I have no idea.  Neither does anyone else. We have no independent witnesses of the events in this time, only the words contained in the gospels which were written by people who had a vested interest in making the case Jesus was divine.

Be well.

 

 

I also have a question, if you have no opinion why did you start the conversation?

 

Lula, Nice recap. You seem stuck on these talmudic comments. You seem to make light of context.  Please understand your church systematically hunted down, tortured and killed Jews during the centuries prior to and contemporaneous with the comments you are alluding to. ..or have you forgotten the inquisition and other terrors surrounding it? It forced conversions. Christian nations systematically deprived Jews of land ownership, citizenship, and education, expelled them en masse. And what did the historical Jews you refer to do?  Amuse themselves with stories about their torturers. I'd call it gallows humor myself. 

Be well.  

To rise from the dead doesn't require "divinity", simply knowledge and a link with the "all" or "god". But one can not blame those who do not have the knowledge for thinking that it would be an indication of divinity. It's not an event that is witnessed every day. It doesn't necessarily mean that they had a vested interest, it could simply mean that they had a "lack of understanding", could it not?

 

I thought the Times article was interesting and I have had an interest in early Christian beginnings. We must be careful speculating about what happened 2000 years ago. There is very little contemporaneous evidence and a ton of material written about what there is.

 

For my money,  I think Jesus really thought he was the Man. I think he orchestrated the whole thing.  But that's just my guess. I don't think he faked anything.  I just think he really was convinced he was the Messiah. Now, the problem is that all along we thought contemporaneous Jews did not think the promised messiah was divine.  Its the tablet this article talks about that sort of pops that one out.  All along we thought it was Paul spinning the story.  Who knows.  It is an interesting story though.

 

Be well.

I am of the opinion that there is nothing that can not be "known" other than "god", if one desires to know and takes the necessary steps. However, I do think that it was orchestrated and orchestrated by Jesus, who's will was one with the will of god, which would make it gods will. I don't feel that Jesus thought himself divine either. It seems that was a tag placed on him by others.

Nightshades, 

You raise an interesting point regarding will.  From a Zen POV, we are all perfect as we are in the sense that we are one with the universe.  In mystical Judaism, God permeates everything.  There is no place where God is not. In a sense, in both cases, we are partners with the Infinite as life unfolds. So, from a Big Mind context, all of the universe in every manifestation is a manifestation of God.  Its the Small Mind, the relative point of view, the view from the ego or the self, that adds intent to the picture, adds valuation to the picture.  We assign meaning, we assign this as "good", that as "evil". And so on.  Yet in the Big Picture, all is God. Good and evil are human attributes and completely within our own control.

For some reason, we humans require drama in our lives.  Hence "The Passover Plot"  or "The War Against Christianity" or  Jewish stories about Christians, and then there is the drama queen of the airways, Fox News.  

My sense is that we can talk to understand ourselves better, both as human beings and as God's partners, or we can talk to infuriate one another, adding that dramatic element to our lives. I'm surethere are many things in between. 

Be well.

Hi SoDaiho,

Modernists assume the the reality and the message afterwards of Christ's Resurrection was misunderstood by His own Disciples, by their disciples, by the Chruch Fathers, and by nearly all Christendom for so many centuries until contemporary scholars like these in this article from the Jewish University finally dope it out.


Christ is the dividing line...even if one hates Him or just doesn't believe He was the Messias, or that He is Almighty God the Father, they can't let Him go.

Christ's rising from the tomb leaving it empty with only traces of His presence there, His appearance beginning that very morning were too attested for rational denial. Nevertheless, something like this article comes along and as Pope St.Felix III wrote, "an error which is not resisted is approved; a truth which is not defended is suppressed".

