was telling me not to fret and worry he had it all under control. He used a complete stranger to do this. The tension and anxiety left me just like that.

Another time I head a loud voice in my head for me to give a sweater to someone in my church right after I bought it. I didn't want to. I put it in my closet with the tags on it. A month later I went to wear it and heard the same command "give it to Jonalie." I thought I must be imagining it but I put it back for another time, just in case and the winter went by with my not being able to wear it. It bothered me that much.

In August we decided to move to Florida (another God story) and when I started to pack up my clothes I saw that sweater I had forgotten about. It was way too heavy (see God knew) for Florida so I brought it to church to give it to Jonalie afterall and told her the story of the winter before. She cried...and cried...and cried and wanted to hear the story over and over. She told me (she was crying hysterically) she had thought God had abandoned her and went on to tell me what had been going on secretly in her life. She was praying for an answer and was getting nothing.....until now. Why did I wait so long?

I was stunned. Here I thought God was just telling me that I wouldn't need this heavy sweater after all. He knew in January that I'd be moving the next November (I didn't know) but then I realized he was speaking to her as well. How awesome!

I have a whole list of God speaking to me along the years. It's not unusual and the reason why Christians all over the world know without a doubt that God is with them and cares about them. He has made himself known to me and he's alive.





Reply #218 from Stardock Forums Top

Well I have and if I remember correctly, he lived until about 115 and died and was buried. He was never taken up. So I ask again, where are you getting your info?
End of quote

 

Hello KFC,

 

This the interesting thing about language.  "Taken up"  means what?  Made one with God?  Gone to heaven? Ascended?  The teaching of Buddhist scripture is that indeed Buddha was "taken up" if these are the meanings.  Not only that, but after attaining complete, unexcelled,  enlightenment, he decided rather than go to paranirvana, extinction (nirvana, heaven, whatever), he would remain treading this earth, begging for food, being homeless, and offering himself to teach people the Way. 

 

Because the language is not the same, or the scriptures are not the same, does not mean they don't all point to the same Infinite.  God speaks all languages and speaks to all people in His own way, in His own time, and according to the abilities of those He speaks to.  We should respect and honor them all.

Be well. 

Reply #219 from JoeUser Forums Top
"I use other scripture to interpret scripture." And that makes sense how? If you do not understand the one using another to interpret it is like not understanding either. Each passage has it's own meaning and is not dependant on the other for it.There are many rules for interpreting scripture. The reason we have so many denominations out there mainly is because they don't use the "whole" of scripture. I know because I've been involved in many cults that totally ignore anything that would upset their apple cart. Sometimes you may come across a scripture that may seem a bit fuzzy in your understanding until you come across another scripture (like a puzzle piece) that makes the first one much clearer. Scripture is like a puzzle. Sometimes you have to go to diff parts of the bible to find the piece to put it all together.For instance (and there is alot of examples I could show you) we read about Cain killing Abel in Genesis..right? There is some disagreement exactly why Cain killed his brother. Was it because Cain didn't give the "first fruit" of his offering as Abel did? Was it because Abel's offering of animals was more pleasing to God than plants and vegetables that Cain offered? Or was it because Cain didn't offer a blood sacrifice to God as Abel did? Well if you go to 1 John 3:12 written hundreds of years later by John you'd read:"Not as Cain who was of that wicked one, and SLEW his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil and his brother's righteous." If you go to the GK the word "slew" is "sphazo" (sound familiar?) and it means "to cut one's throat." Well if you know and understand about the sacrificial system back then, you'd understand that when one sacrificed an animal they cut it's throat. So after putting this all together, outside of what was written in Genesis by Moses I'd say that Cain, in effect, was saying to God...."you want your sacrifice, here's your sacrifice", as he cut his own brother's throat after going spastic. John provided another puzzle piece. That's an example of scripture interpreting scripture. Peter said this in 2 Peter 1:20:"knowing this first, tht no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." I take that to mean, that no scripture stands alone and that if you want to interpret scripture you go back to the scriptures not to any outside source to interpret it.
End of quote


There are no rules. The words stand as they are written. They are clear and concise, and there is no puzzle there. If one has a problem understanding them then one needs to ask god. God will make clear to all who question.

