Dr Guy Dr Guy

Zero Tolerance is Zero Intelligence

▼

Zero Tolerance is Zero Intelligence

A Promise is a Promise

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/02/student.threats.ap/index.html
from JoeUser Forums

2 students in Orange Co. California are facing expulsion for taking a teacher at her word.  The teacher assigned a project where the students were to keep a journal with the understanding that no one would read it   (except her for grading).  Instead the teacher read somethings and decided to let others read them as well.  And the students were suspended and are awaiting an expulsion hearing.

Why?  Well, in their journals, they talked about torturing and killing a teacher.  From the little snippets that the article revealed, it appears that they were just being stupid adolescents, and trying to one up each other on what they thought was a funny scenario.  All with the expectation of the journal not being read per the promise of the teacher.  But she broke her promise.

And in the zero tolerance of the post Columbine mentality of schools, these students are being punished not for anything they did (or you could say for doing what hey were told, but I digress), but for believing the word of an adult.

In this stupidity that passes for education today, they ignatzes don't even realize the damage they have done, not only to these 2 students, but to their own reputations.  No longer can any student trust the word of a teacher.  All teachers are suspect, and should be regarded as only telling the truth, when it suits them, and not when it is the right thing to do.  And that is the lesson the teachers are not only teaching these 2 students, but the entire student body.  Wow!  What Nobel prize winning candidates!

When are these mental midgets going to learn that actions speak louder than words?  And when you leave reason at the school door, the only thing you are teaching the students is to never trust people in authority.  For they will always let you down?  It requires no intelligence to enforce a zero tolerance policy where a spork becomes an expulsion offense.  And the trust that the teachers are supposed to be trying to create with their student is gone. 

I am glad most of my children are out of school.  I pray that the remaining 2 will not be saddled with mental midgets in their last few years. But my grandchildren will have to spend a school career with a bunch of mind numbed robots that cant think for themselves and that my grandchildren can never trust for anything.  Not even legitimate school work.

It is a sad day in education, not because of 2 over hormonal jocks who may have to seek a new school, but for the millions of school children that just learned a valuable lesson.  Never trust a teacher.  Hire a lawyer and get them to sign an unbreakable contract.

The Legal professions stock just doubled, thanks to idiots in education.

17,735 views 129 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top

"IF" is the word of the day. "IF". How do you know? "Probably" doesn't cut it when you're a teacher and someone says something like that. You're saying that "Probably" nothing would have happened, but if something did, and the teacher said nothing because of trust and confidentiality issues, you'd "probably" be the first to blame her, right?

It is called Life!  The only sure thing in life is death and taxes!  Everything else always carries an IF.  best for Educators to learn that so they can teach our children well.

Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
They're not going to be "smeared" for life, either.


Well, "IF" (heh heh) they were kicked out of school for making terrorist threats, then that WILL go on their educational records. That could make it difficult to simply move on to another school, and colleges will probably be thinking twice about admitting them, too.
And "IF" it comes to legal action, involving the police or, God forbid, Social(ist) Services, then they'll have THAT tagging along with them, too.
If, later in life, they accidently shoot someone in a hunting accident, or run someone over, their record will show a history of potentially violent behavior, and their motives may be suspicioned and called into question.
And what about getting them counseling? That'll go on their medical records forever, along with the reason.

And it all, more than likely, would been for nothing.

Not an issue with the school or the teacher.


But many schools have such policies. I understand that it's a societal issue, but modern society is such that we've surrendered common sense and personal responsiblity to "IF" and, taking that further, to CYA.

I mean, getting back to "IF" for a minute...."IF" I may, "IF" is why fast food joints now have to warn us in print not to spill hot coffee on ourselves, and to be careful when we bite into hot French Fries (of course, I can't recall the last time I actually GOT "hot" fries in a fast food place). It's why manufacturers of baby care products have to remind us, in print, to remove the baby from the stroller or playpen before folding. It's why toy manufacturers have to remind us, in print, that "This Bag is Not A Toy".

