MM posts:

You have me grinning a big grin on this one....too much proof!!??



I'll second that! Proof, what proof? Hint: If you and LW want to counter, it must be with the Torah, or Old Testament, not the Talmud.




KFC posted:

This says it all, KFC. This says it all.   

Actually that was an amused "heh, heh" not a sarcastic "heh, heh."

I'm just watching the fireworks at this point.

~Zoo

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2) Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended. B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities. The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (2) C. TORAH OBSERVANCE The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

 

It says that if the so called Messiah fails to reach even one benchmark One, ONE ONE get it yet? ONE benchmark ONe one one!!!!!!! he CANNOT BE CANNOT BE CANNOT BE the Messiah, Whip showed many Benchmarks Jesus did not reach Many many many but I will settle for ONE ONE ONE..

JYTHIER POSTS:

He can't Jythier because there aren't any.


We have proof of Christ from Old Testament prophecies and their fulfillment.

Christ, the Anointed, the Messiah as the Israelites designated the expected Son of David, was foretold to come as far back as the first era of man. For His coming the Israelites had hoped and prayed throughout the whole history of Isreal. Here are some of the prophecies of His coming that have been fulfilled.

To Eve, God made known that in "the seed of a woman" the serpent's head (mystically Satan and all his servants) would be crushed Gen. 3:15. That "seed" was the Christ child, born of the Holy Spirit St.Luke 1:34-35, "begotten" Psalm 2:7, not made in the natural way.

To Jacob, God made known the the "expected of nations", the Messiah, would come when the "sceptre" (the kingly, tribal, legislative authority) shall have been taken from Judah Gen.49:10. Its fulfilllment was in Christ, Who came when Judea had been reduced to a mere province of the Roman Empire; when Herod, who was not of the house of David, had usurped the throne of David, when the sovereignity of Judah was no more.

To Daniel 9:27, God made known that in 70 weeks of years (490 years), the Messiah, the Anointed One, would come; that He would be slain, and the "abomination of desolation" would take place in the Temple. All these predictions took place in the first century of Christ's era. St.Matt. 24:15.

To Isaias 7:14, God made known more fully than before Gen. 3:15, that the Messiah would be born of a Virgin. This miraculous birth of the Son of God, our Lord, is recorded in St.Matt. 1:23, and St.Luke's Gospels. 1:31-38.

To Micheas 5:2, God made known that the birth of His only Begotten Son would take place in Bethlehem Ephrata. The record of the birth of the Messiah, to whom the shepherds and Kings paid Divine homage is recorded in St.Matt. 2:6, and St.Luke 2:6.

To Balaam, GOd made known that a Star (the symbol of regal power, of glory, the emblem of the Messiah), shall rise out of Jacob Numb. 24:7. upon His coming. It's fulfillment is seen in the Magi, who, guided by the Star, travelled from the East to the Crib of Christ in Bethlehem. St.Matt. 2:1-3.

To David, God made known that the Christ would be "a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedec" i.e. He would be without geneology, offering bread and wine for sacrifice, Psalm 109:4, Christ demonstrated His Melchisedemic mission when, at the Last Supper, He consecrated bread and wine for sacrifice. St. Paul tells us this perfect Priest, and the priesthood He instituted to take the place of the imperfect Aaronic priesthood of Israel. Heb. 7:4-25.

To Moses, God made known that a Prophet would be raised up, whom the LawGiver commanded Israel to "hear". Deut. 18:15. Christ claimed to be that Prophet. St. John 5:45-47.

To Zacharais, GOd made known that Israel's King would come to them, riding on an ass 9:9. This royal prediction was fulfilled a week before Christ traveled on the road to Calvary, when the Jewish populace in Jerusalem hailed their King with hosannahs to the SOn of David. St.Matt. 21:5-10.

To Isaias, God made known in terms clearer than ever before, that the Christ is God Himself, "God Himself will come and save you." 35:4. Isaias called Him the "Emmanuel, God with us." 7:14, God, the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace." 9. He told in detail of the Christ being wounded for our iniquities, being led to slaughter, laying down His life for the sin of the world. 53. The fulfillment of this prophecy is recorded in the Four Gospels.

