Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

from JoeUser Forums

So Satan sitting in his home listening to the screams of the tormented with a smile on his face, decided the Jews were to close to G-d, and this really angered him, he had to find a way to divide the damned Jews, after all G-d decided they were his chosen people and what better target for his evil deeds than watering down the religion, Now Satan had great power, let us not forget that after all he was arch Angel, most high, one of the three named Angels that sat at G-ds side at one time.

So along comes this good man Jesus was his name, he had many good things to say and the people listened, so first Satan hardened the hearts of the Rabbis, made them jealous of Jesus and his huge following, then Satan allowed some minor so called miracles to happen, an easy task for one as powerful as Lucifer. Satan also knew of the prophecy of the Messiah, and he thought what a great idea if he could trick the Jews into believing that Jesus was the Messiah, he could one, break up the tribes of Israel, really anger G-d whom Lucifer hated beyond all things and of course lead people away from the one true faith of Judaism. Needless to say his plan worked the people of Israel {some} believed the Messiah had come, the Rabbis who Lucifer had tricked into believing this good man was a threat to their power played their part perfectly and had the Romans crucify Jesus {all part of the prophecy} Some years after the death of Jesus, Christianity was born, Jesus NEVER claimed to be a Christian, he was circumcised in the Jewish religion and took Bar mitzvah at 13 again following the Jewish religion. Never once did he or his disciples call what Jesus was preaching Christianity, what he was preaching was Judaism in it purest form, with stress on the 10 commandments as a way to live your life. Did this really happen? I have no Idea, but it is no more believable or unbelievable than Jesus being the Human Son of G-d. Meanwhile we Jews of the one true faith are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive and on that day there will be much celebrating, for we have waiting patiently a very long time for this to happen.

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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Show me the prophecy Jesus didn't fulfill, MM.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)JythierOctober 26, 2007 14:49:12


Show me the prophecy Jesus didn't fulfill, MM.


Prophecy is a set of things that are foretold, very easy for someone as powerful as Lucifer to rig. Remember I am a Jew to me Jesus does not meet the criteria for the Messiah. Not just me either Millions of Jews believe as I do.
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Which prophecy, MM? God said the Messiah would do a certain set of things, so you would recognize him. Do you think a God as powerful as ours would allow Satan to 'rig' someone to hit all of them? That would make God a liar, MM. God's not a liar.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)JythierOctober 26, 2007 15:05:29


Which prophecy, MM? God said the Messiah would do a certain set of things, so you would recognize him. Do you think a God as powerful as ours would allow Satan to 'rig' someone to hit all of them? That would make God a liar, MM. God's not a liar.


no G-d is never a liar, but he also said he would never interfere with Satan and his dealings with Man.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't remember that bit of scripture, but I do remember a bit of scripture about God 'allowing' Job to be tested by Satan. I also know some NT stuff with the same theme but I am guessing that would not matter to you.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)JythierOctober 26, 2007 15:16:39


also know some NT stuff with the same theme


nope, never read the new testament, it is a book written by men, while the old was written by G-d {the first five books}
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
You'd think Jews and Christians could get along...they believe in the same basic construct...maybe it really was a trick by Satan to further divide people and cause a whole shitstorm of trouble, because that's what it did.

Oh well...I'm just going to keep doing what I do: Trying to be a helpful person with minimal asshole behavior.

~Zoo
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I thought they were written by Moses.

Regardless, if you can't tell me which prophecy he didn't fulfill, you should ask your Rabbi about it. He should know, or at least have more time to investigate. Of course, if there IS one, I'm screwed.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't feel we're not getting along here. Just having a friendly conversation.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)Zoologist03October 26, 2007 15:38:15


You'd think Jews and Christians could get along...they believe in the same basic construct...maybe it really was a trick by Satan to further divide people and cause a whole shitstorm of trouble, because that's what it did.