There were countless testimonies from those outside Christianity of Christ's Resurrection. How about a testimony from the pen of a first century Jew, Flavius Josephus, born 37AD.
He was a Priest, a general and considered an excellent historian, a great light in his age. In his, Antiquities of the Jews, he treats the Resurrection as a fact, calls Jesus "the Messiah", and refers to Him as a "wise man, if indeed He should be called a man." Flavius Josephus, hardly a vested interest, is a good study. I think he is even cited with respect by modern Talmudic scholars.

In researching the time following the Resurrection, it's apparent that one didn't have to be a Christian per se to believe in the Resurrection. It seemed like common knowledge amongst all the people and was widely accepted even by pagans.

And then there is Pontius Pilate, hardly a vested interest, who followed standard procedure by sending a report on Jesus' trial to Emperor Tiberius. Pilate states that there was talk of Jesus' Resurrection though he personally could not confirm it for certain. In a 2nd letter years later to Emperor Claudius, he asserts the Resurrection was witnessed by Roman soldiers who along with Jewish soldiers accepted hush money from Jewish leadership. He also observes it was envy of part of the chief priests that caused them to have Jesus crucified. According to Eusebuis, Tiberius read Pilate's report to the Senate where decisions on deification were normally made.

There are 2 recent books who argue the case for Christ's Ressurection...Pinchas Lapide, and Rabbi David Dalin.


Jesus rose from the dead. Alleluia! Viva Christo Rey!

There's something you two are not taking into effect. Jesus many miracles that turned Cana,Galilee, Judea and Jerusalem upside down. The fact that his disciples all fled in fear when he was captured but yet later all died a martyr's death save one.

What made them change their mind? what about Paul's dramatic conversion and the many Jews after Paul who were mocked and bullied for leaving their faith to follow this Messiah? What motivated them to do so?

The disciples spent 3 1/2 years with him. They knew him well enough. Enough to die for him many years later. Like I've said before man will live for a lie but will he die for one? They were eyewitnesses to everything he did. They recorded it all by writing it all down for us and not one contradicts the other in their writings.

How can Jesus orchestrated his own birth and death? Maybe some of his adult activities but com'on his birth and the exact way he died right down to being pierced in the side? His genealogy was never questioned by the Rabbi's. He fit the criteria by coming from the line of King David. He was born in Bethlehem as Micah predicted. He was crucified exactly as many of the OT prophets predicted and he was buried in a rich man's tomb as predicted. Did he plan all this? There's no way he could do all of this with not messing up just one time. It went according to plan. God's plan and it has lasted all these years because it's true. It has stood the test of time for sure.

I see good and evil as mind constructs much like enlightenment. I prefer the terms positive and negative, in the sense that positive is the creative force and negative the the breaking down or destructive force. Both are necessary, one no more preferable or desirable than the other. I feel the same way about the terms "perfect" and "perfection". I am of the opinion that we are in "spirit" exactly as we should be, but that that knowledge is blocked by the illusion of physicality, and prevented from being brought forward and given the power to act by self-importance, the ego or the "I" as I have read you describe it. It's that sense of self importance (the I) that causes us to act contrary to our real nature which is the nature of spirit.

I have quite often heard it described as the small mind, and I also take exception with that term. There is only one mind, no larger or no smaller one. I am of the opinion that god is knowledge itself, all that has ever been, or ever will be, (the alpha and the omega) and there is no "god mind". That the mind was a gift to human kind, a gift to aid us as witnesses to the cosmos. God created man and woman in his own image, so that god could witness and experience god's own creation. The mind itself instead of being a tool as it was meant to be, became a petty tyrant instead and took control with it's creation called the "ego" or self-importance or the "I".

There is drama in the world, but that is designed by the mind as a distraction to keep us from discovering it's true purpose. The mind guards it's power jealously and will do anything to keep us from discovering it's true nature, even to go as far as convincing us that it is us. It's been rather successful at it, we feel and act as though our ego's are us and one can not be seperated from the other. It has even convinced us that there is even a higher form of itself, and has assigned itself the power and glory of a "higher mind" or "god mind".