The boys did something stupid. The teahcer knows the boys; she could have taken the responsiblity on herself and said "Look you two....what you've written here is unacceptable, and dangerous. I have to ask....is there anything you might like to talk about?" But no. Instead, she betrayed her word to the students and covered her ass, and that of the school.
That's what was so wrong with this.
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top

wonder how quickly we'd be expelled today for celebrating in song such violence and hate? How long we'd be court-ordered to spend in therapy?

For life and locked up in prison!  But we sang that as well.

Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the reason why people are so willing to give this kids a pass is because they're football stars.

These kids are far too old for this to be chalked up to the stupidity of youth. One's a legal adult and the other is about to be.

It was a school assignment, and I don't think they should have had any expectation that it would not be read by their teacher.

They wrote graphically about gluing her naked body to the wall, cutting off her feet, and then murdering her as her family watched, among other things.

And we are finding fault in the teacher?
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top

lol...I understand where you're coming from. Don't get me wrong. I think its a shame that we have to be so up in arms over such silly things... But it's a fact of life in America today, you know?

NO. It is not.  it is an exception to life.  Dont confuse a massive accident with every day life.

Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top

"If" is a big word, and you can't live your life in fear of it. "If" this happens....or that. What if it doesn't? Then what?
These two kids have been smeared, pretty much for life, because of an "If" that wasn't tempered with common sense.

That gets you an insightful!

Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top

Don't you think that other parents would be having TIZZIES if these students would be allowed to continue their educations at this school?

The parents are split!  half are in a tizzie over the injustice.  Half are sheep that wont let johnny get a cut!  That is the whole point of this article.

Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top

I think the issue is that she lied to them and told them there would be no repercussions from what they wrote. She said they wouldn't be read.

The policy is meaningless in terms of what they did or didn't do, the problem is she baited them into breaking said policy. She should have told them honestly that what they wrote would be read, and then they wouldn't have written what they did.

That is the big part of it.  But it is only half.  The other half is the lack of discretion that zero tolerance allows.  Trained monkeys could do as well as these clowns did.

Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
What I find even more aggravating is the cases of kids being expelled for bringing Tylenol or a nail file to school. Zero tolerance definately gets out of hand.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top

agree zero tolerance is not such a great thing but we are looking at a different student than we were 20 years ago.

Guess what?  We had a bomb go off in our school!  Yep!

year?  1971.  Schools are no different today than they were 30 years ago.  Just the mass hysteria is different.

Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

The boys did something stupid. The teahcer knows the boys; she could have taken the responsiblity on herself and said "Look you two....what you've written here is unacceptable, and dangerous. I have to ask....is there anything you might like to talk about?" But no. Instead, she betrayed her word to the students and covered her ass, and that of the school.
That's what was so wrong with this.

Finally!  A voice of Reason!  Dont expect to be hired for school administration tho!

Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
Teachers have no "privileged communication"!

Despite their oath to confidentiality, even counselors, psychologists, and chaplains have a responsibility to report if they feel the counselee is a threat to him/herself or others. An imminent threat. If the counselee is threatening suicide, the counselor can legally call in authorities or call the hospital. If the counselee is threatening lighting himself and the family on fire inside his house, the counselor has a responsibility to report it to authorities.

And in either case, the counselor would be liable if he or she did nothing, citing privilege.

So 1) the teacher was way out of line by offering "privileged communication". Though she didn't expect what she got, there was no way she could have sat idly by when such a crazed plan came out.

2) the teacher was not out of line when she reported the "hate speech". And yes, this qualifies as "hate speech", or at least "psychopathic".

So no, I don't have any sympathy whatsoever for the football studs. They deserved what they got, whether it was a harmless prank or a real plan for depraved violence.
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top

These kids are far too old for this to be chalked up to the stupidity of youth. One's a legal adult and the other is about to be.

All well and good.  So if I say I am going to Burn texas, here and now.  I should be arrested?  Same thing.  Except Brad and Co are not so stupid as to call in the FBI on me.  That is the difference.

