Zero Tolerance is Zero Intelligence

A Promise is a Promise

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/02/student.threats.ap/index.html
from JoeUser Forums

2 students in Orange Co. California are facing expulsion for taking a teacher at her word.  The teacher assigned a project where the students were to keep a journal with the understanding that no one would read it   (except her for grading).  Instead the teacher read somethings and decided to let others read them as well.  And the students were suspended and are awaiting an expulsion hearing.

Why?  Well, in their journals, they talked about torturing and killing a teacher.  From the little snippets that the article revealed, it appears that they were just being stupid adolescents, and trying to one up each other on what they thought was a funny scenario.  All with the expectation of the journal not being read per the promise of the teacher.  But she broke her promise.

And in the zero tolerance of the post Columbine mentality of schools, these students are being punished not for anything they did (or you could say for doing what hey were told, but I digress), but for believing the word of an adult.

In this stupidity that passes for education today, they ignatzes don't even realize the damage they have done, not only to these 2 students, but to their own reputations.  No longer can any student trust the word of a teacher.  All teachers are suspect, and should be regarded as only telling the truth, when it suits them, and not when it is the right thing to do.  And that is the lesson the teachers are not only teaching these 2 students, but the entire student body.  Wow!  What Nobel prize winning candidates!

When are these mental midgets going to learn that actions speak louder than words?  And when you leave reason at the school door, the only thing you are teaching the students is to never trust people in authority.  For they will always let you down?  It requires no intelligence to enforce a zero tolerance policy where a spork becomes an expulsion offense.  And the trust that the teachers are supposed to be trying to create with their student is gone. 

I am glad most of my children are out of school.  I pray that the remaining 2 will not be saddled with mental midgets in their last few years. But my grandchildren will have to spend a school career with a bunch of mind numbed robots that cant think for themselves and that my grandchildren can never trust for anything.  Not even legitimate school work.

It is a sad day in education, not because of 2 over hormonal jocks who may have to seek a new school, but for the millions of school children that just learned a valuable lesson.  Never trust a teacher.  Hire a lawyer and get them to sign an unbreakable contract.

The Legal professions stock just doubled, thanks to idiots in education.

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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Poldark Maximus hates gray areas as much as the next pundit, but some notable issues at play here.
1) Written school papers submitted for grading become the property of the school, not the students. No materials submitted in the course of class work ever need to be returned to the student.
2) No teacher can make such a commitment. This is a good matter for parents and teachers to review at PTA meetings.
3) Privacy laws (and lack of privacy) extend into the scool environment. Great training for later life --- you commit something to paper, a verbal recording --- grief, even a BLOG!!-- and it is no longer a matter of private record. The boys will no doubt be sour for years to come, but Poldark MAximus would bet his last drachma that they will think long and hard about matters of their personal privacy now and forever. And that is not a bad thing. A certain amount of distrust will bode them well in the future.
4) And then there is the First Amendment that does protect the individual who screams "fire!!!" in a crowded theatre.
5) Or makes bomb jokes while checking in bagage pre-flight.
6) Or writes about torturing and killing a teacher in a school assigned essay.
Hope the boys get over it, but never forget it. www.poldarkmaximus.com
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

1) Written school papers submitted for grading become the property of the school, not the students. No materials submitted in the course of class work ever need to be returned to the student.

No one is contesting that.  Did you read the article?

2) No teacher can make such a commitment

Then the teacher, the person in  authority, who the students should be looking up to with respect, Lied. Period.  Either way she lied.

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I just don't know here. How stupid are those boys? They knew she would read it. They knew she would see it and question their possible actions. How could they not?

I think these boys will learn a good lesson here and it wont be one of trust. I think they will learn the deffinition of a threat.

Their intentions may have been benign but if the teacher thought someone was in danger, she did the right thing. The big questions would be ... What exactly did they write? How many different ways could their statements be interpreted?
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

I just don't know here. How stupid are those boys? They knew she would read it. They knew she would see it and question their possible actions. How could they not?

You were that age once (as was I), in answer to your first question, very!  We all were then.  Yes they knew she would read it, but no one else according to her promise to them.  She did not confront them, but then took it to others to read.  Perhaps she should have confronted them.  Or honored her commitment.

The lesson here is "Dont trust those in power. They lie to you.".