No. The tomb was heavily guarded by Roman guards. It was sealed with a two ton rock. The Jews were subjects of Rome. There would have been no way to get around Rome to get his body away from them.

Besides think about this. If they were indeed successful in taking his dead body out of that tomb which was sealed with a two ton rock, no less, where would they go with it? Do you think they were going to run thru the town with a dead body escaping notice of the Romans?

Besides, later they all were willing to go to the death for Jesus. Why would they do this if they knew his body was buried by them in some unmarked tomb they had placed him in?

Makes no sense.

What the truth really shows us is they all fled when he was captured by the Romans not wanting to be implicated. They hid away making plans on their next move when Christ showed himself to them. The risen Christ showed himself to 500 people. They were the witnessess that fueled the beginnings of the church. Three thousand were added to the church in one day after that. Five thousand on another. How did this happen? By listening to Peter who was an eyewitness after first denying his Lord. He was credible.

Their changed lives are the biggest testimony to the resurrection. What made them change? What turned their fear and cowardice into confidence and courage? They stared death in the face and walked thru the fire. What happened?

They came face to face with the risen Christ, not unlike the rest of us who are still willing even today to go to the death for Christ if asked to. We've all come face to face with the risen Christ as he has made himself known to us.

As far as the war being waged on Christians, it's a fact and it's happening world wide. It will continue and I believe only the "real" Christians will stand firm as did the Apostles and disciples of old even to the point of death if need be. Persecution has a way of separating the chaff from the wheat. It's all part of God's plan.

I just received this from IsraelNationalNews.com


Anti-Christian "Cleansing" Continues in GAZA

Christian targets and those identified with western culture have been attacked with more frequency in Gaza over the last two years. Since June 2000, when Hamas gained contrl in Gaza, the targets have ncluded churches, schools, libaries and internet cafes.

Recently a gunman attacked guards at a school operated by the Baptist Holy Book Society. Terrorists also threatneded the society's director. Hamas leadership has done nothing to stop the attacks and no one has been brought to justice.

According to Israeli intelligence, there has been an increase in the number of attacks on Christian individuals and institutions as well as those associated with western values. These attacks accordng to reports are being perpetrated by elements identified with global jihad and radical Islam.

These groups have a clearly stated goal of driving Christians and Christian organizations completely out of Gaza.

In Oct 2007 a Palestinian Bible Society bookstore manager of the only all-Christian bookstore in Gaza was kidnapped and murdered. These and othe horrific attacks have created an atmosophere of concern and fear among the vastly out-numbered Bible-believing Palestinian Christians in Gaza.

Scripture is quite clear that all through our Lord's ministry, Passion, Death and Resurrection, Christ reveals what will happen, but even though, the Apostles and disciples weren't able to fully understand what it all meant.

Except St.John, during and after Christ's death, burial and Resurrection, the Apostles fled and were in hiding for "fear of the Jews". It's the women, after the obligatory Sabbath rest, who go to the tomb and first see that it's empty...they go and find the hiding Apostles. When they see the empty tomb, they better understood the depth of the things Christ told them before He died.

For example after Christ had cleansed the Temple from making it a house of trade, the Jews asked Him what signs could He show them..Christ answered, "Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Christ was speaking of His Body as the Temple that would be destroyed by crucifixion and raised up in 3 days.

It wasn't until after Our Lord ascended into Heaven and the Holy Spirit came down upon them at the first Pentecost that the Apostles would have full understanding.

KFC,  You make an excellent case.  Christians in other countries are being targeted. And Christian investment in making everything Christian is also being defended against by non-Christians. The problem as I see it is in the need Christians seem to have in bringing Christ to everyone regardless of their faith. When you mess with a person's family or his deeply held religious convictions you invite attack.  Now, you can call that counter attack a "war" if you want to, but I guarentee in the main it will stop as soon as Christians learn to respect the boundaries of others.

