KFC Kickin For Christ KFC Kickin For Christ

Does God Exist?

Does God Exist?

Can We Be Sure?

Is there a God? How can we be sure?

I believe this can be intelligently answered. The reason we believe He exists is He told us so and revealed Himself to us.

God is not silent. He has revealed to us who he is, what he's like and what His plans are for Planet Earth. He has revealed these things thru the bible. This is not just a mere book but the very Word of God. The evidence is more than convincing to any that will honesty investigate its claims.

Over the centuries many have tried to destroy this book to no avail. Martin Luther said in the 16th Century,

"Mighty potentates have raged against this book and sought to destroy and uproot it-Alexander the Great and princes of Egypt and Babylon the monarches of Persia, of Greece and of Rome, the Emperors Julius and Augustus-but they prevailed nothing. They are gone while the book remains and it will remain forever and ever, perfect and entire, as it was declared at first. Who has thus helped it-who has protected it against such mighty forces? No one, surely, but God Himself, who is master of all things." 1

The French skeptic Rousseau saw something different in the scriptures.

"I must confess to you that the majesty of the scriptures astonishes me; the holiness of the evangelist speaks to my heart and has such striking characters of truth and is moreover so perfectly imimitable that if it had been the invention of men, the inventiors would be greater than the greatest heroes." 2

Another reason we know that God exists is that He appeared in human flesh. Jesus was God who became a man. "The Word became flesh and lived among us." John 1:14. He also made it clear that He had come to reveal God to all that would listen, and He would show us the way .

If one wanted to know what God was like all he would have to do is look at Jesus. Lord Byron said,

"If ever man was God or God was man, Jesus Christ was both." 3

His coming back from the dead established Himself as having the credentials to be God, and it was this fact that demonstrated truth to the unbelieving world.

So we have the Bible and the person of Jesus Christ as two strong reasons for the existence of God. No other religion or philosophy gives us near the comfort in knowing that there is a loving God who cares and is involved in our everyday life.




1-Fritz Ridenour, Who says G.L. Publications, Regal Books, 1967
2-Encylocopedia of Religious Quotations, Frank Mead, p32
3-Encylocopedia of Religious Quotations, Frank Mead, p81

16,630 views 144 replies
Reply #51 Top
Does God exist?

This can be simply explained by the ol' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy logic.

If you can prove that God exists, than there will be no faith, and in order for God to exist there must be faith in Him. Therefore, if it is proven that God exists, than logically he doesn't exist.

So, basically you can't prove if God exists, because then he wouldn't...the moral of the story is that you have to have faith, and see where that takes you.

~Zoo
Reply #52 Top
Andy,

What kind of God do I ascribe to? A kind loving merciful God who is always faithful to me even when I'm not so faithful to him.. He's a comforter, a help in distress and one that gives me chance after chance to get things right as he is so patient as well. He's doing a work in me day by day (sanctificaltion). We don't know the whys Andy, and we can't go beyond what is written. But I do believe that we are all drowning in the sea of humanity and God reaches down and pulls us out and breathes life into us. I can't explain it. I just know it's happened to me. The way you can really tell if someone is a real believer? By their changed life. Scripture does explain this quite clearly and we see example after example not only scriptural accounts of changed lives but I see them still in person. I can give you story after story of changed lives from all different religious backgrounds but Christ is the dividing line.

