Nonchristian vs Antichristian

There's a big difference

from JoeUser Forums

I think everyone who doesn't consider themselves christian has gotten accused of being antichristian at one time or another.  I have gotten accused many times.  Ironically the accusers are people with some sort of martyr complex who assume that they will be persecuted for being christian.  They take issue with me in anticipation of my taking issue with them.

I am not denying that there are plenty of people on the planet who actually are antichristian.  I just find it odd when I or some of the kindest people I know have been labeled as such.  It isn't a 'you're either with me or against me' subject. 

I am also perplexed as to why so many christians can't fathom anyone believing in God without believing Jesus is his son.  I can understand why they can believe in Jesus not because it makes sense to me but because I am open minded and realize that other people have different experiences in life than what I have experienced in my own.  Those experiences help form how we see the world and how we fit in it.  If you see only your path, your way as being the only way, then you are not open minded.

religion
19,410 views 173 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Honestly, Jill, I think some Christians like to push other people around because of this:

Matthew 5: 10 - 12 (starting with the tail end of the Beatitudes)

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

If you will be rewarded for persecution, why not create situations wherein you can interpret others' negative reactions to you as persecution of you for your faith? And of course, there are some Christians who like to view themselves as martyrs...See? They did it to Jesus, now they're doing it to me! That kind of thing.

I don't think many or even most Christians in this country understand what persecution is or what someone being ANTIChristian looks like. I've taken more abuse for choosing not to believe than I ever did for believing.

Categorizing someone as anti-Christian helps the Christian see persecution where none is present...and thus add to their heavenly reward.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I have been called anti-christian as well, and I am Catholic.  So I do know how it is, kind of.  But I understand it less than you probably.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Categorizing someone as anti-Christian helps the Christian see persecution where none is present...and thus add to their heavenly reward.


Oh yeah, I can definitely see that.

Well, I have been called anti-christian as well, and I am Catholic


Catholics do get kicked around a lot don't they Dr. Guy. My best friend growing up was Catholic. Her house was my home away from home and I went to church with her on Sundays. There are a lot of things I don't like about catholocism. There are a lot of catholics that do there best to make you all look pretty bad. But I judge each person by their own merits not by any race, group or denomination. My best friends family practiced what they preached and I have nothing but respect for that.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dr. Guy and I have something in common. I have been called "anti christian" for being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Usually by fellow Christians.

You are right though, too many people think that disagreeing with their spiritual beliefs is a sign of antagonism towards them. I know for me, I can listen to anyone's spiritual beliefs with the understanding that they have just as much right to their beliefs and I have to mine... even if their beliefs are antagonistic to mine.

On the other hand, there are examples of Antichristian acts in our society. When a school refuses to sing Christmas carols at a Winter Choir performance, but has other religious songs in the show; When Christian students are told they can't have a Bible study group on school grounds during lunch, but Muslim kids are provided a room and excused from class for the daily prayers that occur during school time; When a Christian band is first invited to play at a Starbucks Coffee House in Wisconsin, but then told to leave because a customer complained about the Christian content of their music; then we can see that Anti Christian acts are acceptable in our society, even among those who "embrace diversity".

Of course, not every accusation of anti Christian acts actually are, in fact, my guess is, most aren't.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Just as a side thought I do love reminding Christians that Jesus is a Jew. heh.


mm WALKS away feeling vaguely satisfied.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the problem lies in the fact that when someone says anything about Jesus, it feels personal. So then it becomes personal.

When Christ is the center of your life, first in all the things you try to do, and someone says something you consider negative, its hard to not take it personally.

I went to an all black church in North Daokta. Saying Jesus was white, well them was fightin words!

Seriously though, I love Christ as much or more than my own kids....how do you handle it when someone says something unflattering about your kids? Something you believe with all your heart to be a lie? Kinda hard to sit back and say "Well you are entitled to your opinion."

Not saying it can't be done, but it takes more self control than I have most of the time.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Dr. Guy and I have something in common. I have been called "anti christian" for being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Usually by fellow Christians.


para,

In fairness to both sides, I must point out I have been labelled "anti-Christian by many members of the LDS church. In fact, I'm persona non grata within my own family for REJECTING the church's teachings, despite the fact that I defend them far more than is typical for ex-Mormons within the evangelical Christian community (****SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT**** see my latest blog entry for an example of this).

I know that you aren't among the number of people who do this, but this attitude is common enough within certain higher profile members of the LDS faith that it is reasonable to say that THIS knife cuts both ways.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
....how do you handle it when someone says something unflattering about your kids? Something you believe with all your heart to be a lie?


Ah, but the thing is Tova, just because I haven't accepted that Jesus is the son of God doesn't mean I am saying he is a lie. I have never denied your right to your faith or denied the fact that you might be right. That is why you don't need to get defensive. I am not giving you anything to defend. My belief or lack there of has nothing to do with you.

Kinda hard to sit back and say "Well you are entitled to your opinion."


Nonchristians do that all the time though. Even when being faced with being told I was going to go to hell I did exactly that. I said in return "well, you are entitled to your opinion."

