Gideon MacLeish Gideon MacLeish

The Myth of the College Degree

The Myth of the College Degree

About 7 years ago, I sat in a marketing "class". Oh, don't get me wrong, it contained a lot of good information. A lot of VERY good information, in fact, that I use to this day. But the marketing class was just a sales pitch for the latest Internet marketing company that had set up shop.

At the end of the day, we all received a very nice quality certificate, printed out on quality parchment paper. It was well presented, but all it was, effectively, was a sales pitch.

It was at the moment that I received my certificate that it hit me: degrees, certificates, pieces of paper are all essentially marketing gimmicks.

This is how those correspondence courses, those learn online places, make their money. Often they will offer you the information they are seeking, they just accredit their education to their own standards rather than a national standard, and issue you a "degree" based on their own educational standards. Without any kind of reputation behind it, all it is is another marketing gimmick.

I've spent the last year and a half earning the degree I never received. Now I can actually take credit for earning a college degree, and am working on another. And while there are moments where I think it might have been nice to have earned this degree when I was younger, there's a part of me that is glad I waited this long. Because not only do I value it, but I realize its value.

The degree I am earning is, by itself, worth nothing. Well, maybe the fraction of a cent recycle value that it represents. But the degree itself is utterly worthless unless the education is actually used. It is like a key dangling on a chain. If you find a key while youre walking along the street, do you keep it? Unless you're a packrat, you usually don't. It's just a worthless key, after all, and not worth spending the time stooping to pick up.

Now, then, change the scenario. Assume you find a key, and you know it unlocks a great treasure (for the sake of this analogy, we will assume it's legal to procure the treasure, provided you have the key). What do you do then? You keep it, you guard it, until such time as you can use it to obtain the treasure.

Did the key's value increase? Not one bit. It is still worth exactly what the first key was worth. But the value it REPRESENTS is what increased.

Recently it was suggested that the government should pay for all postsecondary education, up to and including advanced degrees. I disagree with that premise, and this is why. Because it makes no sense to hand out keys indiscriminately to everyone hoping that one or two will unlock the treasure.

In America, we are incredibly fortunate. We have all the tools for learning at our disposal. You cannot go to a city of any size and not find a public library. These libraries have a wealth of information available to anyone who wants to use it. And, in fact, if you're reading this, you are sitting in front of a machine that gives you access to more information than the most well stocked library.

This is what makes the suggestion of "free" postsecondary education useless. Essentially the proposal is that we hand out keys to everyone so that they can unlock their potential. But if they won't walk through open doors to unguarded treasure, why on earth would they use a key to access more closely guarded treasure?

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Reply #26 Top
this is just a community college which receives taxes to keep tuition low
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Reply #27 Top
But what it all signifies is what has been said many times before. Work for it, and the value increases immensely. Get it for free, and the value is thereby decreased. Work is not meant as a punishment (that goes for learning or earning), but as a way of putting value into our activities not only so others can value them (which does help to put food on the table), but so that we can value them even more.
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then all of these companies that pay for college classes and other forms of further eduction courses are just throwing away their money.
Reply #28 Top
if you live in the right counties nor does it covor class prices if any
End of quote


TUITION is "class prices" danielost.

Try again!
Reply #29 Top
if you live in the right counties nor does it covor
End of quote
class prices if any



i covered that gid read the whole thing.


there are classes that require that you pay for lab expensive or buy specific things for that class such as a computer.


nor does the tuition cover the costs of books. yes i know you can buy used.
Reply #30 Top

the federal government spends tons of money to help students go to school. STATE governments spend tons of money as well. Add in civic groups, nonprofits, etc, and it's probably fair to say that somewhere in the billions of dollars lf "free" aid is offered every year. It's nobody's fault but your own if you don't use it.

In the last year and a half ALL I paid for tuition out of MY pocket was $350 for one summer class that wasn't covered by financial aid because it was used for the year.