You mentioned before and again this time that "all" are children of God. I told you there were two fathers. WE follow one or the other either knowingly or unknowingly. John said ]"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name. who were born not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor of the will of man....but of God. 1:12

God adopts us into his family after he breathes life into us. We then receive all rights and priviledges as any other family member. God takes on the role of protector and provider. It's an incredible priviledge being a child of God. He delights to meet our needs. He shows us that we are welcome and most wanted. Do a search sometime just on the word "adopted" in scripture. I think you'll see some interesting stuff.
Foxy

I don't think believing in God is prideful at all. In fact I think just the opposite. A Christian says they are following the leading of God. He is the good shepherd to the sheep. A non believer is the prideful one. They need no such help. They are ok on their own. They don't see the ravenous wolves out there out for their very soul. They don't see them because these wolves are spiritual. When one comes to Christ he gives us those eyes to see. It's really hard to explain. I wish I could have a dime for every born again Christian who says......."It was a light went on, then I understood." That's why I don't believe you can be a (real) Christian and say...."Once upon a time I was a Christian but now, I'm not." I don't believe they ever were in the first place. You can call youself anything. Doesn't make it so. It'd be like walking out of light into darkness again. Doesn't make sense.

Dharma

That's it???? I ask you to back up your contradictions' statement and you answer by calling me fanatical? Well let's see......so far I've been called arrogant (many times), an almost liar, presumptuous, etc. Most of it comes in when I ask a question. I still have had no response when I ask for so called contradictions. Usually it's a ...."Well just check out this site." I don't want to check out "a site." I want anyone out there to give me one that they have been wrestling with because they have read it for themselves. The ones that talk about contradictions are the ones that have not read the book. And I mean read it!!! Not skim a page or two and say....this doesn't make sense. Because it makes more sense than anything else this crazy world has to offer.

Maybe I am fanatical. I don't know. Maybe that's why John the Baptist lost his head.....he was just too fanatical.

Doc.

I could eat you up with a spoon.............. devout....I can handle that one!!!!






Reply #53 Top
Hi KFC, it’s nice to see you again. Where have you been? I thought you’d abandoned us

What kind of God do I ascribe to? A kind loving merciful God who is always faithful to me even when I'm not so faithful to him.. He's a comforter, a help in distress and one that gives me chance after chance to get things right as he is so patient as well. He's doing a work in me day by day (sanctificaltion). . . . I do believe that we are all drowning in the sea of humanity and God reaches down and pulls us out and breathes life into us. I can't explain it. I just know it's happened to me .


I completely agree with all this, and I couldn’t have worded it any better. But your scope seems to miss the point that I highlighted, which was my main issue. I can’t see how the doctrine that all non-Christians will be punished in hellfire for all eternity is a sound belief, and I'm trying to see how it fits with a realistic view.

Considering the scenarios I described in the previous post, where does God’s “justice” and “love” fit into it? What are your definitions of these divine attributes - justice and love? You define it well when describing how God is merciful and loving to you, but what about people who God chooses not to become a Christian?

I also couldn't understand how the reference to the Devil, as a second father, makes sense of it?
Reply #54 Top
Yes God exists, it's just that Christianity and Islam do not exist.
Reply #55 Top
(by the way, I'm not trying to undermine your faith here KFC. I'm just genuinely intrigued about the issue, and I'm trying to see the rationale in it. Many people hold these beliefs dear to them, I know, and I think that I often come across as an arrogant loud mouth on these pages. You'll have to excuse me. I'm not sure if I belong here half the time)
Reply #56 Top

. The ones that talk about contradictions are the ones that have not read the book

Don't make assumptions about me.  You don't like it when I do it to you, so do unto others as you would have done unto you. 

You present yourself as what I call a 'rabid' christian.  Maybe sometime you should take a look at yourself, see how you represent your faith to other people.  Even I find it disturbing, and I'm somewhat used to it.

It's impossible to have any kind of meaningful rapport with you; your arrogance and ego get in the way.  Ergo, I'm leaving things as they are here until you can calm down. No, you did not win.  Don't go thinking that I'm running scared because I'm not; I just have had (and still do have) real life matters that require my attention right now. You don't want to go look at sites, right?  So, I'll bring the sites here when I have the time and the incination.  Sorry, but I think illnesses and legal trials come first.