Oh well...I'm just going to keep doing what I do: Trying to be a helpful person with minimal asshole behavior.


that's the ticket zoo, I guess I just had my fill of folks telling me I am going to hell because I will not accept Jesus as my lord and savior, hence me being a real first class prick and writng this.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)JythierOctober 26, 2007 15:43:12


I don't feel we're not getting along here. Just having a friendly conversation.


that we are.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
I guess I just had my fill of folks telling me I am going to hell


I think everyone does something that someone else condemns them to hell for...that's what really pisses me off about Christianity in general, all this judgement and hatred for others that don't fit the cardboard cutout that they have in their warped little minds.

And I'm a freakin' Christian.

Ghandi said it best, I think:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

~Zoo
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Zoologist03October 26, 2007 16:20:38


that's what really pisses me off about Christianity in general, all this judgement and hatred for others that don't fit the cardboard cutout that they have in their warped little minds.

And I'm a freakin' Christian.

Ghandi said it best, I think:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


I could not have said it better zoo, and I truly thank you for saying this, it has so much more meaning coming from a Christian.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
I could not have said it better zoo, and I truly thank you for saying this, it has so much more meaning coming from a Christian.


...and my Christian brethren will condemn me for saying it.

~Zoo
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
To hell with ye!

Seriously though, it's true. Some, most, a lot of christians are unlike Christ.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hi Moderateman,

Have you a copy of the Torah otherwise known as the first five books of the Old Testament?

We know that Judaism is a prophetic religion. Its prophecies centered in the coming of the Messias (the Christ) from the tribe of Judah, the house of David, of a Virgin, in the village of Bethlehem.

If you do, look up Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 15. It's the verse in which Moses shortly before he died prophecied the coming of the great prophet Christ. He wrote, "the Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation, and of thy brethren like unto me. Him thou shalt hear."

It seems to me that the Christ of the New Testament who Himself said He was God is the one that Moses prophecied. If you disagree, how do you explain that?



Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
You'd think Jews and Christians could get along...they believe in the same basic construct...


The dogmatic expression of belief in one God is the first part of the call of Moses upon Israel to believe and to do things holy in the sight of God.

The Christ came and took this teaching of Moses further than an act of reverent praise, thanksgiving, repentance, or petition to ALmighty God. This proclamation which the Christ called a commandment is an affirmation of belief that the God of Israel is ADONAI, Who is Absolute, Uncaused, One Eternal God, to be feared, loved, honored, and obeyed, a belief which is entirely in harmony with the Catholic concept of God.

So, as far as believing in the same basic construct, I'd say I'm batting one for one with MM.

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Maybe someone can support my theory that Jesus was a magician or illusionist. You know how david blaine, the magician, he does all these tricks like turning a cup of coffee into money etc. Maybe jesus did some other illusions like turning water into wine...

Just a thought
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: lulapilgrimPosted: Friday, October 26, 2007
Hi Moderateman,

Have you a copy of the Torah otherwise known as the first five books of the Old Testament?

We know that Judaism is a prophetic religion. Its prophecies centered in the coming of the Messias (the Christ) from the tribe of Judah, the house of David, of a Virgin, in the village of Bethlehem.

If you do, look up Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 15. It's the verse in which Moses shortly before he died prophesied the coming of the great prophet Christ. He wrote, "the Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation, and of thy brethren like unto me. Him thou shalt hear."

It seems to me that the Christ of the New Testament who Himself said He was God is the one that Moses prophecied. If you disagree, how do you explain that?

I just woke up and do believe that LITTLE whip answered all your questions, I hope now you can see where you have made a huge mistake in following this false Messiah and the religion created in his name and quickly as you can save your soul and switch to Judaism. I only say this out of concern for you eternal soul.

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Milan MehtaPosted: Saturday, October 27, 2007
Maybe someone can support my theory that Jesus was a magician or illusionist. You know how david blaine, the magician, he does all these tricks like turning a cup of coffee into money etc. Maybe jesus did some other illusions like turning water into wine...