Gideon,

I'm not going to argue that all post-secondary should be free. Growing up I saw many kids go to take 4 years of general studies at university because mommy and daddy had money, and if little johnny or suzie didn't go to school they'd have to get a job! (oh the horror)

For many of these kids, it was a complete waste. A waste of their time, a waste of their parents money, and a waste of instructor resources that could have been better allocated. Most of these kids did not graduate and washed out after 1-2 years. Come the following year, they'd either be working full time at an entry level-whatever job or enrolled in a technical school to get a trade (at least the smarter ones anyway)

My problem is however that the vast majority of students who go to post-secondary (and do so out of genuine motivation and intent to better themselves and get a career) end up graduating with tens of thousands of dollars of debt! A twenty something newly minted degree or diploma in whatever starts off in a very bad situation- they realistically cannot buy a house, start a business or do very much with their lives because they start off in the game of monopoly at square 1 with 30,000 plus in debt. Now, yes, if these people are a lawyer or a doctor or optometrist, even 100 thousand in debt isn't too big of a deal. But the vast majority are not. Yessir, that American dream is getting more attainable all the time!

Reply #31 Top
I disagree, stubby. There will always be a place for menial employment. Your vision is interesting, but I don't see it as being practical.


No not always but it will take perhaps couple of centuries for that to happen. Still demand for menial jobs will decline at a rate we won’t be able to adapt too. Shifting economies will move at a fraction of the pace of this revolution.

There are a million reasons to not go to college, but money isn't one of them


I agree that anyone who wants an education in this country can have one. It’s certainly easier if you have money and no dependents but it still possible.

Recent discoveries have suggested that unless quantum computing hits a hurtle it can’t jump there will be no job that that can’t be done better by a machine. If you’re religious and believe that we are more than biological machines then it’s hard to agree with that. But if things are as they appear and our brains are simply biological computers then it’s easy to see a time that computers will be so much smarter than us that we won’t even be able to comprehend how they’re built.
Reply #32 Top
Artysim: Ask them how much of their student loans were necessary to cover their schooling and expenses? How many could have done just fine on pell grants and work-study or jobs, but chose the "easy" route with student loans.

Now, I'm not saying that all the people who use student loans use the money unwizely, or that all could have gotten jobs instead. However, for those who took out student loans so they wouldn't have to work, I just don't see the problem.

People forget that college is an investment, just like any other investement. Some investments pay off well, others brake even, and still others fail miserably. Taking out loans is an option, and I have no problem with the option being there... but it is a lot like taking out a bank loan to play the stock market, and that isn't even legal.
Reply #33 Top
My problem is however that the vast majority of students who go to post-secondary (and do so out of genuine motivation and intent to better themselves and get a career) end up graduating with tens of thousands of dollars of debt!
End of quote


Do you know the reason for that, arty? Not because the money isn't there, but because most students would rather max out student loans and live off of them than get a real job.

I believe financial aid personnel at the colleges have a lot to do with it. They push the loans, and 19 year old students don't count the long term costs.

The American dream IS attainable, arty. The only reason I incurred ANY student loan debt over the last year and a half is to make it easier to cover relocation to work on my bachelor's. Oh, and to purchase a laptop, because it is important in my line of work. But neither was essential, and I could have gotten by without a loan had I chosen to. I just counted the cost and decided a low interest student loan was worth it.

Reply #34 Top
I think ALL federal financial aid for higher education should have the following stipulations: 1. Four years college at government expense means four years public service, military or otherwise. Don't like it? Pay your own way. 2. You must pursue a degree in a field where there is demand. I would have no problem right now paying for more nurses, but we don't need more lawyers bad enough to foot the bill for it. 3. Anything past a Bachelor's, you're on your own. Find a scholarship or work it off somehow.