Reply #57 Top
Dharma....it's not about winning. The battle belongs to the Lord. I'm just a warrior that's suited up so to speak. When I do bring people to Christ and they finally "see him" I say "one more that has slipped from the grasp of Satan." The war is not of flesh and blood but of spirit and principalities. There is a spiritual battle going on for men's souls and like I used to say to my sons....."I will get between you and whatever is going to take you down"........beit physical or spiritual. The best weapon I had? Prayer and the sword of the spirit which is the word of God.

Was my assumption wrong? If so.......I apologize. All I'm saying is those that have really studied the bible have found out that the enemy's lies about it are untrue.

It's sort of like a neighbor telling you lies about the other neighbor. When you meet neighbor #2 you find out how really sweet and gentle she is and realize that you totally trusted neighbor #1 for a while and feel badly about believing her without checking the accusations for yourself. Then you really see #1 neighbor for who she really is. A liar that can't be trusted.

I'm sorry to hear about what seems to be serious problems in your life. I will definitely keep you on my prayer list. I actually do pray for you.....please don't take it as arrogance but concern. That's all it is. I actually like talking to you. Like I've said before.....some people you walk arm and arm with and some you walk arm and arm and eye to eye.

Of course with you..... I belive we are going in opposite directions. Maybe that's why you feel about me the way you do. As a Christian I am called to be salt and light. Salt that has lost its flavor is useless. I'm just trying to be that salt. When it's full of flavor it can be strong and if it's poured into a wound....it can sting and irritate a bit. But it also has a cleansing effect to go along with this. So just think of me as a salt shaker pouring a bit of salt over you.......strong stuff I admit. But I don't want to be dull and without flavor now do i?

I'm really calm.....really. Geeeeeesh rabid now? I'm collecting quite a list of adjectives. I think I like fanatical better.

Andy,

Of course you belong. I love talking to you. But I do have you pegged for only believing in the "love and mercy" sort of God. I'll get back to you when I have a bit more time on the God of justice as well.

It's tax time and I go away so I can get work done......so I'm not looked at as fanatical. I do have work outside of my studies.
Reply #58 Top
I don't see the bible as evidence of God existing anymore than I can see the Similarion (from JRR Tolkein) to prove that Eru existed.  It's a mythology/history that you have faith in.  But it is not objective evidence unto itself - hence the reliance on faith.
Reply #59 Top
'I don't see the bible as evidence of God existing anymore than I can see the Similarion (from JRR Tolkein) to prove that Eru existed.'
The Similarion? Is that the same thing as the Silmarillion? Or is it only ... er ... 'Similar'?
Reply #60 Top
Well Draginol.......there's a difference...a big one here. We have no evidence that ERU existed now do we? You are trying to say that fiction and non fiction are the same or similar. What about all the archaelogy involved? There has been numerous digs that show the places, people, events etc are indeed who and what they said they were in scripture.

Does that mean archaelogy proves the bible? No. It cannot prove and show that it is indeed inspired of God. But it does show "proof" that some biblical event or passage is historical. There has not been a dig yet that has disproven these places, people and things have not occurred.

The bible, unlike JRR Tolkein's works, has been proven historically correct. You are right tho....there has been no evidence as of yet to show that ERU existed.

I believe the bible holds up very well under historical scrunity,l but again it cannot prove the bible is from God. For example...say we find the ark of the covenant with the tablets that the 10 commandments were written on. We could prove that it came from the time of Moses but we couldn't prove that God had written on them. Same with the ark. We could say well it's a big boat...so what? We can't prove that God helped Noah build it.

To compare a historical document to a work of fiction is absurd.

BTW.......Tolkein was a Christian and best friend of C.S. Lewis. You may want to check on both of these fine gentlemen a bit closer. When I saw the "Fellowship of the Ring" when it first came out......I was amazed at all the hidden Christianity weaved into the words of his book and later inserted into the movie.
Reply #61 Top
Hey Draginol,

I agree with you it is not objective evidence. But why does the Bible receive so much credibility then? It's has wisdom about many different situations and dealing with them. Whether financial, relationships, or interaction with others. This isn't something that someone just came up with this has been proven over thousands of years. The other place the Bible gains most of it's credibility is it's historical records. There are hundreds of archeological digs that were derived from Scriptures. As for evidence that G-D exists science and geology point right to a creator eventhough many scientists try to prove otherwise.

