JillUser JillUser

So, I'm Going to Hell

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So, I'm Going to Hell

from JoeUser Forums
I have been told at different times over my entire life that I am going to Hell. I wasn't baptized as a baby= going to hell. Don't belong to a church = going to hell. Lived with my fiancee before we got married = going to hell.

I personally don't see how any of those things would warrant my being sent to eternal damnation. I am a good person. I treat others as I would have them treat me. My family means the world to me. I am respectful of my parents. I have never harmed another. I donate time and money to charity. I help friends and family whenever possible.

I am open minded about religion. I have not been convinced yet that I belong with any particular organized religion. That doesn't mean I am an atheist though.

I guess I have always wondered how an all knowing God could look at me and send me to Hell. I know many catholics that play by the rules of the church but aren't more loving or caring than I. Why would God accept them and damn me?

So I go on living, learning and being thankful in the ways that fit me. I tend to think that God will judge me on those merits.
religion
20,090 views 181 replies
Reply #76 from JoeUser Forums Top
psyfect, you are not being objective. You are getting defensive and not offering anything constructive. Please stop commenting on this post. If you have something constructive, I will welcome it but if you offer more of what you have been writing, I will delete it. BTW, I can believe that Jesus existed without believing the bible is the word of God. I don't have to believe Jesus is the son of God. I also was not asking what the Bible says about Jesus' babtism, I was wondering what people thought it meant.

Poetmom, I think it is great that you continue your quest for knowledge. I appreciate the interpretations you have offered.

sgsmitty, what gave you the impression that I found Christianity disturbing? Just because I haven't accepted it doesn't mean I discount others' acceptance of it. I don't find my way or the Christian way superior or inferior. I just feel I am currently on a different path. I feel everyone has a right to their own beliefs. Like I said, maybe other people have experienced something I haven't. I can't disprove anything that anyone believes and that can't prove anything to me.
Reply #77 from JoeUser Forums Top

A clarification, you are completely wrong here. Judaism has satan in the Torah. Starting in Genesis. Getting into heaven in OT times was based upon first, being a Jew, second following the commandments.

Now that's very interesting because there is a Jew here at the office and I asked him specifically on this. Are you Jewish or are you assuming that Judaism is merely OT?

This is interesting. I am curious as to what basis in fact is there that you would believe God exists but not biblical stories? Was "critical thinking" involved?

It is a lot easier to make the leap of faith into believing in a supreme being who created the universe than to believe specific assertions in a book that defy physics and science as we know it.

I am not meaning to pick on one person especially one that appears to not have a lot of knowledge concerning biblical issues

I'm pretty comfortable with my knowledge of the bible. I do, however, find it pretty telling that you can somehow, almost by magic, tell that I don't have knowledge on biblical issues from what little I wrote about the bible. I can only assume that those who don't believe in the bible must therefore, in your mind, lack knowldge in it.

I tend to think that this whole conversation could be summed up as follows:

JillUser: I don't understand why a good person could go to hell. Can someone explain this to me?

Responder: Because the bible says so.

JillUser: Yes, but WHY?

Responder: Because you have to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior to receive the gift of salvation.

JillUser: But why?

Responder: Because the bible says so.

So ultimately if you have read the bible and you don't find it credible on its own, then you have to find your own answers.  That is the conclusion I came to. I don't find the bible to be credible for concluding whether there is a heaven or hell and even if there is whether I would go to heaven or hell.  I don't find it remotely intuitive that one would interpret the torturing and murdering of Jesus to be an act of love on his part to remove the problem of original sin or whatever. I just don't find that credible.

Good for those who believe though. I think Jill wrote elsewhere that she wishes she could have faith like that.  I know I don't. I don't have a problem with people of faith at all. I think faith is a great thing.  I don't have a problem with it until people get uppity about it. When they start trying to claim that the bible is somehow scientifically proven or start trying to argue that creationism or "intelligent design" are somehow viable theories. 

