"I just find it almost arrogant for people to say if you don't do _______ God will send you to Hell. Why does it have to be so black and white? If God loves you, couldn't he take the life experiences he gave you into consideration when deciding your eternal fate?"

If there's anything I dislike, it's a dogmatic Christian, but listen guys, this is straight from the heart:

I honestly believe in what I'm saying. I know for a fact (although unfortunately ones that wouldn't hold much water syllogistically) that God and Jesus exists, and there are certain things I know about both of them, because we spend time together, and one of the things that happens when you spend time with someone is that you get to know them. I can't prove that God or Jesus exists, anymore than I could prove to you that any other friend of mine exists. But I notice you don't question the existance of any other friends- perhpas because the truth is not quite so relevant in those instances.

Karmagirl, you're smart and creative, but you sounds jaded and dogmatic in your own way. You remind me of an old, Christian lady who's having difficulty coping with a world whose ideas about religion are changing. Don't stick to your guns, but down the guns and pick up a book. Maybe we can learn something. And before anybody accuses me of hypocrisy, no, I'm not being dogmatic. When you know something by personal experience, it takes an acknowledgement of insanity to disprove it.

JillUser- I respect you a ton and I don't understand why you can't grasp the issue. For a Christian, Hell is eternal torture. So for you or anybody else to say things like "God will judge me for my merits" (although all of them are worth nothing according to any widely accepted scripture- i.e. torah, bibe, qua'ran) or "I'll be happy to go to Hell" or even "this life is already Hell" is just plain offensive. It's like you're laughing as you think of Christians watching you as you pull a lever that would lead you to a horrible death. What if Christians are wrong? Does that make it right to make fun of them? It's not like being Christian's implies inferiority.

I guess what I'm saying is... please, have a little respect.

~Dan

Aww psyfect, no reply to my heretic comments? I feel sooo unloved. (And I read it all)
I say whatever you need in your life, go for it.
Some people need RIGIDTY in religion to keep them TRUE to themselves and others. We have Holy Fanatics who obey down to the last puncuation, we have arm-chair worshipers who can't even remember the last time they had been to church..and everything in between. Who's more right?


Even bigger question: Who here practices what they preach? Don't type it and tell me, humans are great at being decietful to ourselves and others..but ask yourself, do you live whatever it is you worship? To HELL (figuratively speaking) to anyone who thinks they know more..including myself.

"To HELL (figuratively speaking) to anyone who thinks they know more..including myself. "

Does that mean "if I don't know then nobody does?"

~Dan

Amen Jilluser. I have raised four children that way also and they are pretty nice people if I may say so myself. I'm at peace with myself to know that they will be judged on their merits.

No no Dan, quite the opposite. Nobody can know how Jill should feel upon her religion and what she finds to be fullfilling, faith wise, except for herself. And when I say that, I mean nobody else. Including me! As in, my rantings are just that, rantings..like everybody elses. We can make suggestions, but it's beneath us to Tell someone else What and How they should worship, right? I hope I'm not alone in that. heh

"We can make suggestions, but it's beneath us to Tell someone else What and How they should worship, right? "

It's beneath us? What does that mean?

~Dan

Dan, in response to your reply #51, I refute fervantly that I was disrespectful to anyone. I was talking about my own beliefs. You quoted out of context. I said that I tend to believe God will judge me on my merits. I even said that I have respect for anyone who lives by their own religious convictions. I know christians think that their way is the only way. That is fine for you. You can all quote the bible or any other written text you want. It won't make a bit of difference in whether or not I am enlightened to Jesus being the son of God.

I think it is silly to not believe Jesus existed. There is plenty of evidence that he did. However, you are arrogant if you think you can prove to anyone that he is the son of God. You are also arrogant if you think you can prove to anyone that he isn't the son of God. This subject is all about faith. The bible doesn't prove anything to anyone who doesn't first accept that it is the word of God. It is nothing more than an old book of stories that reflect the time otherwise.

One of the reasons I just don't think that accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour is the only thing God will accept is this scenario:

If someone has never been introduced to the bible, has never even heard the name Jesus, they would go to hell. They believe that they had a creator. They are appreciative of the life they were given and pray in their own way to "God". Why would this person be sent to eternal torture in the afterlife?

I'll go another step, you can talk about sacrifice for our sins all you want, it still doesn't make any sense to me why God would have to send his son to Earth and be brutally tortured to death. Why? What did it prove? He died for our sins..........what does that really mean? If the bible is God's word for us to live by, why couldn't he just explain what he wanted us to do? Why would he have to prove anything to us?