To Jonah, or rather in him, God typified the great miracle of miracles, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. As Jonah, the prophet, was in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights, so Christ was in the heart of the earth. He reanimated His Body and rose from the dead on the third day, Jonah 3:5, St.Matt. 12: 38-41. 1Cor. 15:14.

yes, I agree MM. Just one failure wouldn't be from God. God has to be 100%. Moses even outlined that percentage idea in Deut 18 himself. I believe it to be true.

Whip did not show that. I can point by point show you this by using only Jewish prophesies but for the sake of brevity...this would take all night....can you pick just one for me to address?

Just for instance tho.....the Jews returning to their homeland? They ARE returning to their homeland. 1948 is prophecy come true in our lifetime!!!! They had been dispursed for OVER 2000 years and now coming back. And it's continuing. The third temple? Nowhere does it say in OT scripture that Jesus would build it. It just says that it will be built..that's it. But it will be built and plans are being laid right now or are actually even finished for this new temple.

See MM the prophets saw the first coming and the second coming and it was kind of blurred to them. They wrote what they saw in detail but both comings are in view. They did not see the church age. Their prophecy was only only only on the coming Messiah. They had NO idea that when he came their own people would reject him. It's like it was a blip off their radar. Paul speaks about this in Romans.

That's why the Pharisees didn't accept him. He didn't do and liberate them as they had expected. They were looking at 2nd coming scripture and trying to put it with his first coming.

They were perplexed tho. He had the pedigree. His geneology was never in question. He fit the bill. He had the words. He had the works (miracles) and there was division as a result. Some of the Jewish Pharisees like Nicodemus believed him. After his resurrection many more came to the faith. The first converts were ALL Jews. But there was a division as there still is today.

The problem is...they have never been able to explain where the body is. All they had to do was come up with a dead body and it was never done.

Also the most prolific writer of the NT was a Jewish Pharisees. All the writers of the NT were Jews but one. Luke, the physician was the only Gentile to write his book.

Mine was a ha, ha moment as well. See, I first wrote:

Christ does not contradict the Torah. In the case of St. John 9:14, His actions amplify the teaching of the Sabbath.

Here's the entire passage. 14-17

"14 Now it was the Sabbath day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15 The Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. ANd he said the them, "He put some clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see." 16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner do such things?" There was a division amongst them. 17 So they again said to the blind man, "What do you say about him who opened your eyes?" He said, "He is a prophet."

So, MM, do you think the Pharisees wanted to hear the cured man say that Christ was a prophet on the Sabbath? Probably not, right?

Here, the Pharisees bring up the same accusation as they did when the paralyzed man was cured beside the pool. St.Jn. 5:10 and as on other occasions. Jesus had broken the law becasue He cures the sick on the Sabbath. CHrist had often taught that observance of the law of the Sabbath rest was compatible with the duty to do good. Charity, the good of others, takes precedence over all the other commandments. If rules are given precedence in a blind sort of way over the inescapable obligations of justice and charity, the result is fanaticism which always goes against the Gospel and even against right reason---as happens in this instance with the Pharisees.

Their minds are so closed that they do not want to see God's hand in something which simply could not be done without Divine power. The dilemna they pose themselves --is He a man of God, as His miracles imply; or a sinner, becasue He does not keep the Sabbath----can only arise in people whose outlook is that of religious fanatics. Their mistaken interpretation of how certain precepts should be kept leads them to forget the essence of the Law---Love of God and of neighbor.

To avoid accepting Jesus' Divinity, the Pharisees reject the only possible correct interpretation of the miracle; whereas the blind man--like all unprejudiced open to the truth---finds solid grounds in the miracle for confessing that CHrist works through the power of GOd: He supported and confirmed his preaching by miracles to arouse the faith of his hearers and give them assurance, but not to coerce them.