The bible is what the bible is. Ultimately each person has to decide whether they have faith in what it says and then how much faith (i.e. all of it literal truth or whether it's more symbolic).  I think the bible contains a lot of good lessons and the world woudl be better if people would observe those lessons (well at least the NT ones). For myself, I try to live an honest, moralistic life the best I can. I do so because I think we all have an obligation to try to leave the world a bit better than we found it. My belief isn't based on the bible or any other religious document though other than indirect influence through our culture.

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Reply #78 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Now that's very interesting because there is a Jew here at the office and I asked him specifically on this. Are you Jewish or are you assuming that Judaism is merely OT?"

I've had several Jews tell me as well that Satan/the devil is not mentioned in their Scriptures...and so far, I have found no mention of him as I've read through it. Most people do NOT realize that the Christian OT is not the same as the Jewish Tanakh, and just presume that what is in the OT is Jewish.

Reply #79 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was being defensive because you were being offensive.

You said I had lack of thought, I said you had lack of thought, but of course, I was wrong in saying that.

I do hope you find your way though, whatever it may be. I've always suggested everyone read the
bible at least once. That's a good way to start, whether you want someone to quote it or not, if the
topic of discussion is the bible, or Jesus, I think it is agreed you should have knowledge of that
topic. However, I used to say that even when I never read the bible, so that's why I've started reading it.

I just want everyone here to know that I'm not a preacher who's been at it for years.

Matter of fact 7 months ago I smoked more marijuana than anyone here has probably seen,
lived in my own world, and as a result owe about 10 thousand dollars on a Ford Ranger,
ruined my credit, got my 'ex girlfriend at the time' pregnant, lost my house that she and I had
together, lost my job, and had to live with crackheads who were strangley enough my friends.

You know what? During all that, I hadn't read the bible, but I still talked about God to my friends
Even though they were crack heads and druggies, they listened more intently and with an open
mind and heart than most people here have.

I also had a bad childhood, the very religion I have turned to used to be the one
my mother belonged to, only she used to beat me, and throw plates at me. She also took
me to churches that "place hands on people" and "knock them out under the holy spirit."

Scary crap to a 12 year old when your mom slaps you around and you're surrounded by
people on the floor in convulsions, seemingly for 'the better.' So I was never 'fed' anything
or brainwashed, if anything I was brainwashed to hate God.

I still don't believe in that sort of stuff though, I'm just reading the bible and developing
my own beliefs, listening with an open mind.

I do apologize for being abrupt with you, but sometimes people need to be shown how
they're acting by acting the same way with them.

But if you don't want me here...I leave with one more thing from the bible...

*shrugs shoulders* *kicks dirt off shoes*
Reply #80 from JoeUser Forums Top
"I'm sorry guys but I find this all pretty..well funny.

Oh good god, don't tell me you're one of those people who actually believe in Noah's arc and the flood? What's next, you going to explain how evolution violates the law of thermal dynamics and how "scientists" have "proven" the missing day? Jesus.

"Jesus died for our sins" is one example. To some of us, that statement sounds like the result of brain washing.
]

I'm pretty comfortable with my knowledge of the bible. I do, however, find it pretty telling that you can somehow, almost by magic, tell that I don't have knowledge on biblical issues from what little I wrote about the bible. I can only assume that those who don't believe in the bible must therefore, in your mind, lack knowldge in it."

Brad, you don't belong here. This is a debate involving people who are looking for answersl, or at least looking for why people think they have answers. You are simply trolling. You statements are largely atheistic rhetoric that does little more than regurgitate what you've been hearing from your atheistic friends all your life. If you have some original thought, post it, but I've heard all your nonsense before and it's not even worth disproving anymore.

To avoid being hypocritical, let's try that little "you don't really believe..." bit. There's a lot more support for creationism than evolution, which is full of missing links and "little" problems like irreducible complexity. Stick to politics. You know nothing of religion except memorized words and phrases that other people have thought of.