Be well.

 

I might add, that Islam needs to learn this same lesson.

Be well.

Very good job nightshades of describing Naturalism, Materialism, otherwise known as the Cult of Self. "Selfism" is in reality a secular substitute religion.

We live in an imperfect world and are certainly confronted with a wide spectrum of ideas in this pluralistic society and it's difficult to find common standards by which truth may be safeguarded.

As we search for answers of the meaning of life, we must keep the objective standards of good and evil at the forefront.

I personally enjoy life admist the turmoil in this valley of tears fallen world with hope and looking forward to eternal salvation in the next.

I sincerely doubt that the apostles had as much understanding or highly doubtful "full understanding" as you give them credit for, either before or after the "pentecost". None of them recognized him, not even when he presented himself to them, they still needed proof. The church today still has very little understanding, as do most christians. Jesus is no ones "personal saviour" except his own, just as we are all our own personal saviours. When he said "believe in me" he didn't mean that simply the belief that he was "god" which is a heresy by the way, (Commandment number one "Thou shalt not have no other god before me.") but to believe in the fact that all he did was possible to do by all, from the highest of us to the lowest, are all equal, and all have the same potential and capability to become that which he became. That he was simply a man who put self aside in order to allow spirit (god) to work through him. All the ten commandments have to do with this. Thou shalt have no god before me, is a prime example. Most of us follow a "god" the god of self, self interests, self importance, and that is the god of which the commandment speaks that shall not come first before god. All the other nine are also commandments against self importance as well.


The well touted christian statement that "I would die for Jesus", is a deception, most christians can't even live for Jesus, which is even more demanding and more necessary than dying for him. Any fool can die, few of us ever really live.

This is not true. Where are you getting your info from?



This is the only thing you said above that is absolutely true. The rest is not true at all.



Most of us don't know until put in that situation what we would do, but there are millions of Christians who have proven you wrong here. Many thru the centuries, including even today have put themselves at risk for following Jesus. The question begs to be answered tho "who are the true Christians?"

SODAIHO POSTS:

Sodaiho,

It's impossible to impose Catholicism on anyone. Faith in Christ is offered and how can it be chosen if it's not offered? If someone has found the means to eternal salvation, why shouldn't he attempt to instruct his neighbor on how to achieve the same?

Why be stingy with your love...that's the greatest demonstration of the deepest bonds of friendship and love. To love someone in the deepest sense of this term is to wish to be with him in Heaven adoring God in spirit and truth.

Conversely, the perfect form of hatred is to say, Be damned.

When someone approaches you with a message of Christ, give them credit that their intentionis a loving one for they are trying to be "their brother's keeper." True love for one another is partaking in Christ's love for all people. Christ's love commands us to have a burning concern about the eternal fate of all our brothers and sisters no matter what the race, their religion or lack of religion.

Nightshades posts:

AMEN.

Viva Christo Rey!

Okay,it's back to basics I see. St. Luke chapter 24, The resurrection of Jesus, Emmaus

"And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which is sixty stadia from Jerusalem. And they were talking to each other about all these things that had happened. And it came to pass while they were conversing and arguing together, that Jesus himself also drew near and went along with them; but their eyes were held, that they should not recognize him. And he said to them, What words are these that you are exchanging as you walk and are sad? But one of them namedd Cleophas, answered and said to him, "Art thou the only stranger in Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these dys?" And he said to them "What things?"

And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people; and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be sentenced to death, and crucified him. But we were hoping that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, today is the third day since these things came to pass. And moreover, certain women of our company, who were at the tomb before it was light, astounded us, and not finding his body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he is alive. So some of our company went to the tomb, and found it even as the women had said, but him they did not see."

But he said to them, "O foolish ones and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Chist have to suffer these things before entering into his glory?" And beginning then with Moses and with all the Prophets, he interpretd to them in all the Scriptures the things referring to himself.