God favored Abel's sacrifice over Cain's because Abel's sacrifice was one of spirit (a living breathing thing) and of self denial and Cain's was one of earthly treasure and not of the spirit or self denial. John was correct however when he said that one was righteous and the other evil.

I agree no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, however the writings and interpretations of them by the apostles are. Each writing deals with a specific thing and while all together they form a whole, each is still individual and can stand on their own under their own merit. God is not an "outside source", ask no man, but ask God and God shall make all clear.
Reply #220 from JoeUser Forums Top
But the gist of it is that he traveled into what christians consider the after life and saw what does take place. The words are not the same as the words used in the bible, (the bible is far more obtuse) but the experiences are. And that comes from my own personal knowledge and experience.and see this experience flys directly in the face of what the bible tells us. It's very contrary to scripture. Jesus said there is a great gulf fixed and we can't go from there to here. Scripture also is big into not believing our experiences and feelings because they can lead us in the wrong direction. As Christians, we judge our experiences and feelings to what scripture tells us. That's how we are able to test the spirits.
Don't quote me John or Peter or any other apostle. None of them were Jesus with his understanding. Quote me Jesus. They interpret as they saw fit, which may or may not be truth.So you're telling me that I should trust you or Buddah or even myself before I'd trust Peter or John who spent 3 1/2 years 24/7 with Jesus? Does that make sense?Jesus gave them his understanding. The whole of Christianity started basically with these 12 men who spent alot of time alone with Christ in the period of over three years. I can tell you have not studied John and Peter very well at all by your statement. These men put themselves down to exalt Christ and Christ alone. Their whole beings were to honor and glorify the risen Christ. They could care less about their own interpretation. Paul said:"For do I now persuade men or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should ot be the servant of Christ." Gal 1:10When Paul was first converted (saw the light) he went away to Arabia for three years to be alone with God. He said in Gal 1:"But when it pleased God who separated me from my mother's womb and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were Apostles before me, but I went to Arabia and returned again to Damascus."
That is not why his words were given to you, for you to meditate on them. They were given because we don't listen.Then you might want to look up the word meditate and see how it applies to both the OT and the NT. Meditation is very much part of the Christian life. We are to meditate and feed on God's word. His word feeds our soul like food feeds our body. That's why Jesus said, "man shall not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." (I used Jesus here-are you listening?) When Christ was alone in the desert and weak, that's when Satan grabbed his opportunity to try and tempt him. Three times Satan tried to tempt Christ and all three times Christ used scripture to fight him off. Psalm 1 says this:"Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornfuol, but his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law does he meditate day and night."
End of quote


No, man can not go from here to there, not as he is, full of self importance. "There" even a little self importance is like a great weight and it will crush the life out of those that try. And self importance is the "great gulf" that Jesus spoke of, just as it is the great gulf that keeps us from being with god.

I am not telling you to trust or believe anyone. Not the Buddha or myself. I do not desire or want or expect you to trust or believe in anything that I am telling you. I am telling you to find out for yourself, for that is the only way you will ever "know" anything at all. Anything other than that is not "knowledge", but belief.

What Jesus fought "Satan" with was a lack of self importance, not words. His saying of the words were an affirmation of the fact that he was not self important and that he could not be tempted.

Jesus also said "Ask, and it shall be given you, seek and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks it shall be opened." He wasn't speaking of asking men, but of asking god, for only god can give the true answers.

