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Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

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Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

from JoeUser Forums

So Satan sitting in his home listening to the screams of the tormented with a smile on his face, decided the Jews were to close to G-d, and this really angered him, he had to find a way to divide the damned Jews, after all G-d decided they were his chosen people and what better target for his evil deeds than watering down the religion, Now Satan had great power, let us not forget that after all he was arch Angel, most high, one of the three named Angels that sat at G-ds side at one time.

So along comes this good man Jesus was his name, he had many good things to say and the people listened, so first Satan hardened the hearts of the Rabbis, made them jealous of Jesus and his huge following, then Satan allowed some minor so called miracles to happen, an easy task for one as powerful as Lucifer. Satan also knew of the prophecy of the Messiah, and he thought what a great idea if he could trick the Jews into believing that Jesus was the Messiah, he could one, break up the tribes of Israel, really anger G-d whom Lucifer hated beyond all things and of course lead people away from the one true faith of Judaism. Needless to say his plan worked the people of Israel {some} believed the Messiah had come, the Rabbis who Lucifer had tricked into believing this good man was a threat to their power played their part perfectly and had the Romans crucify Jesus {all part of the prophecy} Some years after the death of Jesus, Christianity was born, Jesus NEVER claimed to be a Christian, he was circumcised in the Jewish religion and took Bar mitzvah at 13 again following the Jewish religion. Never once did he or his disciples call what Jesus was preaching Christianity, what he was preaching was Judaism in it purest form, with stress on the 10 commandments as a way to live your life. Did this really happen? I have no Idea, but it is no more believable or unbelievable than Jesus being the Human Son of G-d. Meanwhile we Jews of the one true faith are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive and on that day there will be much celebrating, for we have waiting patiently a very long time for this to happen.

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Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top
LW -

My response to you was and will continue to be to seek further information before I accept what you've said. It was taken into consideration. I have not yet come to a point where I have the information to respond, and I may not ever, as I do not speak Hebrew. If the Bible is mistranslated, I have to rely on other people to tell me that. As for the other prophecies mentioned, I will continue to look into them.

I wanted to know what a Rabbi had to say on the subject, and as my Rabbi contacts are currently nil, I decided to just ask MM instead. I was curious, because how can a believer in the Torah say Jesus was not the Messiah if He fulfills all the prophecies? So I wanted to know what they say he didn't fulfil. You answered that question, so I stopped asking about it.

If I had a counterpoint I would have offered it, but since I do not I didn't post "I have no counterpoint for that" because I may have one tomorrow. But, now that you've brought it up, at the current time I don't have a counterpoint.

I get into the frey often enough. I felt that the question, "Which prophecy didn't Jesus fulfill" was a good one and needed an answer, so I asked for one and, in the end, didn't even get an answer from MM. And you jump on me for letting informed people argue instead of me. He did the same thing, except he started it.
Reply #52 from JoeUser Forums Top
you've at least done your homework and put some thought and research into your rebuttals,


Yes, I have, but wow, I just re-read what I hastily posted, and see that I must really work on my typing skills!   
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top

Listen folks I am not a Jewish scholar.... When My father died I was 14, at this point I went to the roof of where I lived and commited the gravest sin I could, I threw My Tales{SP?} {prayer shawl} My tefalim{sp?} The wraps that go around the right arm and the head, My yarmulke and my Torah off the roof into the gutter, and screamed at G-d Fuck you!! I am done with you! It stayed this way until just a few short years ago {three} when I realized that G-d had not deserted me, I had deserted him and none the less he had his hand on my shoulder all these years while I was playing bad guy. He has kept me alive three times now that I should have been dead, once in Vietnam, once when I was shot to death in 1967 in the streets of NYC and was brought back and just recently in January with the Coma. There must be a reason he has not called me to leave this body and keeps me around, do I know what the reason is? hell no!! Do I understand that I am  A JEW with a proud tradition? yes I do.

So don't expect me to expound on Jewish Torah as I know so little.

Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh, so you're about where I am. The knowing so little part.
Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)JythierOctober 29, 2007 14:35:43


Oh, so you're about where I am. The knowing so little part.


yes, But I am learning, studying the Torah, I have always eaten Kosher, But do not keep a Kosher household, due to my wife. {no excuse just fact} I feel the need to feed, a hunger if you must to get closer to G-d.
Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top
Your personal story is uplifting because it gets to the very core of our reason for being on this earth in the first place. Each one of us is here for a purpose and realizing this is a step forward in our own personal journey called life.


So don't expect me to expound on Jewish Torah as I know so little.


Ya, MM, we already would have guessed that as you've admitted before this before. Just believing in the Torah, as we do, is common ground.