However I want to add that one might consider the evidence of G-D existing from the Bible when they begin looking at the sequence of names. I have some of the names and their literal translation/meaning starting Adam (man) Seth (bring) Enosh (sick) Cainin (dwelling) Mahalalel (Praise G-D) Jared (decends) Enoch (to discipline) Methuselah (men cast out) etc.. When you look at the historical events and the probability it points to a diety or controlling being. That's my 2 cents.

AD
Reply #62 Top

Well Draginol.......there's a difference...a big one here. We have no evidence that ERU existed now do we? You are trying to say that fiction and non fiction are the same or similar. What about all the archaelogy involved? There has been numerous digs that show the places, people, events etc are indeed who and what they said they were in scripture.

Does that mean archaelogy proves the bible? No. It cannot prove and show that it is indeed inspired of God. But it does show "proof" that some biblical event or passage is historical. There has not been a dig yet that has disproven these places, people and things have not occurred.

The bible, unlike JRR Tolkein's works, has been proven historically correct. You are right tho....there has been no evidence as of yet to show that ERU existed.

I believe the bible holds up very well under historical scrunity,l but again it cannot prove the bible is from God. For example...say we find the ark of the covenant with the tablets that the 10 commandments were written on. We could prove that it came from the time of Moses but we couldn't prove that God had written on them. Same with the ark. We could say well it's a big boat...so what? We can't prove that God helped Noah build it.

To compare a historical document to a work of fiction is absurd.

To you the bible is a fact.  We have no evidence that God exists either. 

You feel. You believe. That's nice.  You believe and feel a lot of things. That does not make those things true. You believe the bible doesn't have contradictions. That's blatnatly untrue. I even gave you a link to a site that organizes them. 

I know the bible too. I've read it. Many times. Anyone who knows me personally can tell you that.  People who have come to my house to discuss it will find my bible full of book markers and highlights.  It's an important book.  But a "historical document"? That's absurd.  The bible has not been "proven" to be historically correct.  You saying it or quoting some like minded person who have faith that it is historically correct is meaningless.

There is equal evidence in the existence of God as there is the existence of Eru or the existence or Googly, the god of lost socks.

BTW.......Tolkein was a Christian and best friend of C.S. Lewis. You may want to check on both of these fine gentlemen a bit closer. When I saw the "Fellowship of the Ring" when it first came out......I was amazed at all the hidden Christianity weaved into the words of his book and later inserted into the movie.

Yes, you're easily amazed.  Unlike you apparently, I've known that Tolkien was a devout Christian for a long time.  Jesus, btw, was Jewish. So what? 

What you consider to be "proof" and what people who aren't indoctrinated consider to be proof are two different things.  The bible being a book of mythology doesn't prove God doesn't exist.  I have no idea whether God exists or not.  I have no idea if it's one god, many gods, or no gods.  I don't really care one way or the other.   But as someone who doesn't have preconceived notions on the matter, seeing someone hold up the bible as "proof" of God just looks ridiculous to me. Hence my comparison between the bible as "proof" and any other fictional book (even one that has some historical context in it) does.

But why does the Bible receive so much credibility then?

For the same reason Santa Claus does.  We believe what we're taught.  People who aren't religious don't believe in the bible.  People who are into Scientology believe the things it espouses.

People believing something isn't proof.  People believe all kinds of things.  Most people believe in ghosts and alien abductions too.  That doesn't make them true. 

It's has wisdom about many different situations and dealing with them. Whether financial, relationships, or interaction with others

It does? Have you READ the bible? I mean all of it?  Every time I get into a debate in person with someone who claims to be deeply religious I discover that they are only familiar with relatively small parts of the bible.  Tell me, what wisdom is in Numbers? What teachings should we take away from Leviticus? What tips should we take from Deuteronomy (Sp)?