Noone answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?

quote]"No one answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?"


The most logical statement I've read on the subject states that Jesus’ submission to John’s baptism of repentance was His mature self-dedication to His mission of self-identification with sinners which in due course would involve the cross. In other words, a visible sign that He was ready and willing to start down the path that would bring the plan of God to its fruition with His death and resurrection.

"I'll go another step, you can talk about sacrifice for our sins all you want, it still doesn't make any sense to me why God would have to send his son to Earth and be brutally tortured to death."

That's the price for the redemption of billions of people, Jill. If he lived an easy life and died by lethal injection, the sacrifice would have been meaningless. The torture and brutal death- as well as the complete and utter rejection during life- is to show the extent of God's love for us in the way that humans understand best: suffering.

"quote]If the bible is God's word for us to live by, why couldn't he just explain what he wanted us to do?"

He did... I'm not sure why you think it (the bible) doesn't.



"Noone answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?"

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Jesus came not only to die but to set an example for a righteous life. Although He had no need for cleansing, every Christian does. In order to set the perfect example, He had to go through the steps that every Christian has to follow.

~Dan

Sorry guys, like I said, still doesn't ring true to me. Not buying that our omnipotent God had to prove anything to us.

I'm sorry guys but I find this all pretty..well funny. I know it's a serious issue but when people start quoting the bible to PROVE the writings of the bible are true it makes me start thinking of The Silmarillion by Tolkien.  I know that book inside and out and it is its own mythology on how the world was created, the various gods, and adventures of people. In short, it is a lot like the bible.

Now, imagine how incredulous you would be if I said "Ah, but did Eru not bequeath the power of light to the Valar and did not Morgoth, by his deeds, help destroy the two trees and mar Arda forever?"

Now, imagine how incredulous you would be if I said "Ah, but did Eru not bequeath the power of light to the Valar and did not Morgoth, by his deeds, help destroy the two trees and mar Arda forever?"


Haha, that sounds like a very fun and appropriate way to respond.

If someone has never been introduced to the bible, has never even heard the name Jesus, they would go to hell.

It says in the bible that everyone has a chance to know Jesus
Whether the chance is them driving by a church and thinking nothing of it, based on their own reasons
Or somebody doing what Dan and I are doing, telling you about him.
It's your choice if you want to be intriuged and listen with an open heart, or shut it out, falling victim to your own beliefs

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it still doesn't make any sense to me why God would have to send his son to Earth and be brutally tortured to death. Why? What did it prove? He died for our sins..........what does that really mean?

He didn't HAVE to PROVE anything. Once again, John 3:16 "God so LOVED the earth"
Jesus IS a part of God. In esscence God came down to SHOW us that living a good life was possible, even in the face
of persecution by sending himself (son) to endure pain and suffering.

God didn't send Jesus to be killed, he sent him to save us, WE killed Jesus, just because God knew he would
die doesn't mean he sent him to die, you're missing the big picture if you think that. Besides, he didn't die forever,
he died on earth and now he is worshiped eternally. God sent him to rule! Sure he could just instantly forgive us,
but we don't deserve it if we didn't earn it.

Jesus was the only way we could be forgivin of our sins and still DESERVE a kingdom life.
Our lives on this earth are words, blood, and water. The only way to save all three is to give up all three.
This way we still have to make the choice between good and evil, but if we fall at first, thanks to Jesus, we can be forgiven.

What better God than one who lived and DIED as his own people?!
This proves that God is all loving, that he suffered the same fate as his beloved friends.

Jesus dying on the cross was what needed to be done for so many reason, so many that even we can't
think of all the reasons it HAD to be done.

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Noone answered what baptism meant to Jesus. John baptized Jesus. Was it just a traditional Jewish cleansing ritual that became linked as a symbol of letting Jesus wash our sins away?

I believe it was Jesus showing that he followed all the rules that were set before his time and lived just as we lived
until he was ready to change them, to prove that even then it could be done. Plus what happend after he was cleansed
was testament to the fact that he was Gods son and already clean.

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Now, imagine how incredulous you would be if I said "Ah, but did Eru not bequeath the power of light to the Valar and did not Morgoth, by his deeds, help destroy the two trees and mar Arda forever?"

The text in the bible, granted not all, has been proven with historical findings and many other things which prove the bibles
accuracy and truth. Basically anything in the bible that is fact (i.e. The Ark of Noah which was found) and not faith (i.e. Jesus is the son of God) has been proven.

