DID TOOKIE WILLIAMS DESERVE TO DIE

MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS

On December 13, 2005 a few minutes past mid night a well built, healthy man walked the last few hundred feet between his cell on Death Row at San Quentin and the excecution chamber. That Tookie Williams was a ruthless killer no one denies. That he had a violent youth in which a dissipated life careened out of control uder the influence of poverty and drugs too no one denies. He along with Raymond set up a violent street gang, Cripps, this too is a fact. And he killed four people in typical gang land style. Having said all this can we say that he deserved a chance to straighten out his lfe.

I do not buy the theory of procecutorial misconduct during the course of the trial. That he was responsible for killing four young men is certain.

After his trial, Tookie Williams had embarked upon the worthy course of warning Black youth of the dangers of gang warfare and drugs by writing a series of books. He also wrote his autobiography which explains the social context in which he grew up. A fatherless childhood and two children from two different women by the time he was 18, and an irresponsible attitude towards his children, made him seek the refuge in a gang. The gang is probably the one social group that provided a degree of self worth and then the drift into crime.

It is not quite right to disscount the race factor in the debade on the Death Penalty. Tookie Williams was probed fro nearly 1 hour with hypodermic syringes before the vein to let the lethal mixture was found. This is ceratainly a cruel and unusual way of killing an individual, Further it took Mr Tookie Williams nearly 10 minutes to die. Some agony.

The federal jusdes had reccomended clemency for Tookie Williams on the ground that he had behaved in an exemplary manner in the last half of his life. He died at the age of 52 for a crime committed at the age of 24. Obviously he was a completely different man to the callow youth who had done the horrible deeds.Can this factor not be the ground for mercy?
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Reply #1 Top
All death sentences are "Cruel and Unusual" when you define putting someone to death as cruel. And it's unusual to die of anything other than natural causes, by that same logic. Are you saying that Timothy McVeigh also did not deserve death? As has been pointed out on previous articles (which I unfortunately can't find right now), Tookie and Timmy are of cut of the same cloth: domestic terrorists. Tookie started his terror cells in LA and they quickly spread to every major city in America; McVeigh started his terror cell in a motel room in Kingman, AZ, on his way to the Ryder truck rental store.
Reply #2 Top
I have responded to the debate on Tookie Williams, but once again it was a waste of time. After reading all of the negetive and racial comments I have come to the conclusion that ignorance is why the world is what it is today.
Reply #3 Top
What does race have to do with it? Are you saying that Tookie should not have been executed for murdering four people because he was black or something?

I don't get it.
Reply #4 Top

It is not quite right to disscount the race factor in the debade on the Death Penalty. Tookie Williams was probed fro nearly 1 hour with hypodermic syringes before the vein to let the lethal mixture was found. This is ceratainly a cruel and unusual way of killing an individual, Further it took Mr Tookie Williams nearly 10 minutes to die. Some agony.


I think that is a cruel and unusual way of arguing.

Your argument does not relate to your thesis. And what does "to let the lethal mixture was found" mean?
Reply #5 Top
Funny how a person who muders one or many is a really bad person and deserves the death penalty, but since the death penalty takes time to be done, during that time the condemmed can be a nice person and all of a sudden we should feel bad for them and let them live. That's just plain sick.
Reply #6 Top
during that time the condemned can be a nice person and all of a sudden we should feel bad for them and let them live.


It does not negate the crime or overturn the verdict. Makes you wonder why he/she didn't set his/her life in order before going on the murderous rampage that sent him/her to death row.

At any rate, this doesn't even apply to Tookie. He was not a model prisoner by any stretch of the imagination.
San Francisco KRON-TV News article

Officials at San Quentin State Prison are disputing comments from supporters of condemned killer Stanley "Tookie" Williams that the Nobel Peace Prize nominee has been a "model prisoner."

San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon offers faint praise of Williams' recent record behind bars.