You have your faith and I respect that. Just because I don't share the same faith doesn't mean I have anything against you. Why shouldn't I expect to be treated in the same regard? I realized that many christians see their actions as defending Christ or evangelizing. It often feels like harrassment to a nonchristian.

It is very similar to politics. I have nothing against Democrats because I'm Republican. I don't share a lot of their beliefs but that doesn't mean I have an attitude toward them simply because of their politics. But there are many on both sides, and we've all seen it, who claim that the people on the opposite side of the political spectrum only hold their beliefs because they are uneducated or have been brainwashed or fooled in some way. Those same attitudes apply when it comes to differing religious beliefs.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think that my Christian way is the only way to "heaven"...does that make me not open minded? I don't think so. I think every religion has that belief...lots of different sects of religions have that belief--lutherans think the catholics way is farked up. Baptists think the methodists are all going to hell. I think it's stupid, but...that's the way it is.

While I believe that my way is the only way, I don't have my head stuck in the sand. I know that lots of other people believe lots of different things from myself, and that's okay. I would love for everyone to be Christians, but I'm a realist and I know that's not a possibility.

I don't think many or even most Christians in this country understand what persecution is or what someone being ANTIChristian looks like. I've taken more abuse for choosing not to believe than I ever did for believing.


I think you're right. The Christian church in America has NOTHING to complain about. Take a look at all the Christians in other countries like China that aren't allowed to meet publicly...

We've got it so good...
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ah, but the thing is Tova, just because I haven't accepted that Jesus is the son of God doesn't mean I am saying he is a lie.


I understand your point. I never really thought about it like that. That's my bad for making assumptions. In my mind I always thought if you decide against something, then you are deciding For something else. So if you decide Jesus isn't God, then you are deciding NOT to believe him...and deciding not to believe someone is done because you think they are not truthful. But now I see you are saying you don't believe because you don't know...is that right? Because in my narrow vision I never really thought about that! DUH.

My belief or lack there of has nothing to do with you.


Again you are right.

You have your faith and I respect that. Just because I don't share the same faith doesn't mean I have anything against you.


I never take it as against "me." But against my God. That is my bad though Jill I get that. I don't want to offend people who don't believe as I do. I do believe God can defend Himself.

I don't mean to come across that way at all. And for the record I have never felt attacked by you....so if I ever came off that way I am sorry.

Look I love being a Christian....but I won't lie and say you can map out how Christians should live by looking at my life. I am not perfect. Not even close. And I certainly don't have all the answers. (And I am really glad I don't have them because I would get annoyed with having to splain them! )
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
If someone wants to believe in the virgin birth and resurrection, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, martians, ghosts, vampires, or any other myth, so be it... whatever gets you through the night. I become anti-whatever when someone thinks they are better than everyone else, simply because of his or her beliefs.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
But now I see you are saying you don't believe because you don't know...is that right? Because in my narrow vision I never really thought about that! DUH.


You're getting it. You have a relationship with Jesus that I have not experienced. No amount of reading the bible or hearing about other peoples' encounters is going to change that. It is between me and God.

I don't mean to come across that way at all. And for the record I have never felt attacked by you....so if I ever came off that way I am sorry.


Not at all. I am glad you shared because communication is the basis of learning. Thanks for considering my side. I don't expect to have my lack of christian faith accepted. I merely expect the right to form my own opinions without judgement or assumption that my belief means I have something against others' beliefs.

I am not perfect. Not even close. And I certainly don't have all the answers.


Noone's perfect and noone has the answeres. If they claim to be perfect, it is just a testament to how imperfect they are.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
I become anti-whatever when someone thinks they are better than everyone else, simply because of his or her beliefs.


That just makes you Anti-superiority complex, right? I'm on board with that.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

If someone wants to believe in the virgin birth and resurrection, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, martians, ghosts, vampires, or any other myth, so be it... whatever gets you through the night.

It's statements like THAT (equating the resurrection with Santa Claus) that explain why I have nothing to do with the DNC, ben. And it is ironic because, in a thread where tolerance was pretty much the rule, you had to show exactly what an anti-Christian IS. You are the textbook definition of a hypocrite when you state that you become antiwhatever when someone thinks they are better than everyone else simply because of their beliefs, when the first sentence of your response clearly expresses your own perception of superior knowledge.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top



I think that my Christian way is the only way to "heaven"...does that make me not open minded?


no because-

While I believe that my way is the only way, I don't have my head stuck in the sand. I know that lots of other people believe lots of different things from myself, and that's okay. I would love for everyone to be Christians, but I'm a realist and I know that's not a possibility.


That understanding was what I was referring to as seeing that other people have different experiences than yours that lead them to different beliefs. I think everyone would prefer that everyone else share their beliefs. That can't happen. As long as there are different religius beliefs there is the knowledge that we can't all be right. Of course noone would ever believe they were the ones that had it wrong.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
As long as there are different religius beliefs there is the knowledge that we can't all be right. Of course noone would ever believe they were the ones that had it wrong.