However I want to add that one might consider the evidence of G-D existing from the Bible when they begin looking at the sequence of names. I have some of the names and their literal translation/meaning starting Adam (man) Seth (bring) Enosh (sick) Cainin (dwelling) Mahalalel (Praise G-D) Jared (decends) Enoch (to discipline) Methuselah (men cast out) etc.. When you look at the historical events and the probability it points to a diety or controlling being. That's my 2 cents.

I don't even know where to start with this line of thinking.  You do know that naming people with meaningful names is not something new right?

Let me be clear, what you believe is your business. It doesn't hurt me if you believe in God or any other magical super being.  But when you try to walk beyond the realm of myth and into the realm of science where there's people who haven't been fed religious dogma of one type or another for years, you're going to run into people who are going to find your arguments uncompelling.

Reply #63 Top
But when you try to walk beyond the realm of myth and into the realm of science where there's people who haven't been fed religious dogma of one type or another for years, you're going to run into people who are going to find your arguments uncompelling.


Help me understand where you are coming from. Science is a huge egg to hatch. I am not the most learned person in science but I think I know enough to get me in trouble . What I have found in many sciences is that there are usually laws or facts that are conveniently ignored or don't apply in reality similar to what happens in economics.
Reply #64 Top
Those of us who are raised by parents who teach us about God can only go so far on the teachings of our parents. Whether a person is raised with a particular belief or not, there comes a time in everyone's life that they have to decide for themselves. That is when true faith comes in.

This is true. God has no grandchildren, only sons and daughters. I grew up as a pastor's kid, but it wasn't until I was in my mid-twenties that my faith became real to ME... it became my own, instead of just some set of teachings that had been passed down to me from my parents. It went from being "head knowledge" to being "heart knowledge", and that was after a considerable amount of time bucking the very beliefs that are now precious to my heart.


But here, I’ll wheel out Sir William Blagg’s quote, because I think it’s apt: “Religion and science are opposed . . . but only in the same sense as that in which my thumb and forefinger are opposed - and between the two, one can grasp everything."

Nice quote!


Actually, for the believers, I suspect there is little more to say of value than jlaur65's comment above:
' my answer--yes, and then yes again.there is no way i could explain it. but there's my answer.'
Can't argue with that!

Eh.. she's a smart kid.





Tell me, what wisdom is in Numbers? What teachings should we take away from Leviticus? What tips should we take from Deuteronomy (Sp)?

Numbers......... begins with the preparations for the march across the desert (Exodus), tells of experiences along the way, speaks to the failure of faith that led that first generation of Israelites to NOT possess the Promised Land, details the 40 years of waiting for the conquset... ends with preparation for entering Canaan. It served as a warning to the generation of Israelites born in the desert to persevere in faith and obedience where their parents had not.... and speaks a similar message to me. It also reminds me of God's sovereign power and His gracious faithfulness.

Leviticus........ gives an account of God's words to Moses and Aaron. It details the rituals that express and teach the values that the society of Israelites held dear, and teaches me what was most important to them. Many of the concepts illustrated in Leviticus are brought forth in the NT as well... sin, sacrifice, atonement... it all points the way to Jesus and the sacrifice He made for me. Leviticus tells me that not only was God present with His people, but that His people also must be holy. Since man can't accomplish that on his own, God provided atonement for sin through the sacrificial system.

Deuteronomy......... this is a repetition of the law and history of Israel. It recounts God's providential care for Israel and also exhorts them to godly living. It contains the law, and also details Joshua's installation as Moses' successor, some great songs of blessing and then the death of Moses. It also (to me, anyway) points to Christ. He is the Passover Lamb (chapter 16) and the coming Prophet (chapter 18). It details the covenant that Moses was mediator of while Christ is the mediator of the new covenant.