So in particular Jesus's teachings, for instance the one I quoted of the rich official, are true. However, even if you wish to NOT believe, then you don't even condone the ethics behind the teaching, even if you say "Jesus wasn't this, or wasn't that, so you can't just quote, quote, quote." But if I quote something that promotes good morals and you resort to that, then you condone the exact opposite
of what was taught, i.e. love.

That stuff you said about Eru is bable and NONE of it can be proven.

The text in the bible, granted not all, has been proven with historical findings and many other things which prove the bibles accuracy and truth. Basically anything in the bible that is fact (i.e. The Ark of Noah which was found) and not faith (i.e. Jesus is the son of God) has been proven.

Oh good god, don't tell me you're one of those people who actually believe in Noah's arc and the flood? What's next, you going to explain how evolution violates the law of thermal dynamics and how "scientists" have "proven" the missing day? Jesus.

Jill-
I think you will go to Heaven. I am Catholic, which is why I am often bothered when people generalize by saying that all Christians believe certain things, but I completely understand your position. As I stated in another post, I am a pluralist. I don't believe that only the Catholics/Christians go to Heaven, and it really bothers me when people say this.

I think that Jesus died to save everyone and that God loves all of us. We have to eventually realize that its unrealistic to expect every person in the world to be Christian. Children tend to accept the same religion as their parents. People always think that their religion is the right religion and the only religion. Many religions worship the same God we do. The important part about religion is not following all of the customs, celebrating the holidays, and going to church every Sunday. Remember that Jesus didn't want us to be hypocritical in our religion. It is most important to be a good person. Otherwise, none of the traditions that go along with religion actually matter.

I don't think God has a checklist for going to Heaven, where he examines each person to see if they meet certain criteria. God looks at our lives individually to judge us. Good people are rewarded. Bad people are punished.

Jill, you seem to me like a very good person. I certainly hope you go to Heaven.

~Molly

PS I completely understand why you hate when people throw Bible verses at you. My atheist friends do the same with verses they think are morally wrong or whatever. Its incredibly annoying. I don't believe the Old Testament word for word. But thats off topic...

Oh good god, don't tell me you're one of those people who actually believe in Noah's arc and the flood? What's next, you going to explain how evolution violates the law of thermal dynamics and how "scientists" have "proven" the missing day? Jesus.

I may be wrong about the ark, I thought I saw a discovery channel special on them finding pieces,
but someone at my work mentioned that 90% of the bible has been proven, so I took his word.
Perhaps I should research it myself, but for someone who already believes that's wasted time.

I say all these things, so much makes sense, and you nitpick at me mentioning the arc?
Does your choice of words make you feel good about yourself, remove God and Jesus's
name and your sentence doesn't seem so powerfull does it?

"Don't tell me you're one of those people who don't believe in the bible are you?
I suppose next you'll tell me that there's no such thing as heaven or hell? We just die
and that's it?"

You proved where you stand using the Lords name in vain.

Oh good god, don't tell me you're one of those people who actually believe in Noah's arc and the flood? What's next, you going to explain how evolution violates the law of thermal dynamics and how "scientists" have "proven" the missing day? Jesus.

What the hizzy, why can't I quote?

psyfect - regarding quoting. You should be able to just type "(quote)" and "(/quote)" but with [ brackets instead of ('s.

Psyfect: My position comes from years of annoyance with bible thumpers who mindlessly quote the bible without any sort of critical thinking.  Saying things like "90%" of the bible has been "proven" is absurd.  Virtually none of the bible is proven. That doesn't make what is in the bible false, it makes what it is in their a matter of faith.

For years I've heard ignorant yet smug "Christians" running mumbling things like "the flood layer" or how "scientists" have proven <idiotic assertion X>.

JillUser's post was fairly easy to understand I think. She doesn't understand some of the basic tenets of Christianity.  And what does she get in response? A bunch of mindless regurgitation of bible passages.

How about this radical idea? Put together a persuasive response that does't rely on bible verses but uses more common sense.  JillUser has made it pretty clear that she doesn't accept that the bible is necessarily the word of God. I don't either. I see it as a collection of stories that have been translated and retranslated umteem times whose adherents seem to mindlessly buy into whatever they've been told.

"Jesus died for our sins" is one example. To some of us, that statement sounds like the result of brain washing. There is nothing intuitive in that. It requires someone else to twist a lot of things to turn a man being brutally tortured and killed to somehow having cleansed our sins.  But you buy into it without thinking because some guy, decades after that fact I might add, wrote his take on it that managed to twist those events into somehow meaning "Jesus died for our sins".