To put even more simply Lula. Christ is the Sabbath. He is the rest spoken of in the OT. The Sabbath points to him. The Sabbath was just a shadow of the real thing. The Pharisees rejected him and the rest he offered.

"Come to me all you who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Jeeze I just woke up and here we are again, the proof that Jesus did not fulfill ALL the benchmarks for Messiah are written out in front of you, but you cannot accept the truth of things, I have been holding back not for years out of respect for other religions, but I have just had enough of it. Whip as a  scholar { I am not} has shown Jesus misses many prophecy, you choose to ignore them. end of discussion. When someone quote verse from the bible proving the marks Jesus missed and you ignore it, how can their be any conversation, even if Jesus hit 99 out of 100 he still CANNOT BE THE MESSIAH!

I have been holding back not for years out of respect for other religions, but I have just had enough of it.

ME TOO. very much so.

It is really sad that we concentrate on issues that can not be resolved by us humans. The nature of God and Who is, was, or will be the Messaiah is better left to be self-resolved. and sooner or later it will.

isn't it better that we realize that the Three Abrahamic religions say almost the same thing regarding what and how humans are supposed to do and behave? isn't that enough?

Isn't it more productive and useful for ALL of us to discuss the details of these common grounds?

Are the difefrences in issues we cant understand or resolve more important than the details of the issues that we all recognize?

we better get hold of our senses otherwise we are going crazy.

Ok, here's the verse LW is referring to:

5 Fear not for I am with thee I will bring your seed from the east and gather you from the west; 6I will say to the north, Give up and to the south, keep not back; bring my sons from far and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Where does it say LW that Christ was to fulfill this in his first coming? Isaiah in his book was warning of the Babylonian captivity. He also gave assurance of the preservation of the people and restoration of the nation...which is what you brought up here. What I want to know...is where does it say that Christ was SUPPOSED to fulfil this in his first coming?

Now if you want to really talk about the restoration of Israel then you want to go to Ezek 37 which has all to do with the resuscitation of the nation which is what I was referring to. That is happening now.



No, it doesn't. The entire NT (exception Luke) was written by Jews.



First off Isa 7:14 fits under the law of double fulfillment. Second of all. Jesus being born of a virgin did link to King David. Mary was related to David's son Nathan so her blood line came directly from King David. His title came from Joseph who was directly in line with Solomon who was Nathan's brother and also David's other more prominent son.

I will stand by the fact that EVERY OT prophecy concerning Jesus' first coming HAS come true. There are other prophecies that refer to his second coming and they have not come true yet, but the beginning stage is being set. Israel coming into her own land (Ezek 37) is one very big proof of this.



Where's this proof MM? I haven't seen it. I've seen just the opposite. He has fulfilled EVERY benchmark for his first coming. Did you not read what the Jews said on the site I gave you? Total opposite of what you want to believe.

I too have Jewish blood running thru my veins. My great great grandfather was a Jewish Rabbi who actually ended up denoucing God because of the persecution of the Jews.

I too have Jewish blood running thru my veins. My great great grandfather was a Jewish Rabbi who actually ended up denoucing God because of the persecution of the Jews.

Reply By: KFC Kickin For ChristPosted: Sunday, October 28, 2007

I am through argueing this, I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. The end.

As for your Jewish blood, no you don't since by Jewish law, bloodlines flow from the mother, if your mother is not a Jew neither are you, nor can you lay claim to any Jewish blood, Not being mean, just a fact.

Well my mother would have been the Jew. Her Father was Catholic so she was brought up Catholic and so was I.



Ok, MM. That's what I thought. I won't add any more then.