I've read all three at one point in time. I'll be the first to admit that they didn't keep me captivated the way other portions of Scripture do, but even in these... there are things that I find very interesting, and I learn something from all of it. 2 Tim. 3:16 says that all Scripture is God-breathed and useful... and I believe it.

I know that most people won't be swayed by my thoughts or experiences, and that's ok. My job isn't to save anyone -- that's God's doing. All I have to do is share what I know about Him. What happens after that is up to Him (and those who hear). Honestly, I don't jump into religious debate as often as some. Knowing that we all have our own ingrained beliefs and that we're all pretty set in those beliefs makes me wonder at how productive it is to spend hours and hours debating the concepts. My time can be better spent growing in my relationship with Christ or living out my faith. Once in a while, though... I'll step in and post a comment or two. Something will catch my eye, or start of chain of thoughts in my head and I'll go with it. My prayer is that I will share my views in such a way as to follow my convictions, without shoving something down someone's throat and making them gag. Generally, if I speak up, it's because something in the thread has struck a chord with my heart. I get turned off by hostile debating and people arguing just for the sake of being right. In the grand scheme, those things are so insignificant. What good does it do to disprove someone else's claim if they totally reject considering my beliefs because my style was offensive? It would be pointless.
Reply #65 Top
Draginol

One question. If you have read the bible as you say.....then why are you pointing me to a site to give me a contradiction? You should be able to come up with one in a nano second. After all you say there are so many contradictions so there must be many to pick from.

The bible has no contradictions at all in it. I still can't seem to get any from people like you who say there are. I don't want a site. I want an example that has been bothering you and the reason you cannot believe the bible to be true.

In the OT books you mentioned? You can see Christ hidden between the pages. The OT is revealed in the New and the NT is conceled in the OLD. It all fits together like a glove.

Yes Jesus was Jewish. That's the whole reason for the OT's history of the Jews. It all pointed to the one that would come. The Jewish race was protected and preserved even tho more than once it was almost wiped out......Satan did all he could to stop the "promised one" from entering the world.

There are people from all walks of life who have come to find out that not only is the bible what it claims to be but there is a personal God that cares for his own. I have seen many atheists and agnostics that were not "indoctrinated" as children come to Christ late in life. What about them?

I don't just believe for the heck of it. I don't believe in God cuz it makes me feel good. No, I believe in Him because he made himself known to me and I've had an encounter with him. I know he's real and alive as I know my husband and children are. You just have not met him yet. It doesn't mean he's not here. You just haven't seen him but don't worry you will in some form or fashion. I believe we all will stand before him one day and have to account for our lives here on earth but most of all I believe we will have to answer the question....What did you do with Jesus? Who do you say he is?
Reply #67 Top

One question. If you have read the bible as you say.....then why are you pointing me to a site to give me a contradiction? You should be able to come up with one in a nano second. After all you say there are so many contradictions so there must be many to pick from.

I don't sit around and reinvent the wheel.    If there is already a resource that is better than anything I could quickly put together, then I make use of that instead.  Productivity is the path to business success.  Hence, the links to the sites.

In another post, I gave you some contradictions, but you completely ignored them and moved right along.  It was easier for me to simply give a URL rather than continually rewrite what I had written.

But fine, here are a few contradictions for you:

Genesis 1:25 "God made th ebeasts of the earth after his kind, and the cattle after their kind, etc." This was BEFORE he created Man.

Yet

Genesis 2:19 AFTER man was created "And out of the groudn the LORD God formed every beat of the field.."  Which is correct?

Levitcus 11:19: (about what birds shall not be eaten) And teh stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

The bat is not a bird.  It's a mammal. Does God not know this?

Levitcus 11:6: "And teh hare, because he cheweth the cud,but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you."

Um, no, the rabbit does not chew its cud.  Rabbits dont' bring up anything.

And to repeat the issue of Genesis:

Day 1: Let there be light.