As I've said before, I believe every word of the Five Books of Moses (the Torah) to be the inspired word of God. Where the fun comes in and the sparks fly is in its interpretion and applying that to our lives today and our respective beliefs. From your standpoint according Mosaic Judaism with the practice of modern Judaism and from mine according Mosaic Judaism with the fulfillment of its prophecies in the birth, life, works, death and resurrection of the promised Messiah. To me, I see it clearly as this screen in front of me, that Christianity became the reality, the completion, the fulfilllment of the holy things Mosiac Judaism foreshadowed.


Do I understand that I am A JEW with a proud tradition? yes I do.


In researching the Talmud and something of Jewish tradition, I read this quote from Vallentine's Jewish Encyclopedia,

"The mental intensity of Jews, their intellectuality, is very likely an inherited result of studying and memorizing the oral law in pre-Christian times, and the study of the Talmud since then. Judaism is a debating society...the tendency of Jews to enter into interminable discussions, with very little regard for each other's opinions. It is the cause of what Jews call "pilpul" (word connected with pepper) a tendency to indulge in dialectics for dialectics sake, characterized by exaggerated quibbling and hair-splitting."

That's why I guess after reading this, I found it rather odd that you didn't want to continue 'arguing' through this discussion, but now it's more clear since you acknowledge that you aren't strong on expounding on the Torah.

Well, as far as I can tell, no one amongst us is!
Reply #57 from JoeUser Forums Top
lulapilgrimOctober 29, 2007 15:32:26


Your personal story is uplifting because it gets to the very core of our reason for being on this earth in the first place. Each one of us is here for a purpose and realizing this is a step forward in our own personal journey called life.


how true,. how true, and kind of you since there has been so much heated debate going on.


Elie, of the tribe of Levi
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top
Did I miss the party?

Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top
yes, But I am learning, studying the Torah, I have always eaten Kosher, But do not keep a Kosher household, due to my wife. {no excuse just fact} I feel the need to feed, a hunger if you must to get closer to G-d.


Ya gotta start somewhere Elie.

Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Adventure-DudePosted: Monday, October 29, 2007
Did I miss the party?

Nah yer a newly wed, yer should be boinking yer brains into mush

Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Adventure-DudePosted: Monday, October 29, 2007
yes, But I am learning, studying the Torah, I have always eaten Kosher, But do not keep a Kosher household, due to my wife. {no excuse just fact} I feel the need to feed, a hunger if you must to get closer to G-d.


Ya gotta start somewhere Elie.

What better place to start than................. at the beginning?

Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top
What better place to start than................. at the beginning?


Absolutely my friend.

One thing that's for certain the Jews and Christians are both looking forward to a king Messiah.
Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)Adventure-DudeOctober 29, 2007 17:49:39


Absolutely my friend.

One thing that's for certain the Jews and Christians are both looking forward to a king Messiah.


We await his arrival, they await his second coming. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top
Elie, of the tribe of Levi


Elie, what do you know of the tribe of Levi?

Here's what little I know without doing more research. From Deuteuronomy 7 that Isreal became a "chosen" a "special people" through Abram selected by God. Abram name was changed to Abraham and he was to be magnified, "the father of many nations." Gen. 17:5.

From Abraham came Isaac, whose son Jacob's name was changed to Israel. Jacob was the father of the 12 sons who became the fathers of the 12 tribes of Israel. The children of Isreal were chosen by God to be the keepers, teachers and interpreters of His Law. This Law included a priesthood selected from the tribe of Levi and the selection of Judah as the tribe from which the promised Messiah, the Son of David, would come to fulfill the Law. The Israelites were especially favored by being the people from whom all the great prophets came, through whom God told the world of the great things that were to take place in Israel until "God Himself would come and save them." Isaias 35:4; 40:10.

After Joseph's death at the age of 110 years, Gen. 50, the superiority of the children of Israel descended not to Josephs's sons but to his 3rd brother Levi, who lived to be 137 years old. In Exodus 6:16, Levi's geneology is shown and from his line comes Aaron and Moses.


Reply #65 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey, Mod...I notice you often spell God without the 'o'. You know it's probably alright to write "God" since that's not really his name. Or perhaps you have a different reason...just curious.

~Zoo
Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top
We await his arrival, they await his second coming. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.


Do all Jews, no matter what their religious practice, await His arrival in the way or do Orthodox, Reform and Conservative Jews see it differently?

For Christians, the Messiah came 2,000 years ago. Catholics believe He's presently reigning over His kingdom from Heaven. This is known as the Millenium reign which began at His Ascension into Heaven and will continue until His Second Coming in Final Judgment at the end of the world. Although NT Scripture gives us certain signs of the end of the world, only God knows the hour and the day.