You were never an hormonal male adolescent (and since both are still in school, that is what they are). We are fricking rutting bucks!  We say this crap all the time!  And how many act on it? 

Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top

What I find even more aggravating is the cases of kids being expelled for bringing Tylenol or a nail file to school. Zero tolerance definately gets out of hand.

Yes!  Those are more examples of Zero Intelligence!

Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top

So 1) the teacher was way out of line by offering "privileged communication". Though she didn't expect what she got, there was no way she could have sat idly by when such a crazed plan came out.

2) the teacher was not out of line when she reported the "hate speech". And yes, this qualifies as "hate speech", or at least "psychopathic".

On 1, yes

On 2, it is not the teacher!  It is the stupid idiots! Zero Tollerance = Zero Intelligence! The teacher may have been required, but the administration has to start thinking, and stop acting like trained monkeys.

Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
You were never an hormonal male adolescent (and since both are still in school, that is what they are). We are fricking rutting bucks! We say this crap all the time! And how many act on it?


No, that doesn't make it ok.

At best, they are malicious punk kids who exercised EXTREMELY poor judgment. At worst, they are wanna be murderers who have issued a direct death threat with the intent to carry it out.

I have two boys, and let me tell you, if they were caught writing shit like that, I would expect their teacher to report it, and where school punishment ended, my husband and I would take over.

This is not "boys will be boys."
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
These kids are far too old for this to be chalked up to the stupidity of youth. One's a legal adult and the other is about to be.
---Tex W.

Since when has age been a factor in mitigating stupidity?



They wrote graphically about gluing her naked body to the wall, cutting off her feet, and then murdering her as her family watched, among other things.

And we are finding fault in the teacher?
---Tex W.

As I said, the teacher (who was no doubt required, as part of her studies, to take Psychology, which shold have helped her assess their journals as "threats" or simply idiotic, juvenile behavior) knew these students. From everyday contact. Yes, I blame the teacher because she could have called them in and had a little talk with them. That could have ended the whole thing. Instead, she played into the whole "mass hysteria" thing.
We've come to believe, because of the intense brainwashing we've endured since Columbine, that no one ever says anything unless they plan to do it. That's just not true and we all know it.
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have two boys, and let me tell you, if they were caught writing shit like that, I would expect their teacher to report it, and where school punishment ended, my husband and I would take over.

This is not "boys will be boys."
---Texs W.

Good for you....that's the way it should be.
But would you rather have the teacher come to you and your husband alone, or have your kids smeared and their sanity called into question because of a poor choice of writing material? That's the question you're posing.
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
RW:
Since when has age been a factor in mitigating stupidity?


The general consensus (from the males at least) on this thread is that because these kids were only 17 and 18 (old enough for military service!), that a death threat is benign or something to laugh off.

I disagree. It's completely inappropriate, and particularly for someone old enough to begin independent life as an adult. It should not be treated as a childish prank.

who was no doubt required, as part of her studies, to take Psychology, which shold have helped her assess their journals as "threats" or simply idiotic, juvenile behavior


English teachers are not trained Psychologists.

Yes, I blame the teacher because she could have called them in and had a little talk with them. That could have ended the whole thing. Instead, she played into the whole "mass hysteria" thing.


A) I don't think it would be prudent for the teacher to confront the students who wrote the death threats. Her safety should have been a concern.

B) I feel that it was appropriate for her to report it to higher levels. A specific and graphic threat against her is not something that should be shrugged off. That's not hysteria. That's holding these young men accountable for their actions and providing for her safety.
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top
That gets you an insightful!
---Dr. Guy

Thanks. I'm reading a book by Michael Savage, and it's got me all fired up!
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
But would you rather have the teacher come to you and your husband alone, or have your kids smeared and their sanity called into question because of a poor choice of writing material? That's the question you're posing.


Honestly, I would want them to understand the consequences, so yes, I would expect the teacher to report it to the school administration, and the authorities, if they felt it was warranted.

It would suck, and it would hurt, but it's much better for them to learn that lesson when the stakes aren't so high (and I don't consider sitting on the bench at a football game or school suspension high stakes).