"I think, the last 10 years, he has not attacked any persons on Death Row, and has not been in violation of, any serious rule violation," Crittendon said. During the previous 15 years behind bars, Williams record was more checkered. "Well, he's been involved in incidents that involved sexual abuse, battery, assault on staff, threatening staff, fighting, just to list a few of the incidents that he's been involved in."


Reply #7 Top
Obviously he was a completely different man to the callow youth who had done the horrible deeds.Can this factor not be the ground for mercy?


Tookie might have been different, but a great many others weren't. They were all still dead. If Tookie's change of heart could be considered as ground for clemency, his victims forced inability ever to change again, in any way, ought to be (and was) the ground on which his lawful execution was carried out.

State sanctioned lawful execution isn't about deterrence (how can it be just, supposing deterrence worked, to make one man pay with his life to teach others not to murder?) - it's about punishment.

He killed citizens without the sanction of the State, therefore the State ought (as in the moral imperative) to kill him.

Firstly, the prerogative of saying who shall live and who shall die belongs to the State and the State alone. By killing, Tookie committed the crime of lese majeste and on that ground alone he ought to have been executed.

Secondly, he killed citizens, preventing the State from benefiting from the contribution of those citizens. Since natural (let alone State) justice dictates that in order to be just punishment should match the severity of the crime, and since (in our culture at least) there is no higher value than that of life, the only appropriate punishment for murder is the extinguishing of the life of the murderer.

And since, in order to be just, this execution must be carried by an agency devoid of personal ill-will towards the killer, the only appropriate agent of execution is the State.

On every ground of law and political reason, Tookie Williams (and all those in the same position as he) should suffer State execution.
Reply #8 Top
Tookie Williams was an unrepentent pox on society almost from the moment he left the womb.
I don't care what your life was like before you commit a crime; right is right and wrong is wrong. We all know the difference.
Nothing changes that, so I don't feel sorry for those people who had it rough growing up, and try to use that as their excuse for their poor behavior. "Pity me, I'm black and fatherless. I had no chance for a decent life." That's bullshit and everyone knows it. Everyone with common sense, that is.
Robbery is wrong. Murder is wrong. Committing cold-blooded (especially race-biased, as he did) murder in the act of a robbery is VERY wrong. Tookie Williams got what he deserved.

More than can be said for his victims.
Reply #9 Top
And I certainly feel no pity for the man because they had trouble finding a vein in his arm (claiming it took an hour is a gross exaggeration, btw, it was more like 6 or 7 minutes according to the witnesses) and had to poke around a bit.
---LW

I'd venture a guess that this had something to do with the fact that he'd spent the last quarter-century tremendously bulking up on weights provided on the taxpayer's dime.
You know what I mean; weights put there so the prisoners can be ten times stronger and in ten times better shape than the guards who watch them.
Reply #10 Top
Yes.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #11 Top
After reading all of the negetive and racial comments I have come to the conclusion that ignorance is why the world is what it is today.


After reading all the crap you've spouted I have come to the conclusion that the world is the way it is because of people like you - those who see racism where there is none, those who think that it's okay to let murderers and rapists run free because they said they were sorry, those who think that all a person has to do is attach their name to a couple of badly written books to atone for their sins. People like you - children, in other words. Children who are ignorant to the ways of the world and the depths that human beings will sink to in order to get what they want, when they want.

My hope for humanity rests in the knowledge that you will one day grow the fuck up and see just who wrong you were.
Reply #12 Top
After reading all the crap you've spouted I have come to the conclusion that the world is the way it is because of people like you - those who see racism where there is none, those who think that it's okay to let murderers and rapists run free because they said they were sorry, those who think that all a person has to do is attach their name to a couple of badly written books to atone for their sins. People like you - children, in other words. Children who are ignorant to the ways of the world and the depths that human beings will sink to in order to get what they want, when they want.

My hope for humanity rests in the knowledge that you will one day grow the fuck up and see just who wrong you were.
---dharma

Man! I couldn't find a place to highlight just one or two points here! I had to "quote" the whole damn thing!