And they drew near to the village to which they were going, and he acted as though he were going on. And they urged him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is getting towards evening, and the day is now far spent." And he went in with them. And it came to pass when he reclined at table with them, that he took the bread and blessed and broke and began handing it to them. And their eyes were opened, and the recognized him; and he vanished from their sight. And they said to each other, "Was not our heart burning within us while he was speaking on the road and explaining to us the Scriptures?"

And rising up that very hour, they returned to Jerusalem, where they found the Eleven gathered together and those who were with them, saying, "The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon." And they themselves began to relate what had happened on the journey, and how they recognized him in the breaking of the bread.

Now while they were talking of these things,Jesus stood in their midst, and said to them, "Peace to you! It is I, do not be afraid." But they were startled and panic-stricken, and thought that they saw a spirit.

And he said to them, "Why are you disturbed, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Feel me and see; for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

Yeah they recognized him alright as a spirit or ghost, and it had to be proven to them that he was indeed not a spirit or ghost by touching him and viewing his wounds, even after they had been told that he had been seen and recognized, as a human body and not spirit by other apostles, and yes there were more than 12, there were in fact 72. Even though prior to his death Jesus had told them what would happen, they still did not understand his words and meaning, as is evidenced by St. Luke chapter 24 "But Peter arose and ran to the tomb; and stooping down, he saw the linen cloths laid there; and he went away wondering to himself at what had come to pass." The key word is wondering, not marveling, not dazzled, or any of those other adjectives that describe astonishment.

Further more St. Luke chapter 24.4 The Ascension of Jesus

"Now he led them out towards Bethany, and he lifted up his hands and blessed them. And it came to pass as he blessed them, that he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. And they WORSHIPPED HIM, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen"

Please note that the words they worshipped him, and were praising and blessing God not worshipping God. Commandment number 1. Thou shalt have no other god before me. Even after Jesus had opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures they did not understand them. Most notably the first commandment.

As for the church and christians of today, let me remind you of this fact, Jesus stressed that in order to follow him one must give up everything. Friends, family, wealth, personal aggrandizement, etc. The church has done none of this, on the contrary they have gone out of their way to accumulate a great deal of worldly wealth, (and by the way neither have the born again christians given up the same) and they have taken personal aggrandizement to new heights. They not only worship the man Jesus, they worship and pray to a myriad of others, the virgin Mary, the numerous saints, and themselves as well. Modern day christians a good many of them believe that god wants them to be wealthy, as do their churches, and yet Jesus clearly stated that it is harder for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. They definately misunderstood the difference between god wishing them to prosper and the accumulation of worldly goods. They are not one and the same thing.

Jesus also said that which you do to the least of you, you do also unto me. To torture and force non believers to convert is doing unto the least of man, and therefore is to do unto Jesus. The church has a long history of doing just that, from the inquisition to the subjugation of native peoples, all the way down to the torture and deaths of their own believers. It rather reminds me of the US bringing democracy to the rest of the world at the end of a gun. "We will bring democracy to you even if we have to shoot every one of you to do so." So it is and has been with the church and christians. They are willing to do pretty much anything to save their own skins and status including signing a peace treaty with of all people Adolf Hitler. They place themselves above others (self aggrandizement) by declaring that only those who accept the personal saviour called Jesus would be saved. There is going to be rapture, where all the true believers will be taken up into heaven at one time while the rest of mankind suffers. Bull! There is no such thing, it is indeed an invention by a man named Miller, whose followers founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Few christians live the word of god, and even fewer follow the path of Jesus.

For Lula: In truth, My belief has always been there are many paths to G-ds door, no religion has exclusive rights to his heart or to his house, My remark about only Jews can get to heaven and everyone else is doomed to hell was a jab at people that take themselves to darn serious. Especially the ones that condemn everyone else to hell......  if they don't somehow believe as THEY DO!.

ok, look at what you wrote. First of all you said this:



You said NONE of them RECOGNIZED him.