The whole "my baby could NEVER do anything like that!" head-in-the-sand kind of parenting may feel good to the kids and the parents, but it teaches the kids that they can get away with anything and mommy and daddy will just sweep it under the rug.

If my kids have to hurt or be embarrassed in order to grow up to be stable, law-abiding men, then I will allow them to be hurt and embarrassed.
Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
English teachers are not trained Psychologists.
--Tex W.

But Psycology DOES come into play every day in their teaching careers and is thusly required as a means to help them deal with their students. They may not be "trained" psychologists per se, but in order to become a teacher in most states, you have to have it.



A) I don't think it would be prudent for the teacher to confront the students who wrote the death threats. Her safety should have been a concern.
---Tex W.

This, then, begs the question "how well does she know her students"?
Let's do a little profiling; how many of the school "shooter-uppers" were jocks?
Most, if not all of them, were the nerdy (yes, I know....poor word choice, but it applies, at least from the jock's perspective) "victims" of the jock clique's bullying or other hazing. Jocks are joiners; social creatures. The "shooter-uppers" were all loners and brooders. And I never even HAD a Psycology class.

It's a shame.....I very well remember a time when students were afraid of the teachers, not the other way around.



A specific and graphic threat against her is not something that should be shrugged off.


I have to give you this one. But then, she shouldn't have nade the promise she made. She did. She should have called in the parents and talked it over with them.
Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
The turn of this discussion is sickening. Writing a scenario in a diary isn't a "threat". They probably just wrote this specifically because they were told no one would read it. I used to embed awful little statements in our daily reports in high school because I knew the teacher didn't read them, then we'd all laugh once I got it back with an 'A' on it.

They were told that no one would read their diary. I'm sick of this pig mind-raping standard, "Wait, they could be dangerous because of what they wrote on a piece of paper" bullshit, frankly. There shouldn't be "consequences" to self-expression. There shouldn't be some f*cking mental health standard that people's material should be compared to to see if they are fit.

People go out an pay cash for Steven King books full of sick violence, they watch courtTV with rapt attention, eating up every blood spatter and arterial spray, and two kids make a silly entry into a diary because they are told someone will read it and suddenly it is a threat. Maybe the threat is all the CSI, forensics bullshit making us a culture fascinated by mental sickness and murder.

If kids artistic expression starts to mirror adult artistic expression, should you be threatened? Lets take the writers of half the shows on TV and call them a "threat".
Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
The whole "my baby could NEVER do anything like that!" head-in-the-sand kind of parenting may feel good to the kids and the parents, but it teaches the kids that they can get away with anything and mommy and daddy will just sweep it under the rug.


Very true.....we could raise kids together! They might grow up to be Moderates.


If my kids have to hurt or be embarrassed in order to grow up to be stable, law-abiding men, then I will allow them to be hurt and embarrassed.


Hurt and embarrassed is one thing....having their records permanently marked for a stupidly-chosen and exectuted prank is quite another.
Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top
Writing a scenario in a diary isn't a "threat". They probably just wrote this specifically because they were told no one would read it. I used to embed awful little statements in our daily reports in high school because I knew the teacher didn't read them, then we'd all laugh once I got it back with an 'A' on it.
---Baker

Precisely. We used to do the same thing. Dr. Guy used to sing the song I mentioned. Nothing new under the sun, is there?




They were told that no one would read their diary. I'm sick of this pig mind-raping standard, "Wait, they could be dangerous because of what they wrote on a piece of paper" bullshit, frankly. There shouldn't be "consequences" to self-expression. There shouldn't be some f*cking mental health standard that people's material should be compared to to see if they are fit.

People go out an pay cash for Steven King books full of sick violence, they watch courtTV with rapt attention, eating up every blood spatter and arterial spray, and two kids make a silly entry into a diary because they are told someone will read it and suddenly it is a threat. Maybe the threat is all the CSI, forensics bullshit making us a culture fascinated by mental sickness and murder.
--Baker

Well said.