In Christianity, you have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior. He offers the gift of salvation. You can accept him or not. Right? But that's not the real issue. The real issue is a few steps before that. First you have to get someone to accept that the bible's words are actually gospel (no pun intended).

In Judaism, which is where half the bible was lifted from (old testiment) they don't have a devil. And they believe that your behavior over the course of your life matters. There is no death bad conversions to save you.  So somehow, between the old and new testiment, the rules changed. Behavior no longer matterered. Only accepting Christ into your heart as your savior mattered.

You are right though, I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the bible. Why? Because it has given me no reason to do so any more so than I should believe in the literal interpretation of Star Trek. There are peple who run around quoting episodes of Star Trek and I find that as creepy as people running around quoting Matthew.

You obviously haven't given very much thought as to WHY you believe in the bible. I have. You believe in it because you've been brainwashed over the years.  You lamely say "Well I thought I saw on the Discovery channel where they found the Arc..."  That's it? Sheesh.

Real faith comes from having looked at the facts that you do know to be true and then making that leap into believing what is impossible to prove.  The bible doesn't do that. Noah's Arc, Genesis, a good chunk of the stories, have no basis in fact at all. Other parts, like Leviticus, are very contradictory to parts on the New Testiment.  You don't believe in the bible because of faith. You believe in the bible because you don't know any better.  It is people like you that make people like Jill question Christianity.  Not because you're bad or mean or wicked. But because you make it so clear that even you, who clearly has memorized the bible has very little understanding of it in the larger context.

To you, the bible seems to be some rule book you follow. But to Jill, or me, or others, it's just a book. One that on the surface doesn't make sense.

You're right though, I don't believe in hell or heaven as described by many Christians. And I certainly don't find the argument that believing in Jesus as being your lord and savior as being the path to heaven even remotely convincing.

BTW, I do believe in God. But my belief comes from doing a lot of hard thinking over many years at a wide range of non-related sources and coming to that conclusion. But I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the bible. And I don't believe that anyone would go to hell for their belief or lack of belief in Jesus as their savior because I find the Bible's account as to why he died (i.e. washing away our sins and such) to be so uncredible.

Okay people, I will try to get this through one more time, quoting the bible isn't helping me so please stop. All I see in your examples of quotes are your trying to find things that fit what you chose to believe. It doesn't work if you are using those things to chose what you believe (at least not for me).

In order to have the bible make sense, because it has changed so much over the years and has many contradictions, you have to already believe it is exactly what God is saying to you. I don't. I believe that a couple thousand years ago some guys thought God was talking to them. They wrote what they thought God would want us to learn. Then, over and over again, and continuing today, mankind translated and interpretted those stories and lessons. Believing the bible because you know it to be true in your heart is one thing, trying to say that any of it is proven fact is another.

Psyfect, I am happy for you that you feel you have the answers. Your replies to my questions don't tend to make sense to me. You appear to be regurgitating to me. You even gave witness to that ascertion with your ark scenario. You also showed lack of thought when I spoke of someone born into the world never being introduced to the Bible or Jesus. Someone could be living out in the wilderness or outback where there are no churches and their parents didn't speak about religion. Noone "drove them by a church".

"You also showed lack of thought when I spoke of someone born into the world never being introduced to the Bible or Jesus. Someone could be living out in the wilderness or outback where there are no churches and their parents didn't speak about religion"

My understanding of a person in that situation is that they are not held accountable for soemthing they have never heard....most natives have a form of religion which they practice, and I believe that is God working in their lives at the point where they are, and that as long as they accept those religious beliefs, they are standing in good stead with God. That's JMO, of course.

I'm sorry guys but I find this all pretty..well funny. I know it's a serious issue but when people start quoting the bible to PROVE the writings of the bible are true it makes me start thinking of The Silmarillion by Tolkien. I know that book inside and out and it is its own mythology on how the world was created, the various gods, and adventures of people. In short, it is a lot like the bible. Now, imagine how incredulous you would be if I said "Ah, but did Eru not bequeath the power of light to the Valar and did not Morgoth, by his deeds, help destroy the two trees and mar Arda forever?"

Ah, Tolkien, a good catholic and great writer. The Silmarillion was certainly for the hardcore fan.

In Judaism, which is where half the bible was lifted from (old testiment) they don't have a devil. And they believe that your behavior over the course of your life matters. There is no death bad conversions to save you. So somehow, between the old and new testiment, the rules changed. Behavior no longer matterered. Only accepting Christ into your heart as your savior mattered.