Just a thought

Lucifer the great liar has almost  unlimited power on earth, all the miracles that Jesus was credited for Satan could easily have done.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: little-whipPosted: Saturday, October 27, 2007
Elvis has left the building!

To Much proof Sabrina, yer went and done killed all de beleivers.

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
To Much proof Sabrina, yer went and done killed all de beleivers.


Heh, heh.

~Zoo
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
I do understand why other Christians do speak of it. I'm sure it's offensive to people of differing beliefs, but if Christians honestly believe you'll go to hell for what you believe, wouldn't they be total dicks not to at least warn you of the danger of that hell? Sure, they won't win any popularity contests, but I'm sure the prophets of old weren't too highly admired for telling the Israelites that God is going have them killed and slaughtered all those times. That said, I do think many of them need to learn a little diplomacy when it comes to the subject.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
To Much proof Sabrina, yer went and done killed all de beleivers.


not quite so fast. Here's my take on this MM from another Jewish site btw. What are some reasons for beliieving Jesus is the Messiah?

It is important to begin by saying that for one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself.

When sincerely asked, this question is a good one. After all, there have been false Messiahs in Jewish history. Among the most prominent were Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Zevi. Bar Kochba led a revolt against Rome in the years 132-135 C.E.

During this revolt, one of the most famous figures in Jewish history, Rabbi Akiva, proclaimed him to be "King Messiah." Unfortunately, Bar Kochba, Akiva and thousands of Jews were killed in 135 C.E. when the Romans stormed the stronghold of Betar. Shabbetai Zevi, on the other hand, was a self-proclaimed Messiah. Flourishing in 17th-century Europe, the Shabbatean movement spread among both the common people and the rabbis. But when Shabbetai Zevi was arrested in 1666 by the Sultan of Turkey, he converted to Islam rather than face death. We have been tragically wrong before, so it is not surprising that hard evidence should be sought for believing in Jesus.

The idea of a Messiah is one that is found throughout the Hebrew Bible. There, the Messiah's "I.D." is given to us. Imagine looking up a friend by first locating his country. That would not be enough information, so you would need to ascertain his city, street, and specific number on that street. It would also help if you had a phone number and knew the time at which he would be home.

Similarly, the Bible tells us the "I.D." of the Messiah. His ethnic background, place of birth, time frame of his arrival and other identifying characteristics are given. These "credentials" enable us to identify the Messiah, and to recognize imposters.

Of course it might be objected that if these "credentials" are so clear, why didn't most Jewish people believe in Jesus, and why were they so taken in by false Messiahs like Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Zevi?

To understand this, one must realize that by the time of Jesus, the Messianic hope had become greatly politicized in the minds of the people. They were seeking deliverance from the tyranny of Rome. Although the Scripture spoke both of the sufferings and of the victories of the Messiah, the victorious aspect had become uppermost in the minds of the common people because of the Roman domination. This "lopsided" view of the Messiah has stuck with Jewish people, and the politicization of the Messianic hope has continued. Thus the hope of a political rather than a spiritual Messiah contributes to both the acceptance of people such as Bar Kochba, and the rejection of Jesus in his role as a Messiah.

This is not to say that all Jewish people rejected the claims of Jesus. Far from that being the case, all the first followers of Jesus were Jews. In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus. So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
Messiah would present himself by riding on an ass: Zechariah 9:9
Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12
In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The record of this fulfillment is to be found in the pages of the New Testament. But several other factors combine to further substantiate the Messiahship of Jesus.

In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming." he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn't prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.

Also, Jesus' life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do. Thus, Jesus worked many miracles of healing, bringing wholeness into people's lives, forgiving sin and restoring relationships. In contrast with Shabbetai Zevi, for instance, Jesus carried out the Law of Moses as a devout Jew. And in contrast with Bar Kochba, although Jesus also died, he was resurrected!