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Okay - what if the teacher says nothing and the boys come to school with guns. Did she shirk her responsibility by not questioning their seriousness?

If someone tells you something in confidence and you believe they are going to hurt themselves or someone else, do you break that confidence?

This isn't an easy question. Yes, ideally the teacher would have spoken to them privately and assessed whether they were playing or serious but in todays CYA society, it's better to pass the buck and relieve yourself of that responsibility of making the wrong judgement call.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Teachers are also mandated reporters. Wouldn't the teacher in question be liable if these two boys actually DID carry out these acts?

Basically the teacher would be screwed if she did, screwed if she didn't and something happened. It's a double standard. What the heck do you want me to do? You want me to call CPS if a child has a bruise, but not even call a parent if they write in their journal that they want to slit someone's throat? That makes no sense.

She should have discussed it with them, yes. But kids are good actors, too, you know? "I didn't really mean I was going to kill Mr. Johnson...I was just gonna let the air out of his tires for fun. He he."
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sorry...double post...JU messed up.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Perhaps she should have confronted them.


That begs the question. If they were serious, what action might they have taken at that confrontation.

I have first hand experience dealing with a mentaly disturbed child. All they need is a catalyst and boom. I think the teacher was right here. She let someone else make that decision.

I wonder is she shared the other student's journals.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

Okay - what if the teacher says nothing and the boys come to school with guns. Did she shirk her responsibility by not questioning their seriousness?

What if they never wrote it and came into school with guns?

We have gotten so friggin lawsuit happy that we are willing to betray trusts, destroy relationships, compromise our students education - because once every 10 year some kid in some state goes bonkers.  So we protect 5 people, and destroy millions of kids due to the lies, deceits and hypocrisy of Zero Tolerance.

The first mistake was the teacher lie, but it was not the last one.  The next one was the zero tolerance.  Did the kids ever get a chance to tell their side, other than in court?  Nope!  Zero tolerance and they were gone.  Zero Tolerance = Zero Intelligence.

Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
We have gotten so friggin lawsuit happy that we are willing to betray trusts, destroy relationships, compromise our students education - because once every 10 year some kid in some state goes bonkers. So we protect 5 people, and destroy millions of kids due to the lies, deceits and hypocrisy of Zero Tolerance.


Then that is a societal issue. Not a "what a retarded teacher" issue. I doubt that she was doing this to get the kids in trouble, or was worried that this would make them think that people in authorities are liars. It's about the safety of the students and staff at this school. The kids made a really stupid choice. It's not like we grow up somewhere killing is funny and harassment is okay. These kids *know* better. There's a difference between a silly kid prank like putting plastic wrap on the toilet seat and something that could be construed as threatening--writing "funnies" about torture and killing. They know that trigger words like "terrorize" or "bomb" or something are likely going to grab attention and cause concern. They're the new "swear" words--and you just don't say them in public unless you want the CIA at your door asking questions.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, the kids were obviously dumb to do such a thing in the first place. After all, they attend school in today's world, and know first-hand of the restrictions and rules.
The teacher, though, is the one with the most contact with the boys in question. She, in my mind would have been the one better to assess the "threat" they posed, based on her everyday contact with them. Are they normally jokers and macho jocks, who might write something like this on a whim? Or are they of the "trenchcoat Mafia" strain, or perhaps Goth freaks who brood and listen to too much Marilyn Manson. Not that those are particularly the "kind" who do school violence, but they do seem to fit the general stereotype.
She should have been able to make the judgement call here, and talk to them one-on-one, without involving anyone else. She did break her word.

Zero Tolerance is just stupid, though. Has such a policy EVER actually been shown to save lives? It simply releases the organization, business or school from any responsiblity. It also releases them from having to think for themselves and use common sense.
I once read about a girl who was sent home from school because she was using drugs. The "drugs" she had were two Extra Strength Tylenol, given to her by her mother, because she had a bad toothache.
Another kid was prevented from attending his Kindergarten's Halloween Party (so sorry....please make that "Fall Festival") because, dressed as a fireman, he was carrying a plastic axe. Insane.

Let's also not forget that we ARE talking about California here; the Left Coast.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
If they were serious, what action might they have taken at that confrontation.


Probably nothing. If they were serious, would they have written their "plans" in a school essay, which they knew beyond doubt would be read by an authority figure?
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Probably nothing. If they were serious, would they have written their "plans" in a school essay, which they knew beyond doubt would be read by an authority figure?