Reply #221 from JoeUser Forums Top
However you said that God speaks to you. How? And I'm not asking because I doubt your word. I would just like you to tell me how he speaks to you.Many ways. Sometimes it's thru other people. I'll be thinking or praying on an issue, and he gives me the answer thru another. Sometimes by an experience as he leads me into a place or situation that just amazes me. Sometimes I don't realize it until I look back at a given situation. Another way of course, is by reading his word. I don't know how many times I've had an issue or problem and then I'll open up the word to find the solution just in daily reading. His word covers all we will ever encounter. I've given examples of this here on JU from time to time. I remember one time I had an issue with my son. I was not very trusting in God at the moment worried about him as a college student. I was very anxious and then one day a woman behind a hotel desk where we were staying (we were visiting his college) spoke some words to me telling me a story (out of the blue) and as I went out the door, all I could hear was..."I'm in control" God was telling me not to fret and worry he had it all under control. He used a complete stranger to do this. The tension and anxiety left me just like that. Another time I head a loud voice in my head for me to give a sweater to someone in my church right after I bought it. I didn't want to. I put it in my closet with the tags on it. A month later I went to wear it and heard the same command "give it to Jonalie." I thought I must be imagining it but I put it back for another time, just in case and the winter went by with my not being able to wear it. It bothered me that much. In August we decided to move to Florida (another God story) and when I started to pack up my clothes I saw that sweater I had forgotten about. It was way too heavy (see God knew) for Florida so I brought it to church to give it to Jonalie afterall and told her the story of the winter before. She cried...and cried...and cried and wanted to hear the story over and over. She told me (she was crying hysterically) she had thought God had abandoned her and went on to tell me what had been going on secretly in her life. She was praying for an answer and was getting nothing.....until now. Why did I wait so long? I was stunned. Here I thought God was just telling me that I wouldn't need this heavy sweater after all. He knew in January that I'd be moving the next November (I didn't know) but then I realized he was speaking to her as well. How awesome! I have a whole list of God speaking to me along the years. It's not unusual and the reason why Christians all over the world know without a doubt that God is with them and cares about them. He has made himself known to me and he's alive.
End of quote


I am impressed with your story about the voice that spoke to you in your sweater story. It shows me that you can listen when you are not running your internal dialog. Keep it up! You are on the right path. God speaks but we only hear when we are not speaking ourselves.

Reply #222 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why may I ask that you take the word of Paul of Tarsus? He was not one of the apostles and there is no evidence that what he said took place did indeed take place. While Jesus gave his knowledge to the apostles there is no guarantee of their understanding of it. And obviously they did not understand it fully because they still fled upon his arrest and hid. One can tell and show a child how to do a math problem, but that also is no guarantee of understanding on the part of the child either.
Reply #223 from JoeUser Forums Top
This the interesting thing about language. "Taken up" means what?
End of quote


well Nightshades first brought this up saying the Buddha was taken up.

From a Christian perspective "taken up" means for the most part to be snatched away or raptured as Elijah and Enoch were. They are examples of the future "rapture" that Christians speak of.

Why may I ask that you take the word of Paul of Tarsus?
End of quote


Because of his changed life for one thing. It was pretty dramatic. I believe he was apprehended by Christ on that road to Damascus. I believe he saw something that radically changed him forever. From then on he did a 180 turn big time.

He was not one of the apostles and there is no evidence that what he said took place did indeed take place.
End of quote


He was an Apostle and had to defend that title but he called himself the lowest of the Apostles. The others acknowledged his Apostleship as well. And historians have already documented the book of Acts quite thoroughly and finding the events and places to be very accurate. Luke had a knack for detail. Much of Paul's three missionary trips are so well documented in this book.

While Jesus gave his knowledge to the apostles there is no guarantee of their understanding of it. And obviously they did not understand it fully because they still fled upon his arrest and hid.
End of quote


exactly. But remember before Jesus ascended the scripture say "he breathed on them" which means he imparted the Holy Spirit to each of them. 10 Days Later we have Pentecost which is when the Holy Spirit came down on all who would believe. He said all things would come to their rememberance. Later John wrote about this. They got it finally after the fact putting it all together.

It's no diff today. Before the Holy Spirit I didn't understand either. It didn't make sense exactly. I knew a few basic things but not until God sent his HS into my life did I really, really get it. Talk to any on-fire Christian and they will all tell you the same thing.





Reply #224 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lula posts #185
Belief or faith is the first step but that alone doesn't guarantee salvation. Belief (having faith) and love of God comes first, then good works flow from love of God and neighbor.
End of quote


Nightshades posts #188
What may I ask do you define as "good works?" And why do you feel that they flow from god?
End of quote



Nightshades posts #213
No I didn't ask you, but since you felt free to answer the question I felt free to include you.
End of quote


I'm sorry...I thought your were directing your question to me (as well as KFC) since I used those exact words in my post #185.