~Dan
Reply #81 from JoeUser Forums Top
Draginol:Now that's very interesting because there is a Jew here at the office and I asked him specifically on this. Are you Jewish or are you assuming that Judaism is merely OT?
Poetmon99: I've had several Jews tell me as well that Satan/the devil is not mentioned in their Scriptures...and so far, I have found no mention of him as I've read through it. Most people do NOT realize that the Christian OT is not the same as the Jewish Tanakh, and just presume that what is in the OT is Jewish.
You both should check your sources. Satan/devil is in the Jewish Torah, written version being called Tanakh, all throughout. This starts with Genesis 3:1 (Bereshit - if you so desire) (see: http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Genesis3.htm#1)
Satan plays a important part (and is referred to as Satan in the the book of Job (or Eyov for the Jews out there). Satan is specifically named many times starting in chapter 1 verse 6. Starting here God directs Satan's attention to Job.
http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Job1.htm#6
I could go on but I hope you see the error in your statements concerning Satan/devil not being in Jewish scripture.

Am I Jewish? No. But since my wife attends a seminary and I have many friends who are professors there. As a result of that I have had the opportunity to sit in discussions or debates with our Jewish scholar friends.

I'm pretty comfortable with my knowledge of the bible. I do, however, find it pretty telling that you can somehow, almost by magic, tell that I don't have knowledge on biblical issues
Maybe I made a brash assumption on my part. My response was based upon your lack of knowledge concerning something as basic as satan being in the Jewish torah or OT. I apologize. And I would never assume that lack of faith or believe in the bible equates to lack of knowledge. I have meet atheists who knew far more about not only what the bible said, but its' history, authors and context than I.
As for the rest of Draginol's response I can respect his opinions and would not attempt to convince him otherwise that which he has already decided about. There are valid answer's to JillUser's questions, I question the usefulness of using the internet to convey those answers. Since her issues and questions are not unique and are well trodden roads there are several good books that he could read if she really wanted to look for answers.

Poetmom99: Your comment about the Jewish torah not being the same as the Christian OT is completely unfounded. I encourage you to sit down and compare the jewish texts (a website is listed above) to that of a Christian OT. There will be differences in language, names etc. But the reason for that is another subject. You will find they match very well. As for the website used, it was a google search but it matches the torah text we have here at the house.
Reply #82 from JoeUser Forums Top
Rats! I used the (quote) (/quote) tags, not sure what happened. Sorry.
Reply #83 from JoeUser Forums Top
Two very interesting facts:

Christianity is the only faith with a founder who conqured death. (Leaning on historical evidence, not just scriptural.)

Christianity is the only faith with a founder who claimed to be sinless. Even Pilate said he could find no fault with him. No one could.

Buddah died searching. Guru says he's no better off than we are with sin. Dali Lama will admit he's imperfect. Confucious struggled with the burden of his imperfections. Mohammad said he needed to be forgiven. Just some interesting facts...
Reply #84 from JoeUser Forums Top
(quote)Noone answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?(/quote)


Oh yeah, btw, Jesus was institutuing an ordinance. He was using it as an example: do this to be identified with me. It was a prophecy of his death, burial, and ressurection, just like we use it today to identify a believer with the death, burial and resurrection. John the Baptist was using it for the same purpose. Why would people do it in His name if He had not offically approved of it? And it was a beginning to His ministry, an announcement of who He is. Hope it helps.

Jill -- I hope you'll investigate a guy named Lee Strobel. He wrote some great books that defend Christianity without using the Bible -- as skill many people here need to learn, eh. He was a skeptic and wanted answers so he investigated. Found truth as he did. I recommend www.half.com.
Reply #85 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't know how much time you have to read JillUser, but my suggestion would be to read the "Left Behind" series. Even for people who don't believe in God, it's still an interesting story.

If you can, read that series and get back to us... i'd be curious to hear what you think of the story when you're done...
Reply #86 from JoeUser Forums Top
"You both should check your sources. Satan/devil is in the Jewish Torah, written version being called Tanakh, all throughout. This starts with Genesis 3:1 (Bereshit - if you so desire) (see: http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Genesis3.htm#1)"

Check my sources? I have a copy of the Tanakh right here in front of me....there is no mention of any being called Satan/the devil in it.......the verse you mention describes the serpent, and does not call it Satan or the devil....