Reply By: ThinkAloudPosted: Sunday, October 28, 2007 I have been holding back not for years out of respect for other religions, but I have just had enough of it. ME TOO. very much so. It is really sad that we concentrate on issues that can not be resolved by us humans. The nature of God and Who is, was, or will be the Messaiah is better left to be self-resolved. and sooner or later it will. isn't it better that we realize that the Three Abrahamic religions say almost the same thing regarding what and how humans are supposed to do and behave? isn't that enough? Isn't it more productive and useful for ALL of us to discuss the details of these common grounds? Are the difefrences in issues we cant understand or resolve more important than the details of the issues that we all recognize? we better get hold of our senses otherwise we are going crazy.

wonderful reply, my thoughts exactly, till this latest outburst of mine. I have always contended there are many paths to G-D, it just pisses me off when some folks insist their way IS THE ONLY WAY.

If God had only one way, would you be pissed at Him for insisting on it?

HE does have one way. And none of the followers of the the three religions have a reason to be pissed. Unless of course they create their own reasons for getting pissed.The three of them say essentially the same thing over and over and over again, sometimes in the SAME EXACT WORDS. He always warned all of us against arguing about things we cant comprehend and HE clearly said HE will be the judge of the three points of view on the day of Judgement. Unforthunately that is what most of us do. It is us not Him who created the reasons to be pissed off.

Ask any of the followers of the three religions the following question: DO you believe in the God of Abraham and His religion?

what would be the answer of the more than 4 Billion people? every single one of them.

Then look at what we argue about.

It is shameful and a disgrace to all of us that we dont realize what we are doing.

Abraham must be ashamed of us, no question in my mind about that.

How does a Jewish person know they're going to heaven? Because they're Jewish? Is there something they need to do to get in? I'm unfamiliar with how that works. And the other religion, how does one get to heaven?

That you believe what you believe and others believe what they believe is the way it was BEFORE you wrote this article...so in that regard nothing has changed between then and NOW..in that we both still believe what we believe.

That having been said doesn't allow the fact that in between then and now you wrote this article asking 2 poignant questions DIRECTLY RELATED TO OUR RESPECTIVE BELIEFS. Weren't your questions an invitation to discuss and defend our respective beliefs?

MM is just the moderator, it appears. LW made some points, KFC made some points, and just as KFC was getting up steam... moderator throws her out, leaving LW to make any point she wants without KFC to make counterpoints. Well, it leaves me and Lula, but I don't agree with Lula about a lot of things, and I'm not exactly a biblical scholar at this point.

MM, if you want to talk about your own beliefs, that's fine, and it's okay to not be argued with. But if you're going to talk about Christian beliefs, you should expect and be prepared for Christians to come here and debate them, discuss them, and generally try to defend their beliefs. Disallowing that is inconsistent with the tolerance you seem to care so much about.

I Did not "throw KFC out' I just did not want to continue this as it was getting no where, no matter how many points a Christian makes I am going to stay a JEW no matter how many points I make KFC and lulu and you are going to remain Christian.

Regardless, there are some people who see your title, read your article, and say, "Hey, that's a good point." Then they read LW's portion, "That's a good point to. This Jesus thing is looking bad." Then KFC makes some points, "Oh, that's how it works. Jesus is looking better..." etc. The argument is not for your benefit, unless you want it to be. That YOU won't convert does not mean we aren't getting somewhere. I only want people who want to be Christians to be Christians. All others need not apply. But the discussion will be read by more than just you and me and KFC and Lula and LW. There are some undecideds that may stop by.

Ok I understand, If you folks want this to be a come to Jesus article I shall let it be. I will no longer argue about it. How is that for fair?

Any article focusing on Jesus is going to be a come to Jesus article as long as the truth is included.

MM WRITES:




Yes, MM, it's good and fair.

AND SO LET THE DISCUSSION RESUME......

LW POSTS: #19

LW POSTS: #36




LW POSTS: #36


Properly understood, Isaias' prophecies of chapters 7 through 13 were fulfilled in Christ.