Nightshades posts #213
No, youi didn't answer the question. The answer you gave me is someone elses answer. That is their knowledge not your own. If I'd wanted to know what St. James felt or thought I'd have asked him. I wanted to know how you as individuals know yourselves. In other words your own experiences, because only your own experiences are your own knowledge. St. James' exeperiences thoughts and feelings and knowledge are his own. You can't own them or posess them. The only knowledge you can own is that which you experience yourself.
End of quote


Of "good works", St. James spoke the truth. The answer I gave concerning "good works" is my own because it's what I personally believe, what I try to practice and what I know through right reason as truth. Truth is in possession.....of "good works", I spoke the truth. There is only one truth...Much like the Ethopian eunuch and St. Philip, instead of relying upon my own understanding or personal interpretation, I discern my knowledge of truth through Scripture and the Catholic Church which has been given to us by Jesus Christ.

You did however define good works. Now I ask how do you know that what you defined is a "good work" from god.
End of quote


Okay, one down, one to go. My answer is close to what you posted in 191.

Nightshades posts #191
The answer to the question "what must I do to be saved" is love god with all your heart and mind", to do that thing is to leave self behind.
End of quote


In #203, I said, From belief comes love...love of God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and love of neighbor as thyself.

It's selfless love of God and neighbor that make our works become supernaturally good.

Reply #225 from JoeUser Forums Top
This the interesting thing about language. "Taken up" means what?well Nightshades first brought this up saying the Buddha was taken up. From a Christian perspective "taken up" means for the most part to be snatched away or raptured as Elijah and Enoch were. They are examples of the future "rapture" that Christians speak of.
Why may I ask that you take the word of Paul of Tarsus?Because of his changed life for one thing. It was pretty dramatic. I believe he was apprehended by Christ on that road to Damascus. I believe he saw something that radically changed him forever. From then on he did a 180 turn big time.
He was not one of the apostles and there is no evidence that what he said took place did indeed take place.He was an Apostle and had to defend that title but he called himself the lowest of the Apostles. The others acknowledged his Apostleship as well. And historians have already documented the book of Acts quite thoroughly and finding the events and places to be very accurate. Luke had a knack for detail. Much of Paul's three missionary trips are so well documented in this book.
While Jesus gave his knowledge to the apostles there is no guarantee of their understanding of it. And obviously they did not understand it fully because they still fled upon his arrest and hid.exactly. But remember before Jesus ascended the scripture say "he breathed on them" which means he imparted the Holy Spirit to each of them. 10 Days Later we have Pentecost which is when the Holy Spirit came down on all who would believe. He said all things would come to their rememberance. Later John wrote about this. They got it finally after the fact putting it all together. It's no diff today. Before the Holy Spirit I didn't understand either. It didn't make sense exactly. I knew a few basic things but not until God sent his HS into my life did I really, really get it. Talk to any on-fire Christian and they will all tell you the same thing.
End of quote


The word taken up means basically to disappear from sight. Ezekial, Jesus and Henoch all disappeared from sight and the descriptions of what happened vary from witness to witness. But basically, they disappeared from sight. And rapture would perhaps be an accurate discription if it weren't for many christians thinking that all of a sudden out of the blue they are all going to disappear together. It will not happen. Each leaves this life, as in taken up leaving, one at a time, not enmass. Unless of course "Scotty" beams them up.

Changing ones life dramatically doesn't mean anything. Many people change their lives dramatically that doesn't make them apostles either. He said he saw something but that's strictly his word, there were no witnesses. Many novel writers are also accurate historically as well, would you call them apostles? I am not questioning the fact that Paul of Tarsus was not a "knowledgeable" man, because many men have been "knowledgeable". Appolonius was also "knowledgeable" and he performed many of the same miracles as the apostles, but he didn't, to my knowledge know who Jesus was, never mind following him, and historically there is no evidence that he did. His life is very well documented as well. As to the apostles acknowledging that he was knowledgeable, also doesn't make him an apostle. And if he had to "fight" for the right to be acknowledged as an apostle, well that would surely make me wonder. But all that aside, I wanted to know why you take his word, simply because someone namely "him" said that he was an apostle? Jesus imparted inner knowledge and clarity to his apostles, not to Paul. However with inner knowledge and clarity comes something else equally as powerful. The ability to forget, to not be able to recall the knowledge. Recollection, not memory mind you, the two are different. Short term loss of memory by so many is not likely to have occurred, one or two perhaps but not eleven. Recollections are different they are most generally a long term process as is very much indicated in the passage that you yourself quoted "He said all things would come to their rememberance." And a bit of sad news, recollection only comes through ones own efforts, it isn't simply "bestowed".