A clarification, you are completely wrong here. Judaism has satan in the Torah. Starting in Genesis. Getting into heaven in OT times was based upon first, being a Jew, second following the commandments.

Real faith comes from having looked at the facts that you do know to be true and then making that leap into believing what is impossible to prove. The bible doesn't do that. Noah's Arc, Genesis, a good chunk of the stories, have no basis in fact at all. Other parts, like Leviticus, are very contradictory to parts on the New Testiment.......BTW, I do believe in God. But my belief comes from doing a lot of hard thinking over many years....

This is interesting. I am curious as to what basis in fact is there that you would believe God exists but not biblical stories? Was "critical thinking" involved?
I am not meaning to pick on one person especially one that appears to not have a lot of knowledge concerning biblical issues. I for one am completely comfortable with the fact that there are those who discredit theology, the bible, etc. with no chance of ever believing any of it. Throwing bible verses around at those type of people only invites ridicule and ultimately makes the person quoting look foolish.

Poetmom, your comment is how I am looking at it. Thanks. It is nice to hear someone who is thinking it through and sharing their thoughts rather than giving black or white statements from the Bible.

sgsmitty, I believe in God because we know that at one point something came from nothing. At that point I have to admit to myself that there is something out there that I can't grasp and that is where God comes in for me. God created me and everything that I know about as well as everything I don't

The Bible has had too much political involvement for it to hold a lot of meaning for me. Men have been picking and choosing what should be included and how it should be worded for far too long. I just can't base my belief on that.

I am not discounting the idea that something might happen in my life to show me the existence of Jesus as my saviour. I am just saying that it hasn't happened for me and reading anything in any text isn't going to do it. Having people quote any text isn't going to do it. No church meeting out there is going to do it (I've tried many of them over my life thus far). I might not even know until I am ready to breathe my last breath. I am hoping it won't take that long.

I imagine I am frustrating the heck out of people who feel they have all the answers but just can't get through to me. Maybe it is a deficiency of mine or maybe I have thought of things you haven't. God only knows

JillUser - I understand. A man named Saul found the whole Christian concept disturbing as well, although he took it further by killing them. A book, verse, or story did not work for him either. May you find your answers somewhere.

As for frustrating others, maybe. Although they should remember it is not their job to make you accept or see the light. They should simply present the material. As Brad said earlier you have to accept the bible as truth before any quotes from it would have meaning. If they or someone has laid it all out and you still reject then that is your right and decision and is not something they should feel failure or frustration over. For some, it will always be that way even up to and after death.

Draginol

Actually, I haven't been brainwashed at all, matter of fact I haven't even touched the bible in years.

I picked it up myself due to questions, figured I should learn it before I say I don't like it.

I didn't quote the bible left and right, I mentioned two verses in the bible out of, say, 10 replies I gave.
The ONE and ONLY mistake I made was quoting a PERSON who mentioned they heard the bible has been proven.
Besides, can you prove to me it hasn't been proven, or are you just saying it hasn't? Do you have a link to a reputable source?

I 'thought' nothing. I did see a special on the discovery channel, but it may have been the 'search,' I can't remember.
To nitpick at something I said about something I saw, as opposed to the other statements I made shows how right I am.

Once again behavior DOES matter, you have to behave AND accept him.

And my quoting doesn't work, that's exactly what I did.

Jilluser

You're not making sense, I quoted the bible twice, I don't think I have all the answers, I'm just giving you my pov.
If you don't believe in the bible, then you don't believe a thing about Jesus, if you don't want us to quote the bible
don't ask things like "Jesus was baptised when he was 30, right?" There's your "lack of thought"

Everyone gets a chance. Supposing someone doesn't the people who had the opportunity
to explain get worse punishment. Like I didn't think someone would say "say you're 2 years old and you die"
blah blah. You're just looking for any exscuse you can grab to look away.

Once again you're all jumping on this 'arc boat'
Big deal, get over it, I said one wrong thing and I'm not even sure it's wrong, I'm just to lazy to go research it.

I gotta go to work, I'll have to read the rest later.

"Poetmom, your comment is how I am looking at it. Thanks. It is nice to hear someone who is thinking it through and sharing their thoughts rather than giving black or white statements from the Bible."

I'm in the midst of reading The Purpose Driven Life, as well as reading the lost Gospels, the Jewish Tanakh, and the Christian Bible....I guess you could say I'm on a learning quest of my own.