I like the basic idea, but I would modify it. Some people are unsuited for public service, yet can be productive otherwise. What about having people pay back the money to the government later instead of working for the government? The problem will be the kids who study something that simply doesn't bring in money because society doesn't need another English literature major and similar reasons. And I am sure government doesn't need those people working in the military or other public service either. I assume that a CS major can pay back his government loan much quicker than a BA in Literature. I would also propose subsidizing nurses and doctors (because society needs them and that need exists outside market forces). All of this would be according to exam results, of course. You pass the year, the loan continues. You fail more than one year, you start paying back.
Reply #35 Top
Do you know the reason for that, arty? Not because the money isn't there, but because most students would rather max out student loans and live off of them than get a real job.

I believe financial aid personnel at the colleges have a lot to do with it. They push the loans, and 19 year old students don't count the long term costs.
End of quote




i could be wrong but i think graduate doctors put in 12 hours a day or more in class and working in a hospital without pay. that leaves 12 hours a day for study, sleep, fun[if any]. but their just being lazy because their also not working.
Reply #36 Top
I would also propose subsidizing nurses and doctors (because society needs them and that need exists outside market forces).
End of quote


Possibly. But there would be plenty of public service opportunities for them to "pay back" their college. I would have no problem waiving the "four year" rule for doctors or nurses.

There are also plenty of public service opportunites we don't think of. It wouldn't be too difficult to bring up good opportunities for students who need to get degrees.

I am telling you, though, from firsthand experience, that if you want to finish schooling in America, you can find a way.
Reply #37 Top
i could be wrong but i think graduate doctors put in 12 hours a day or more in class and working in a hospital without pay
End of quote


Yeah. A freshman college student equates to a resident intern.

You forget, danielost, I've SEEN firsthand how a lot of these students squander their loan money.
Reply #38 Top

Do you know the reason for that, arty? Not because the money isn't there, but because most students would rather max out student loans and live off of them than get a real job.

I believe financial aid personnel at the colleges have a lot to do with it. They push the loans, and 19 year old students don't count the long term costs

This is a good topic. Here's the thing- it's not that there aren't ways to get access to money, it's that most people don't know the ins and outs of how to game the system properly. And that's exactly it- doing it right is gaming the system, using it in a way that is contrary to its' design. This system is designed to squeeze as much money as possible out of you, or to squeeze it out of the government on your behalf. The actual educational content becomes secondary. Much the same as in privatized healthcare, the number one priority is making sure the company makes money as opposed to saves lives. Remember, in the free market profit is the one true God. I fully agree with you about the marketing pitch ploys run by many of the schools- especially those wonderful commercials which hawk "your choice of medical record transcriptionist, criminal forensics, or professional baker!!"

The average student sees that school ABC will cost 10 thousand dollars per year. Now, unless you're able to pay all of your living expenses and pocket that 10 grand per year in savings - which most people will not be able to make that kind of money because that is the reason they are going to school in the first place- you have to go on financial assistance, student loans, or be extremely smart and get a good scholarship. The vast majority of students will end up getting loans- not because they are lazy, but because this is what they are told to do, and is one of the most attainable options.

I worked two jobs through college, but the income from those was just barely enough to cover basic living costs- rent, food utilities etc. I did end up getting a very small student loan to pay for one semester, but the rest was covered by my savings, and mostly because of the goodwill of my family. They knew that I was going to school for a career so they helped out financially. Had they not been there for me, or had their own financial situation been less well off I would have graduated with a ton of debt. This is not they way you want to run a country, to have the majority of your new graduates starting off as indentured debt-servants!

If the number of post-secondary graduates that were coming out with crushing debt was in the minority, I could agree with the argument that some of them are just gol'darned lazy! However, they are the majority. To say that this is because all of them are lazy or stupid is a non-starter in my opinion. It's an indication that there's something very wrong with the system.

 

 

Reply #39 Top
To say that this is because all of them are lazy or stupid is a non-starter in my opinion. It's an indication that there's something very wrong with the system.
End of quote


I really think there are other issues at play.

Remember, I support a household of eight, work a full time and a part time job, AND have been going to school full time. My total debt from THIS go around, the last year and a half, is $2550. Not exactly "crushing" debt. I do intend to take out a loan next semester, but am hoping to limit my borrowing beyond that until law school, when I probably WILL live off loans for awhile to make it through.