(Insert "triple snap" here) You go girl!

Reply #13 Top
dont know how many times you have to be told this, Bahu, TOOKIE DID NOT WRITE ANY BOOKS. They were ghostwritten by a WOMAN who paid him a portion of the profits to use his NAME.


OK But he did warn the youth not to follow him into crime and he did not profit from crimes that he paid for with his life. All I am saying is that when we debate Capital Punishment we have to take the social environment of the pertetrator of crime.

The Timothy Mcveigh excecution is of a different order of magnitude and he was a mass murderer who killed for a diabolical political reason and cannot be equated with Tookie.
Reply #14 Top
What does race have to do with it? Are you saying that Tookie should not have been executed for murdering four people because he was black or something?


Then answer the question: Why are the majority of the inmates on DEATH ROW in American prisons predominantly black and statistically speaking well beyond the propotion of their percentage in the US population.
Reply #15 Top
Firstly, the prerogative of saying who shall live and who shall die belongs to the State and the State alone. By killing, Tookie committed the crime of lese majeste and on that ground alone he ought to have been executed


Man you are way off the track. The state has no right over the lives of the citizens, and that too a seemingly democratic one. Only the Monarchs of the middle ages claimed the right over the lives of their citizens on the ground that they were subjects of the King and homicide was punished by death because the act itself was seen as treason in the eyes of the Monarch. After the 18th century the attitudes began to change.
Reply #16 Top
Robbery is wrong. Murder is wrong. Committing cold-blooded (especially race-biased, as he did) murder in the act of a robbery is VERY wrong. Tookie Williams got what he deserved


I have not in any manner justified any of his crimes. In fat I have listed them all out.
Reply #18 Top
Why are the majority of the inmates on DEATH ROW in American prisons predominantly black and statistically speaking well beyond the propotion of their percentage in the US population.


Maybe it's because they commit more crimes? If you've got so many statistics, why don't you look up WHY they're on death row to begin with. I'm sure it's not for overcharging to cut someone's lawn.

-- B
Reply #19 Top
All I am saying is that when we debate Capital Punishment we have to take the social environment of the pertetrator of crime.
---Bahu

And as I said, what does that matter? Committing crimes is wrong; it's nothing anyone has to think about. I don't care what your personal background is, stealing is wrong, and that includes stealing a life.




Then answer the question: Why are the majority of the inmates on DEATH ROW in American prisons predominantly black and statistically speaking well beyond the propotion of their percentage in the US population.
---Bahu

Because, according to FBI statistics, blacks, despite being only 12-15% of the overall US population, commit something like 52% of the overall violent crimes. OVERALL. You wanna talk way out of proportion? How's that? Also, they commit most of the race-based crimes. The average number of white-black crimes is well below the average of black-white.
Tookie killed white people because he hated them. That's a documented fact, admitted by the man himself. How do you exlain that one?


Man you are way off the track
---Bahu

In your humble opinion, of course.



The state has no right over the lives of the citizens, and that too a seemingly democratic one.
--Bahu

Well, as someone on here somewhere said, since the Death Penalty was reinstated in 1976, there have been over ten thousand inmates sentenced to Death Row, but only 1,000 executions in that time. Not exactly running them through an abbatoir, now are they? They're given much more than enough time to post multiple appeals and to have clemency hearings and such, if warranted.


After the 18th century the attitudes began to change.
---Bahu

Would that be the "Age of Enlightenment", or the "Age when we started losing our ability to control our civilization?" I'd vote for the latter.


I have not in any manner justified any of his crimes. In fat I have listed them all out.
---Bahu

But it sounds to me like you're excusing them because of his background. That's just as bad, in my book.