...and Catholicism teaches we are to keep watch and pray...no speculating is to be done.
Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top
Elie, of the tribe of Levi


Well, if you're from the tribe of Levi then you're not a Jew, MM. You're a Levite.

So you better quit saying you're a Jew.
Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top
Elie, of the tribe of Levi


Elie, just curious...how do you know you're of the tribe of Levi? Haven't all the records been lost that link the modern Jews to their tribes when Jerusalem was destroyed?
Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey, Mod...I notice you often spell God without the 'o'. You know it's probably alright to write "God" since that's not really his name. Or perhaps you have a different reason...just curious.


Zoo, most Jews do that to create a reverence to the Tetragramaton (Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey). Other ways that you'll see the name expressed is through Adonai (similar meaning to Lord) or Hashem (The Name). If you recall back in the Torah and Old Testament there are many reasons to have a reverent fear of G-D (and to not use HIS name loosely at the risk of taking HIS name in vain). It's also just a way to show respect to the creator but you are correct no one 'has to' only if you feel convicted that way.
Reply #70 from JoeUser Forums Top
Uh oh, I don't mean to start a theological discussion but this doesn't make sense.

For Christians, the Messiah came 2,000 years ago. Catholics believe He's presently reigning over His kingdom from Heaven. This is known as the Millenium reign which began at His Ascension into Heaven and will continue until His Second Coming in Final Judgment at the end of the world.


Messiah ascended approx 1974 years ago. Millennium = 1,000years. So according to the Catholics Jesus' reign ended about 974 years ago?

How do the Catholics explain this one?
Reply #71 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, if you're from the tribe of Levi then you're not a Jew, MM. You're a Levite.

So you better quit saying you're a Jew.


Well, Sancho... in Elie's case he is the one that makes the coffee. Why do I say this? Because HeBrews.

Bad joke I know but couldn't resist.
Reply #72 from JoeUser Forums Top
Millennium = 1,000years.


As you know not everything in Scripture is to be taken literally. The Millenium is to be understood as a "long period of time". It stretches from the time of Christ's Death, Resurrection, and Ascension to His Second Coming whenever that may be. Jesus' Ascended into Heaven in 33AD and is presently reigning over his kingdom on earth and will until He comes again in judgment. This time period is known as the Millenial reign of Christ. The Millenium is mentioned in the Book of the Apocalypse 20:4-7.

It's very important to note that the Catholic Church has never considered the "Millenium" per se as an article of faith. That Christ is in Heaven reigning, yes, but the meaning of Millenium as per the obscure text of Scripture is something not yet definitively taken up by the Church, and may never be. In reading the Gospels and the Epistles, there is no trace of a future Millenium. The Resurrection of the just and the unjust, the Final Judgment, and the end of the world are mentioned as in close succession, leaving no possible room for a mythical physical reign of Christ for a literal 1,000 years.

So, there you have it, Catholics think the Millenium signifies the long period of time immediately proceeding the Final Judgment. That would make is living in the Millenium now. The spiritual combat between good and evil is going on now and will culminate with the battle of Christ and Satan at the end of the world. We already know the outcome and that's why we pray, Come, Lord, Come.

In general though, you'll find that people are all over the map on what the Millenium means.



Reply #73 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks Lula.

Do you mind elaborating on Revelations 20:1-6?
Reply #74 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: SanChoninoPosted: Monday, October 29, 2007
Elie, of the tribe of Levi


Well, if you're from the tribe of Levi then you're not a Jew, MM. You're a Levite.

So you better quit saying you're a Jew.

 

Levi

Third son of Jacob and Leah and father of the tribe of Levi, from whom the Levites are descended. The tribe of Levi is one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Since Leah had already given Jacob two sons, she said "Now my husband will be joined with me" (Genesis 30:34). The Levites were distinguished as servants to God because of their refusal to worship to Golden Calf (Exodus 32: 26-29). Levi's own three sons, Gerhson, Kahath and Merari, become Temple servants. After Levi's sister Dinah was raped by Shechem, he and his brother Simeon destroyed the entire town. Levi was later involved in the plot to sell his brother Joseph into slavery.

My last name is a dead give away about what tribe I belong to.

Reply #75 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Zoologist03Posted: Monday, October 29, 2007
Hey, Mod...I notice you often spell God without the 'o'. You know it's probably alright to write "God" since that's not really his name. Or perhaps you have a different reason...just curious.

I believe I NOW, always spell G-d, just to be careful so I do not take HIS name in vain.