I hesitate to bring this up, but here's something completely relevant to this thought. There is, in certain apocryphal texts, a legend that says that Satan, when he established dominion over the earth, began with the proclamation "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". (if someone a little better versed in this wants to chime in, feel free). While I don't believe in the veracity of that tradition, it's certainly food for thought.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

I think that my Christian way is the only way to "heaven"...does that make me not open minded? I don't think so. I think every religion has that belief...


The Jewish religion specifically says that non-Jews can go to heaven (or new earth or whatever you want to call it) if they are good people. The laws of the Bible apply only to Jews. A Jew has to follow them to go to heaven, a non-Jew does not.

Islam believes that Christians and Jews will go to heaven as well as Muslims, except that the seventh level of heaven is for Muslims only. All Jews born before Muhammed are technically "Muslims" according to Islam. (No, that has NOTHING to do with today's violent Islam.)

Are you open-minded? Perhaps you are not open-minded enough. If you were, would you not have verified what the other two Abrahamic religions have to say about the matter before you announce that every religion has the belief that it is the only way to heaven?

I am no expert on theology, but one thing I know is that G-d is no nitpicker. He doesn't care about the precise rituals or beliefs, if you are a good person.

I do not only believe this, I actually know it; because G-d is by definition perfect and a nitpicker is not.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you will be rewarded for persecution, why not create situations wherein you can interpret others' negative reactions to you as persecution of you for your faith? And of course, there are some Christians who like to view themselves as martyrs...See? They did it to Jesus, now they're doing it to me! That kind of thing.


Like someone once said in rebuttal to the claims of the guy who used to sit in the end zone of NFL games with the rainbow wig and a "John 3:16" sign: "no, we're not persecuting you for your faith, we're persecuting you because you're a NUT"

(interesting update: that particular individual proved, indeed, to be a nut...and a dangerous one at that, when, several years ago he was arrested after taking a hostage and proclaiming the impending end of the world...and that is NOT an urban legend. I'll see if I can find the link for you tomorrow).
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Like someone once said in rebuttal to the claims of the guy who used to sit in the end zone of NFL games with the rainbow wig and a "John 3:16" sign: "no, we're not persecuting you for your faith, we're persecuting you because you're a NUT"


Good one!
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
am no expert on theology, but one thing I know is that G-d is no nitpicker. He doesn't care about the precise rituals or beliefs, if you are a good person.


I appreciate and tend to share that belief. Whenever I express that belief I get "Well how do you know you are a 'good person'?"
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

 

Saying Jesus was white, well them was fightin words!

Was he "white"?  I always picture him with the skin tone of, say, somebody from the Middle East.  Not "white" nor "Black".  If he was from the Middle East, why would he be "white"?

Noone's perfect and noone has the answeres. If they claim to be perfect, it is just a testament to how imperfect they are.

Very true.

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Like someone once said in rebuttal to the claims of the guy who used to sit in the end zone of NFL games with the rainbow wig and a "John 3:16" sign: "no, we're not persecuting you for your faith, we're persecuting you because you're a NUT"


Ain't that the truth.

While there are things in the Bible that don't seem "right" to me ("There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death"...haha, isn't it weird that Bible verses just pop into my head?), I'm not offended by the Bible.

What some (and I won't even say many) Christians don't understand is that what people bristle at is not the message but THEM...their mannerisms, their personality, the aggressive and sometimes even hateful way they express their views.

The Bible doesn't bother me. I actually read it from time to time because some passages are very beautiful, and I think it provides some useful instruction. What I lack is faith, and that can't be forced or faked.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

I appreciate and tend to share that belief. Whenever I express that belief I get "Well how do you know you are a 'good person'?"


I am sure you will be told at the end. Or notice it. Or you won't.

It's not something you need to have spelled out for you.

When I see a small dog, I don't kick it. Everything else is sort of based on that principle.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
This all goes back to the Deism article of a few weeks ago...
Leauki brought up a good point, the Abrahamic religions are all-inclusive, and living a moral, ethical life is the key to heaven, Not adherence to any particular ceremonial activity or denominational mandate.

***Plug*** see my "I wonder...." article, basically SSDD
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's statements like THAT (equating the resurrection with Santa Claus) that explain why I have nothing to do with the DNC, ben. And it is ironic because, in a thread where tolerance was pretty much the rule, you had to show exactly what an anti-Christian IS. You are the textbook definition of a hypocrite when you state that you become antiwhatever when someone thinks they are better than everyone else simply because of their beliefs, when the first sentence of your response clearly expresses your own perception of superior knowledge.


For a nonbeliever, there is a similarity between the resurrection and santa claus--they don't believe that either are real. I'm not sure how it is intolerant to state a belief. BenUser's point stands--it's when you think that your way is the only way that it gets annoying. Gid, you failed to give any credit to the notion that to some people the Jesus of the Bible is make believe. No where did BenUser state that he was better than anyone else--on the contrary, I think you just proved Jill's point quite clearly. BenUser is Nonchristian, but nothing he wrote (on this thread) suggests that he is anti-Christian.

I think Tova was dead on when she discussed the hypersensitivity that is always part of conversations about religion.