Maybe it's because they commit more crimes? If you've got so many statistics, why don't you look up WHY they're on death row to begin with. I'm sure it's not for overcharging to cut someone's lawn.
---Mr. Frog

Exactly; besides, Tookie would never have been caught doing any real work. Goes against the Gangbanger's Creed. Why work when you can just steal from the people who work?
Reply #20 Top
Bahu:
The state has no right over the lives of the citizens, and that too a seemingly democratic one


LW:
It has the right to compell its citizens to do all SORTS of things, from compulsory education to paying taxes to induction in the armed services to being executed.
And as a democracy we have not only voluntarily GIVEN our government these powers, we have DEMANDED that they make use of them and carry out the laws that "WE THE PEOPLE" have voted into passing.


It's called a social contract. It started with "We the People" in 1776 and has evolved to meet the needs of the society in which we live. The colonists formed a government in order to protect its interests and livelihood, as well as its physical security against Redcoats, Indians, and the like. And we still do that today, compelling society (the government) to protect our interests in everything from the "War on Drugs" to education reform.

Bahu:
The Timothy Mcveigh excecution is of a different order of magnitude and he was a mass murderer who killed for a diabolical political reason and cannot be equated with Tookie.


I gotta disagree with you there. McVeigh only blew up one building. Tookie inspired 96000 deaths since 1979.

Here's Tookie's legacy.
A recent article in the Los Angeles Times cited more than a thousand gangs, with some 85,000 members in Los Angeles County alone, although some criminologists
question this number. What we do know is that not only are gangs responsible for murder, kidnapping, robbery, rape and witness intimidation, but they are also becoming involved in so- called white collar crime, such as credit card fraud. What we do know is that many of these gangs have formidable arsenals.


Just 'cause Tookie only pulled the trigger on four doesn't mean he didn't start a system of murder, drugs, and corruption. So who's the bigger culprit?

I realize you are opposed to the death penalty in general, but you have to realize that each case is individual. Americans do not take capital punishment lightly, as seen in the actual figures of people put to death compared with the tens of thousands SENTENCED to death row.

If you're going to champion the abolition of the death penalty, do it with someone more saintly than Tookie Williams.
Reply #21 Top
Tookie's case is not an argument against but for the death penalty.
Reply #22 Top
Secondly, he killed citizens, preventing the State from benefiting from the contribution of those citizens. Since natural (let alone State) justice dictates that in order to be just punishment should match the severity of the crime, and since (in our culture at least) there is no higher value than that of life, the only appropriate punishment for murder is the extinguishing of the life of the murderer.


Damn, emp. You're good. Have an insightful, on the house!
Reply #23 Top
And by the way, he DID profit from these 'books.' It is illegal for an inmate to make money by selling his story (thanks to John Wayne Gacy for that, i believe)


Actually, it was Berkowitz. They're known as "Son of Sam Laws". And not every state actually has them, but I'm pretty sure California does.
Reply #24 Top
The PEOPLE decide what's best for the people, and our government is just an instrument used to carry out that will.


You are turning political theory on its head:Representative democracy works best when the political leadership acts in accordance to the mandate from the people. If this is how the US democracy functions then Iraq War would not have happened.

As for the state having the right to take life, this question is still being debated both within and outside the USA.


The point is could TW have been given life in jail wihout parole. Would that have not met the ends of justice,
Reply #25 Top
I think it tells a lot about who YOU are that you think it is your JOB to educate and make the rest of us "think."

What have you said or done that makes you believe your views are better or more elevated than our own?

You write as if we have several steps to rise on the "reasoning pyramid" before reaching your vaulted plateau.

But from what I can see, and my eyes are WIDE open, is you standing at the bottom of the "reasoning" pyramid, with your eyes closed demanding others higher on the pyramid learn from you. But you are talking to the dirt because you believe you are on the top of the pyramid looking down at the rest of us. If you'd open YOUR eyes you'd see the reality.

It is...debating this entire issue is retarded. He is DEAD DEAD DEAD. Constantly talking about him and his "worth" is worthless.

AND if you'd shut up and listen you might figure out how to open your eyes and start the long trek up the pyramid. But first you might have to admit to yourself that some of us don't see you as a catalyst to make us "think" but more as an obstinate child who refuses to accept reality.

But I'm not holding my breath.