Day 4: The sun is made. The stars are made. The moon is made.  So where did the light come from?

In Genesis 32:30: "For I have seen God face to face..."

but then Tim: 6:16: "No man hath seen nor can see [God]"  So which is true? Can you see God or not?

In Matt 27:5 Judas died by hanging himself: "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed and went out and hanged himself"

But then in Acts 1:18 it says "And falling headling, he burst asunder in the midst and all of his bowels gushed out."  So which way did Judas die. If you really read the bible so closely, how could you not notice this?

Or a little one: Michal, (daughter of Saul) had never had children said one place in the bible but then mcuh laster it says that she had five sons.

Let's talk about St. Paul himself..

ACT 9:7 says that the men who came with Paul heard God's voice.  But then in ACT 22:9 it says "And they that were with me saw indeed the light and weree afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."  So did they hear God or not?

How about the color of the robe placed on Jesus in his trial? Was it scarlet (According to Matthew) or was it purple (according to John?)  Did they give him Vinigar (Matthew) or Wine with Myrrh (according to Mark)

Let's talk about Kings.  In 24:8 Jehoiachin was supposed to be 18 years old when he started to rule.  But then later on in CH2 36:9 he was only 8 years old when he began to reign.  Which is it?

Or how about GOd himself? Does God try to tempt men or not?  IN Genesis 22:1 "God did tempt Abraham" But later in Jame 1:13 it says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tepted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempeth he any man." I.e. God doesn't tempt men.

The last one that sticks out in my mind are Jesus's last words:

Matt (27:46) says Jesus's last words were "My God, my God, why hast thou forsken me? and Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yieleded up the ghost"

Not to be outdone, Luke claims Jesus said "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

And then John gets in there and claims Jesus said "When Jesus therefore had received the vinigar, he said "It is finished:" and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost.

The only thing they have in common is that Jesus gave up the ghost. 

But no..no contradictions there...

It makes me believe you haven't read the bible as thoroughly as you claimed.

 

Reply #68 Top
The question does God exist is an important one. And if you have to ask the question, then he must not really exist at all.
Reply #69 Top
I don't think contradictions in the bible disprove the existence of God.  It just means that the bible is the work of men and men are imperfect.  Whether the bible is inspired by the divine is not relevant because ultimately, either way, flawed humans were the instruments in its making.  KFC saying there are no contradictions tells me that either a) She hasn't read the bible or B) She doesn't remember the bible.
Reply #70 Top
Draginol,

I'll take your challenge on. It may take me a few days because I am swamped at work and I don't have my laptop . So please bear with me.

Q1: Genesis 1 and 2 regarding creation of man and beast.
Genesis 1 does not give any evidence of which was created first (man or beast). The assumption that beasts were created first is only supported by the fact that it was mentioned first. Same with Genesis 2 there is no evidence that one came before the other. We can't even really conclude whether Eve was created before or after the beasts either. I see no wording of then, before, first etc... I fail to see how this really contradicts.

Q2: Lev 11:19 regarding bats being a bird.
Lev 11:13 is where we must begin this discussion as it is the root of your contradiction. The Hebrew root word that has been translated to fowl is "uwph' (#5774) which simply means 'to fly (with wings).' The same word is used in Verse 20 but isn't talking about birds. How many birds do you know have four feet?

I know there are many more but I better get back to work. If I don't get back later this afternoon have a great weekend everyone.

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Reply #71 Top
I don't wanna tackle them all, but I'll offer my thoughts on the first one if that's ok. Take it or leave it, for what it's worth.

Genesis 1 is a detailed explanation of the six days of creation, day by day. Genesis two is a recap, with more emphasis on the 6th day, the day that Adam and Eve were made. I don't think chapter two is intended to be a chronological account but is a topical one. (this same format can be found in Gen. 10. The Tower of Babel in Ch. 11 actually precedes the Table of Nations, but Moses listed the TON first). I think the animals aren't mentioned until after Adam because the point is that their purpose was to be designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after he was created. Chapter 1 has the sequential events for the creation week, while chapter 2 is concerned with man and his environment. It wasn't meant to be chronological. Further support of this is that in chapter 2 there is no mention of the oceans, fish, sun, moon or stars. Gen. 2 presupposes chapter 1 and is built upon it. Rather than seeing a contradiction, I see the two accounts as complementary -- the second expounding on the first.