"Satan plays a important part (and is referred to as Satan in the the book of Job (or Eyov for the Jews out there). Satan is specifically named many times starting in chapter 1 verse 6. Starting here God directs Satan's attention to Job. "

No...again, no direct mention of Satan or the devil....refers to The Adversary....

"Poetmom99: Your comment about the Jewish torah not being the same as the Christian OT is completely unfounded. I encourage you to sit down and compare the jewish texts (a website is listed above) to that of a Christian OT. There will be differences in language, names etc. But the reason for that is another subject. You will find they match very well. As for the website used, it was a google search but it matches the torah text we have here at the house."

Unfounded? Hardly. Every Jew I know says the exact same thing...and, as I said, I have a copy of the Tanakh right here on my computer desk this very moment. And the words do NOT match....there are things added to the Christian OT not found in the Tanakh, in order to make some passages into Messianic prophecies for Christians, which the Jews do not count among their Messianic prophecies (which is why they say Jesus did NOT fulfill the Messianic prophecies...their list of those is different than ours). So, I am sorry, but I'll take the word of at least 6 Jews I've spoken to about this in person to someone typing on the internet with no real credentials on the subject.
Reply #87 from JoeUser Forums Top
"I don't know how much time you have to read JillUser, but my suggestion would be to read the "Left Behind" series. Even for people who don't believe in God, it's still an interesting story. If you can, read that series and get back to us... i'd be curious to hear what you think of the story when you're done..."

I just finished "The Glorious Appearing"....and all I can say is WOW....I can't wait!! :) My daughters (14 and 11) are also reading the series, and it's opened up several interesting discussions at our house.
Reply #88 from JoeUser Forums Top

I asked another Jewish friend about Satan and Judaism.  No Satan in Judaism. Perhaps SgtSmitty wishes to retract his comments.

BTW, SgtSmitty, you do realize that you wrongly jumped on me and questioned my "Basic" knowledge when your own knowledge on that very issue comes from asking someone else just as I asked someone else. So it just comes down to whose source is better on Judaism, not whose knowledge is better.

Reply #89 from JoeUser Forums Top
Buddah died searching


No, he didn't. The Buddha was fully enlightened when he died....hence his being called 'the Buddha', meaning 'enlightened one'.

Dali Lama will admit he's imperfect.


Well, yes, because he's human. We're all human, all imperfect. He's not the Buddha, and he makes no claims to be. He does consider himself a bodhisattva (a being on the path to enlightenment), but I know more than a few bodhisattvas.
Reply #90 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks Dharma, I am an aspiring bodhisattvas I guess ;)

Dan, I don't need you on my blog telling people whether or not they belong here. I think you are the one who doesn't belong here since that is called trolling. Like I have told others, say something constructive or don't comment.

I will look into the books you guys have mentioned. I appreciate the info. Thanks!
Reply #91 from JoeUser Forums Top
I asked another Jewish friend about Satan and Judaism. No Satan in Judaism. Perhaps SgtSmitty wishes to retract his comments.

No, Of course not. Maybe your Jewish friend needs to read his book a little more. Ask him about Job, the serpent in genesis, stories in ezekiel, etc. Now, to further explain why your Jewish friends say that there is no Satan in Judaism. Jews do not have Satan as a powerful being that rules in Hell, to them they view Satan as a adversary, a angel that acts as a prosecutor. The concept that Satan is a "fallen" angel is not a teaching of theirs in spite of passages in Ezekiel (which they interpret differently). The issue of Satan is a debated one within the various Jewish sects. Most of there concern is over the idea that Satan supposedly has power over God or man (which he does not). However, all of them acknowledge that a adversary exists and is made to exist by God from time to time. Many Jews wrongly assume that Christian (and Islam) give Satan power that matches God or overpowers God which is not the case. They also argue that if there was a opposing force then God would/could simply wipe it out. While it is true that God could wipe evil out (since he does control everything) it is equally true that he could have made us to obey and not desire to be apart from God. Whether you want to call it Satan, or a adversary angel makes no difference, the fact remains that something exists that throws up evil and tempts. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

BTW, SgtSmitty, you do realize that you wrongly jumped on me and questioned my "Basic" knowledge when your own knowledge on that very issue comes from asking someone else just as I asked someone else. So it just comes down to whose source is better on Judaism, not whose knowledge is better.