I agree there are things that need changing about the system, but I disagree that someone who is dedicated cannot make a go of things. I disagree because I have lived it.

I also know for a fact students who have deliberately piled up over $100,000 in debt simply because it was available to them. I would need some hard stats to show that the average 4 year state university grad is carrying $100k in debt out the door with them.
Reply #40 Top
i could be wrong but i think graduate doctors put in 12 hours a day or more in class and working in a hospital without pay. that leaves 12 hours a day for study, sleep, fun[if any]. but their just being lazy because their also not working.
End of quote


Just ask BlueDev. There's no way in hell that he could've gotten a job when he's working 100+ hours a week to not actually get paid for jack shit, all in the name of "schooling".

People may squander their loans, but from my experience (funny how experiences are different, eh Gid?) they are necessary. Not a luxury.

A necessity.
Reply #41 Top
We are leaving out the military, the peace corps, Americorp, Job Corps; heck even giving plasma will get you $50/week nowadays... and you can study while you're getting milked.
Reply #42 Top
Yeah. A freshman college student equates to a resident intern.

You forget, danielost, I've SEEN firsthand how a lot of these students squander their loan money.
End of quote


sorry gid not everyone is as wise as you are/were.
Reply #43 Top
I agree there are things that need changing about the system, but I disagree that someone who is dedicated cannot make a go of things. I disagree because I have lived it.
End of quote


who said anything about someone who is dedicated.


i am talking about people who have been told all their lives that they are worthless. just as you just did. when you stated that you have seen people squander their money. in your eyes it was squandering in the eyes of the ones spending it may have been needed.


what i have proposed would lift some of the people who are laying in the mud. what you are talking about are people who may be wading through the mud such as yourself.
Reply #44 Top
heck even giving plasma will get you $50/week nowadays..
End of quote


DAMN! Inflation. I only got $10/wk when I was in college! ;)
Reply #45 Top
Had plasma been discovered yet back when you and Thomas Jefferson were in college? :~D
Reply #46 Top
A necessity.
End of quote


Hmm, I could be wrong, but I think BlueDev's working on a GRADUATE degree, which falls in a different category. Not every student needs a graduate degree.

I can assure you, student loans are not a necessity for MOST people at the undergrad level and are certainly a luxury.
Reply #47 Top
another suggestion, go to a certification program that only takes a semester and only costs a few hundred to a thousand dollars, that way, when you do work, you can make more than minimum wage or "work study" wages.
Reply #48 Top
what i have proposed would lift some of the people who are laying in the mud.
End of quote


You can't force anyone out of the mud, danielost. People who don't WANT to change can just go on laying there. Sound callous? Yup, but frankly, my job is not to hold your hand!

Not everyone is capable of earning a college degree, not everyone should HAVE a college degree. Frankly, the students who want to learn shouldn't have to suffer waiting for the students who don't. We have plenty of that at the K12 level already.

You have a million reasons for why you "can't" attend school, and you fail to even TRY to achieve. The government does not OWE you a college degree. The government has provided you with plenty of means to obtain one and your failure to get it is not their fault.

I will stand by my assertion that there are plenty of opportunities for someone who wants a degree to get one. I have received ZERO scholarships, and have relied solely on government grants and the one loan to this point, so it isn't a matter of wisdom/intelligence that I am able to get to school.

As for SC's use of BlueDev as an example, BlueDev is hardly the typical college student, and I have zero doubt he will be able to pay back his student loans (that is, unless universal healthcare comes into play!)
Reply #49 Top

You can't force anyone out of the mud, danielost. People who don't WANT to change can just go on laying there. Sound callous? Yup, but frankly, my job is not to hold your hand!
End of quote


when and where did i say anything about forceing anyone any where,.
Reply #50 Top
the only thing i said about forcing was reading writing and math. we are already doing this.