I appreciate your allowance that contradictions (or apparent ones) in the Bible don't disprove the existence of God, Draginol. As for me, I still choose to believe that the Bible is inerrant... I understand that you feel differently. Thanks for taking the time to list specific contradictions here... I think it will be fun to do some research. I'm grateful for people who make me really think through my theology and know why I believe what I believe. That's important to me.
Reply #72 Top
If you accept the proposition, the Bible is not perfect due to the fact Man wrote it. Then you have to accept that much that is written remains uncertain as to its legitimacy.
Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but what guide do we go by in declaring which parts of the Bible are true and witch parts aren't.

I think certainty about Biblical subjects will never be resolved, because even in your own self, there are struggles with which parts are important and which aren't. If we can't reconcile those items within ourselves, how do we expect to even begin in others?

Reply #73 Top
If you accept the proposition, the Bible is not perfect due to the fact Man wrote it. Then you have to accept that much that is written remains uncertain as to its legitimacy.Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but what guide do we go by in declaring which parts of the Bible are true and witch parts aren't.

Ah, but there's the difference. I don't believe that it isn't perfect. For someone who does, your point is totally valid. For me, it doesn't work because the premise isn't true. I don't believe that there are parts that are true and parts that aren't.

I think certainty about Biblical subjects will never be resolved, because even in your own self, there are struggles with which parts are important and which aren't.

Again, I think it's all important, so I have no struggle. To me, it's not about which pieces don't fit, but instead is about putting them all together. I'm convinced that I will never know all there is to know (or even a fraction of it! ) about the Bible and how it all works together. That doesn't negate my belief that is does, or my experience of having God speak to me through it. I consider myself blessed to have the freedom to explore it's pages and see what's there... it truly is a privilege of living in this great country.
Reply #74 Top
'The question does God exist is an important one. And if you have to ask the question, then he must not really exist at all.'
Say what? In that case, here are some other things that 'don't exist at all' - atoms, molecules, consciousness, the solar system, DNA, magnetism, gravity. So unless we know a priori that something exists, it doesn't? Honestly foxjazz, I've seen some moronic arguments in my time but that takes the biscuit.
Reply #75 Top

If you accept the proposition, the Bible is not perfect due to the fact Man wrote it. Then you have to accept that much that is written remains uncertain as to its legitimacy.
Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but what guide do we go by in declaring which parts of the Bible are true and witch parts aren't.

I think certainty about Biblical subjects will never be resolved, because even in your own self, there are struggles with which parts are important and which aren't. If we can't reconcile those items within ourselves, how do we expect to even begin in others?

First off, KFC has stated that she believes the bible should be taken word for word. Some people have already started to make some allowances.  Others are trying to trim around the edges.

The story of Judas is a no brainer for instance. There is no wiggle room there.  One account implies that Judas felt remorse and hung himself. The other states he took the money and bought a farm and died in a very different way.  I find it pretty telling that the literalists here are messing around with the "are bats birds" one.  Talk about splitting hairs. 

I don't think anything in the bible is godly because I'm agnostic.  It's just another book of mythology - abeit, one that is rather sloppily written.

All I have to do is show ONE contradiction for KFC to be proven wrong in her statements. I think I've made my point. It is full of contradictions.  Seeing people gloss over the whole light on the first day but then we get the sun and stars later while instead focusing on whether beasts came before or after man is the kind of thing that I think makes my point.  KFC or others who agree with her should be able to zip through my list with rational explanations. Not split hairs over a couple of them while leaving the huge ones untouched.