Well, my knowledge also comes from reading the Torah as well as Jewish friends I have met but that is beside the point. Again, my assumption is that you would have seen Satan mentioned and discussed in the OT Bible and would not have stated otherwise without providing some explanation as to why those instances were not Satan or the devil. If you are claiming to be a authority on Biblical issues then I stand corrected, I only have what you have written on the subject.

Check my sources? I have a copy of the Tanakh right here in front of me....there is no mention of any being called Satan/the devil in it.......the verse you mention describes the serpent, and does not call it Satan or the devil....

No...again, no direct mention of Satan or the devil....refers to The Adversary....

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck..... Either way, it is a force that is tempting and brings evil.

Unfounded? Hardly. Every Jew I know says the exact same thing...and, as I said, I have a copy of the Tanakh right here on my computer desk this very moment. And the words do NOT match....there are things added to the Christian OT not found in the Tanakh, in order to make some passages into Messianic prophecies for Christians, which the Jews do not count among their Messianic prophecies (which is why they say Jesus did NOT fulfill the Messianic prophecies...their list of those is different than ours).

Some quotes would have been nice, but oh well. I am sure they will come now. However, is it a word for word, verse for verse? I will give you that, it is not.
A good example is in Isaiah 9:
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore.

In the Tanakh this is found in Isaiah 9, however it starts in verse 5:
5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever.
Words are different, verses are different. So I would agree that there are differences. Is the message the same? I most cases yes. but not all. As for the list if Messianic verses, that can be a whole other topic but I agree that the list is different, but it does overlap significantly. Christians usually leave out those that have not been fullfilled in some way.

So, I am sorry, but I'll take the word of at least 6 Jews I've spoken to about this in person to someone typing on the internet with no real credentials on the subject.

Funny, but you, Brad, Jill, Me, etc. are all some guy on the internet with no proven credentials. Does anyone really take what they find on the internet as the truth? And the fact that you have 6 Jewish friends is greatly dependent upon their knowledge as Brad has pointed out.
Reply #92 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, Jill, I DO consider you to be a bodhisattva..along with Brad, NickyG, Mack, MadPoet, PoetMom, Janders...and quite a few others. I had thought Dan was a bodhisattva but the events and revelations of the past few days have caused me to reconsider.

Sorry if this response is 'trolling'...!
Reply #93 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Yes, Jill, I DO consider you to be a bodhisattva..along with Brad, NickyG, Mack, MadPoet, PoetMom, Janders...and quite a few others."

Thank you for including me in that group...that is basically what I strive for....I have my beliefs, but I'm willing to listen to others, to explore other paths, to leave myself open to change....
Reply #94 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dharma, that wasn't trolling. You responded to something I, the blogger at hand, said that followed my conversation. Dan dropped in to give his arrogant 2 cents on who belonged on my blog. I think it is a wonderful thing when people can disagree with but not discount others' beliefs. I appreciate empathy. Some people just don't have a knack for empathy. It is either their way or wrong. I think Poetmom said exactly what I wanted to hear, i.e. have your beliefs but be open to others. You don't have to give up anything when it comes to your own faith to listen to another. Try to put yourself in the other's shoes.

I try to be empathetic. I realize everyone has had different experiences and different influences in their lives. I hope to learn from others experiences both good and bad. A lot of people have expressed the concern that you can't lead a good life without guidelines set forth by God. I think I know those rules by what I am told through heart and mind combined. I guess that is how I feel I communicate with God. I am lead to treat others well, to love and not hurt, to care for my family and friends, and to learn and use that knowledge to the best of my ability for as long as I can.
Reply #95 from JoeUser Forums Top
Poetmom and sgsmitty, I think your dispute just goes to show that we all need to do our own homework and not rely on the interpretations of others. See how differently a couple of people and their Jewish friends interpreted the Torah. Why shouldn't I feel a little sceptical about the Bible? We are talking a couple thousand years of interpretation by who knows how many people.
Reply #96 from JoeUser Forums Top
Poetmom and sgsmitty, I think your dispute just goes to show that we all need to do our own homework and not rely on the interpretations of others. See how differently a couple of people and their Jewish friends interpreted the Torah. Why shouldn't I feel a little sceptical about the Bible? We are talking a couple thousand years of interpretation by who knows how many people.