The only place where they didn't recognized HIM was, as you wrote about, on the road to Emmaus. Now that was TWO people. One was named Cleophas and we don't know the other. Neither was mentioned in scripture before this.

Cleopas was one of two men who were trudging to Emmaeus when Christ joined them just newly risen. They did not recognize him until he broke bread with them that evening. These were not His close Apostles.

When the Apostles saw him, you even wrote they were stricken. Why? Because they did recongize him and knowing he was dead, it must be his ghost. So you just proved yourself wrong with the scriptures going against your earlier statement.



Yes, they had to know that he was physically risen, not spirit risen. And this is very important. There are many today that say he was only a spirit when he rose. That's why this is in there. Christ was the first fruit which goes way back to Lev 23 and the Feast of First Fruits. The whole deal is that there would be more to follow.

No there were not 72 here. Where are you getting that from? It says and I'm using your quote here:





You're forgetting something. They did recognize and believe him at his word that he was God. Now go back and read when Jesus met with Thomas. Thomas knelt and acknowledged Christ as "My Lord and My God." They were not committing a sin. They were acknowledging Christ as God. Read the first few verses in John 1. "In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God and the Word was God.The word became Flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory."

While they didn't quite understand things, it was as Lula said, afterwards it all made sense. It all came together. That's why they were willing to give their lives for him later on They knew the truth.

you're all mixed up and anti-denomination. Fine. I'm not very gung ho about denomination myself so you're preaching to the choir.

But you're skewed in your thinking. You're getting pseudo-Christianity mixed up with real Christianity. You're getting religion and relationship mixed up. A real Christian knows they can't force or tortue a person into believing. It's God's work not ours. We are only to scatter seed (the gospel which means good news) and leave God to do the watering and growing. Only God can open eyes. Not me nor anyone.

First of all I was a former Adventist. They DO NOT BELIEVE in the Rapture. It did not come from them. Miller and the Millerites sold all their possessions, went up on a mountain to wait and waited and waited. They did not get this from scripture. So don't blame the truth for all these people who came up with their own wrong truth and built a denomination around it.

The Rapture theory first came about by a man named Darby in the 1700's I believe. Some groups believe in the rapture some don't. I belive it to be true because it's quite clear in 1 Thess 4:16 there will be one. Some believe in the principle of it but just not the word "rapture"

The bible says that when he comes those who are alive will be "caught up" and that's where we get our modern word rapture. It comes from the Latin "rapere"

and this happens daily for us who follow Christ. It means sacrifice. That's what Jesus said would happen and is what he requires. When we join Christ whether we are a Jew, Islamic, formally Atheistic or even Catholic......it means sacrifice.

Many have lost jobs, family relations, or been cut out of wills because they followed Christ.

It has nothing to do with not having wealth. Not having wealth doesn't make one more Christian. You can be wealthy but not have money be your god. One can be poor and curse God. It's not about having or not having possessions. It's not money that is evil but the love of money that is evil. Many of God's most precious saints were rich. Abraham, David, Solomon and Job are a few examples. God can and may bless some of his people with money and riches. It's about knowing and acknowledging who is behind your wealth and understanding all is the Lord's to begin with.

For the world it's ok to be religious but it's not ok to follow Christ and there is a difference. My husband's family is Catholic. When he left the Catholic faith to follow Jesus (sorry Lula) he was persecuted by his own family because he left his heritage. They were religious and went to Mass every week but they were lost. There was no diff between them and the secular world. We were not invited to their parties anymore and were consideed the black sheep when in all reality we most likely were making them feel guilty for their behaviors.

I heard a commercial advertisement last night on tv that said a good reason to be Catholic is that you can go to Mass, have your sins expunged and sin all week and have fun and not have any worries. That has been my experience with most of the Catholics I've met including my family and my husband's.....but not Lula.

Wrong!