The resurrection is a third piece of additional evidence, and it is perhaps the most convincing vindication of Jesus' claims. It is interesting that an Israeli scholar, Pinchas Lapide, has written a book which has attracted no small amount of attention in the Jewish community. The reason is that Lapide has said that the resurrection of Jesus is well within the realm of possibility. After all, he reasoned, the Hebrew Scriptures give a number of accounts of people coming back to life. Why not Jesus as well? Regrettably, Lapide fails to note that the resurrection of Jesus is described in terms that go far beyond the resucitations of the other stories; and, he fails to come to grips with the fact that Jesus predicted his own resurrection, which vindicated his claims to Messiahship.

An assortment of explanations has been offered throughout history to explain away the resurrection as either non-historical ("It never happened.") or as non-supernatural ("Here's how it happened."). But these explanations have not been successful. Run down the possibilities for yourself and see which makes the best sense. Did the Roman authorities steal the body of Jesus from the tomb? Then why didn't they produce it when the word started being spread that Jesus was risen? Or maybe the disciples stole it. But could such a fabrication on their part account for the change in their attitude? Three days earlier they were disillusioned, defeated idealists who had hoped that Jesus would bring in a new world order; could a lie which they knew to be a lie, now account for their hope, their boldness in the face of official persecution, and for the high ethical standards they set?

Or perhaps Jesus never died: he just fainted on the cross and revived in the tomb. This idea was popularized in the book The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield. Unfortunately the author overlooked the fact that the Romans pierced Jesus' side, which would have most certainly killed him. Also, there was a contingent of Roman soldiers guarding the tomb as well as a huge stone that blocked its entrance. There was no way that a resuscitated Jesus could have escaped and then convinced hundreds of skeptical eyewitnesses that he had conquered death forever! Or was it all a mass hallucination? It must have been quite a hallucination to be seen by vastly different kinds of people at different times of day in many different places. You might be able to fool one person, but can you fool five hundred who saw him at one time? And unlike the pattern of hallucinations, these appearances of the resurrected Jesus stopped as suddenly as they started, forty days after the resurrection took place.

The only satisfactory explanation is that the resurrection actually occurred, just as the record says. And if that's the case, it's a solid reason for accepting the Messiahship of Jesus.

Finally, Jesus transforms people's lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people's lives. Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, "Man is estranged from the womb." That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.

So, between the objective evidence of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and the subjective verification in our own lives--we think there's ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be!

***************************************************************************************************************************************

There's so much more....we've barely touched the tip of the iceburg here.

Link
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Meanwhile we Jews of the one true faith


Not just me either Millions of Jews believe as I do.


I hope now you can see where you have made a huge mistake in following this false Messiah and the religion created in his name and quickly as you can save your soul and switch to Judaism. I only say this out of concern for you eternal soul.


So here saying you're concerned for my eternal soul, you are urging that I convert to Judaism which you say is the one true faith that you and millions of other Jews believe.

Me, a Catholic, switch to modern day Judaism?

MM, you must pay more attention to truth in labeling for modern day Judaism isn't the one true faith of God that you claim it is. There is only one God and therefore there can only be one religion of God's making. That religion was Old Covenant Judaism and it contained Christianity, the religion that fulfilled or completed it. In OC Judaism, the only religion of God in the ages before Christ, there was the Promise, Christ, and the family of David from which Christ was to come, and did come.

Old Covenant Judaism contained a priesthood of Aaron and Mosaic sacrifices that the Old Testament said would be displaced, as it has been, by a priesthood without genealogy, and a "clean oblation" in place of the bloody oblations of the Old Covenant. Therefore, Catholics hold Catholicism with its Christ-instituted priesthood and Eucharistic Sacrifice, to be Old Covenant Judaism full-blossomed.

I shall pull my points forward and address some of LW' comment in another post so this one won't be too long.