Ah, true. That is part of the spice of life I guess, our interpretations, opinions, etc. that we all have on many topics. I can certainly understand why to some the safest bet is to not choose although you still have made a choice. It would be nice if everyone could respect and accept differing opinions, but some of those opinions whether it be "you are going to hell for not accepting Jesus" or "believing in the flood", etc either contradict other's opinions or are unacceptable and ridiculed. I try not to "attack" those who think different on this issue, usually I am responding to someone else's criticism or attacks. But I am not perfect in that regard either.

See ya
Reply #97 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm not a Bodhisattva. As a Christian, I profess to have already found enlightenment. My temporary stay on earth is not a journey toward heaven but toward perfection.

But I think I know what you mean in the other sense, as well.

~Dan
Reply #98 from JoeUser Forums Top

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Reply By: KarmaGirl Posted: Friday, April 16, 2004

You said:
To much stuff to address

I say:
Read the bible.
You mention "Buddhism with a transcendentalist twist" seemingly to sound smart
but everything you said seemed to have no merit at all. I saw no basis to your
post. I'm sorry but I just didn't follow it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't follow because you are trying to say that the bible *is* the basis of religion, and that *Christianity* is the only religion.  I didn't say "Buddhism with a transcendentalist twist" to sound "smart" I said it because I don't believe in Christianity. 

It's debatable is Buddhism is even a religion.  It more of an enlightenment than a religion.  A way of life more than a way to act until you die.  There isn't "heaven in hell" in Buddhism.  The "transcendentalist twist" comes from my belief that everything happens for a reason (a basic transcendentalist belief) and that once you die, your energy returns to an "oversoul" since energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

I have read the bible (as I already said) and it's just a bunch of stories.  Sorry, can't base my life on stories.  If you can't understand it, you should read it again and try.  it's simple:
There is no afterlife.  When you die there is nothing.  You never knew you existed.  Does that sound scary to you?  If so, clutch your bible tighter so it doesn't scare you anymore.  Religion gives us an easy way to deal with death.  Nobody wants to believe that it is simple "over" when you die.  Does that mean that there is no "Creator"?  I have no idea.

But, you won't understand what I am saying because it is not Christian.  It is not based on the bible because the bible is just a book.  Does that make me a "bad" person?  In the eyes of a Christian it does.  A Buddhist opinion would differ.

If you can't find "merit" in what I say, then you should read more about other religions.  Christianity may be *your* religion, but it is not *everyone's* religion.  No matter what you quote from the bible, you won't change my view.

Reply #99 from JoeUser Forums Top

Oh, I just noticed Dharma's "bodhisattva" comment.  I haven't seen that term mentioned in conversation in quite some time.

Funny thing with Buddhism, is that you can figure out how to deal with "pain" through enlightenment.  I spend a lot of time at Dr.'s appointments and around people in pain.  I see a lot of people who pray, or talk to others about "God" getting rid of their pain.  But they still have pain.  Now, I have a very high tolerance for pain.  I have had arthritis since I was 13, but I have "enlightened" myself on how to ignore it (hence the high tolerance).  (Learning to release the feeling of pain is similar to meditating by thinking about nothing).  It's hard to explain.  Buddhism teaches about life on Earth, where Christianity focuses on what happens after death (lead a life like this so that you go to heaven).  Learning about Buddhism also strengthened my belief that the "heaven" that is talked about is already on Earth- you just have to find it (enlighten yourself to find Nirvana in your every day life).

Reply #100 from JoeUser Forums Top
Jilluser...........the last person to be able to judge ourselves objectively is ourselves. if we are evil, we cant see it.