In Isaias 6, God calls Isaias for his vocation as a prophet by having the seraphim angels purify his lip's with a burning coal removing all his sins. Isaias 6:9-10 tells us the message Isaias is to deliver is hard hitting and full of paradoxes. It's to tell God's first chosen people that if they fail to listen to the word of God (that could soften and move their hearts), their hearts will be blinded; they won't see things right; and because of that the sinner will feel no heed to take stock of his position and be converted. Christ preached the fulfillment of Is. 6:9-10 in St.Matt. 13:13-15, St.Mark 4:11-12. Same of St.John 12:27-41 and St.Paul also uses Isaias to reproach the Jews of Rome for rejecting the message of the Christ Acts. 28:23-28.

The people's hardness of heart will merit severe punishment, but all won't be lost: a holy seed will remain and from it the tree will grow back again v. 11-13. Make no mistake, these verses carry a message for people of all ages.

First, the series of Isaias' prophecies, Chs. 7 through 13 is called the Book of Immanu-el. Immanu-el----that's the first hint he's prophesing the Christ because its climax is taken to be the mysterious announcement of a Messiah-Savior, called "Immanu-el", which means "God with us" 7:14.

Ch. 7 of the Immanu-el prophecy begins with the announcement of a God-given the sign of salvation and contains the passage you refer to about the young woman (Virgin) who shall conceive and bear a son. The sign has a double meaning.
Ch. 7 is the account of of Isaias' meeting with King Ahaz in whcih the king is in 2 minds as to what to do in face of the pressure to join the coalition against the Assyrians made up of Israel (aka Ephraim), whose capital was Samaria, and Syria (Aram) whose capital was Damascus.

Isaias message is a warning to Judah that it should put its trust in God, belieing in His word, and not take refuge in any political alliance. It ends abruptly with the threat that if Ahaz fails to listen, their downfall will soon follow. It says that Isaias' son, Shear-jashub, which means "a remnant shall return", is present at his exchange with Ahaz. This presence implies that in some way God will ensure the permanent survival of the people, that is there will always be a remnant who will come back to the Lord and recover what has been lost.

The Lord offers Ahaz a sign that he has no reason to fear the threats made by the kings of Syria and Israel: a maiden will conceive and bear a son who will be called Immanuel, within a few years before the boy reaches the age of reason, the 2 kingdoms that Ahaz fears will be laid low, and Judah will enjoy even greater prosperity. Isaias' words taken at the time literally would have been easy for all to understand.

And second, the Revelation of Christ and salvation through Him is developed from the 3 elements of v. 7:14, namely, the mother, the child, and His name, Immanuel. All the Hebrews of the day understood what was meant. The mother is a maiden, a young woman who has had no children previously. In the 2nd century BC, when OT Scripture was translated from Hebrew to Greek, it is in this context the word, "maiden" was translated to "virgin". Taken forward, St.Luke 1:28-38 tells that the angel Gabriel greeted Mary as "full of grace"; that the Lord was with her and that she was blessed and would conceive a son and name him Jesus. The Blessed Virgin was very puzzled at this and asked, "How shall this be done, because I know not man?" Gabriel explained that the conception would be through the power of the Holy Ghost...and she agreed that it be done.

By setting her pregnancy in the context of a sign given to the king, the point is that something quite important is involved.

The child, the son is the most important part of the sign. If the prophecy refers to Ahaz’s son, the future King Hezekiah, it would be indicationg that his birth will be a sign of diinve protectin, bvecause it will mean that the dynasty will contineu. If it refers to another child, not yet known, the prophet’s words would mean that the child’s birth could manifest the hope that “God was going to be with us” and his reaching the age of discretion, v. 16, would indicate the advent of peace. The Child’s birth would then be the sign that “God is with us.” The New testament completes the Old and the deeper meaning of these words finds fulfillment. Mary is Virgin and Mother, and her Son is not a symbol of God’s protection, but God Himself who dwells among us.

The word “Immanuel” is a prophetic indication of the revelation that the child’s birth implies, just as the names of Ahaz’s sons also contain revelation. Shear-jashub means “a remnant shall return” 7:3, and Mahershalal-hash-baz meanisn “the spoiling speeds, the prey hastens”. 8:1-3. In the New testament the name “Immanuel” conveys the joyful news that Jesus the Christ is truly “God with us.”