"IF" is the word of the day. "IF". How do you know? "Probably" doesn't cut it when you're a teacher and someone says something like that. You're saying that "Probably" nothing would have happened, but if something did, and the teacher said nothing because of trust and confidentiality issues, you'd "probably" be the first to blame her, right?
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
This thread reminds me of a song we used to sing when I was kid in school (maybe 4th, 5th or 6th grade), which our teachers laughed about:

Ahem.

(To the tune of "Battle Hymn of the Republic")

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of
the school.

We have tortured all the teachers,
We have broken every rule.

And when we all come back next year,
We'll get the principal.

And I forget the chorus.

I wonder how quickly we'd be expelled today for celebrating in song such violence and hate? How long we'd be court-ordered to spend in therapy?
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
I wonder how quickly we'd be expelled today for celebrating in song such violence and hate? How long we'd be court-ordered to spend in therapy?


lol...I understand where you're coming from. Don't get me wrong. I think its a shame that we have to be so up in arms over such silly things... But it's a fact of life in America today, you know?
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
"IF". How do you know?


I don't, but I know that if you catch a criminal in the act of committing a crime, he's more than likely going to run. If confronted with their plans by someone in authority, they might just have spilled it all, if they HAD been planning anything.

"If" is a big word, and you can't live your life in fear of it. "If" this happens....or that. What if it doesn't? Then what?
These two kids have been smeared, pretty much for life, because of an "If" that wasn't tempered with common sense.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
"If" is a big word, and you can't live your life in fear of it. "If" this happens....or that. What if it doesn't? Then what?
These two kids have been smeared, pretty much for life, because of an "If" that wasn't tempered with common sense.


I agree that we can't live our lives in fear. I just think that we need to watch where we place the blame here. This is a SOCIETAL issue. Not an issue with the school or the teacher. Don't you think that other parents would be having TIZZIES if these students would be allowed to continue their educations at this school?

They're not going to be "smeared" for life, either. They're going to go to another school, graduate, and go to college just like any other student. The fact of the matter is that our actions have consequences, whether we're able to see them or not. Was this more than likely a "silly" type of a thing? Yes. Of course. You and I both know that. But a few rotten apples spoil the barrel, right? The few families who would freak out over something like this make it the way it has to be. It's really a double standard. Don't they suck?
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the issue is that she lied to them and told them there would be no repercussions from what they wrote. She said they wouldn't be read.

The policy is meaningless in terms of what they did or didn't do, the problem is she baited them into breaking said policy. She should have told them honestly that what they wrote would be read, and then they wouldn't have written what they did.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

Teachers are also mandated reporters. Wouldn't the teacher in question be liable if these two boys actually DID carry out these acts?

Basically the teacher would be screwed if she did, screwed if she didn't and something happened. It's a double standard.

That may be,  but then she put herself into that position.  And the fact that they did not even investigate this, and still have not, indicates what morons they are.  It is not like these kids live in a vacuum like the columbine ones did.  Instead of INVESTIGATING, they chose to blindly follow their stupid policy.

That is the issue.  The betrayal, and the lack of any intelligence on the responsible people.

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sorry...double post...JU messed up.
 
JU is messing up.  When you post, you get a timed out message, but it posts.  So for everyone, hit submit and then go back and do a refresh.  Your message should be there.  I will delete the rest (it has gotten me as well).
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
That begs the question. If they were serious, what action might they have taken at that confrontation.

I have first hand experience dealing with a mentaly disturbed child. All they need is a catalyst and boom. I think the teacher was right here. She let someone else make that decision.

I wonder is she shared the other student's journals.
 
In a controlled environment (she would be stupid to confront them in a back alley)?  Common!  are we talking idiots (apparently) or responsible adults that can set a stage?  I dont buy the incompetance routine.
 
And yes, in every 100,000 incidences, something will go wrong.  You have a better chance of getting creamed by a school bus.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

Then that is a societal issue. Not a "what a retarded teacher" issue.

The retarded teacher issue (and you are the first to use the term) is that she either lied to them or betrayed them. AND the title of this article.  Zero Tolerance equals Zero Intelligence.  A trained monkey could do what those teachers and administrators did.

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

[quote]Zero Tolerance is just stupid, though. Has such a policy EVER actually been shown to save lives? It simply releases the organization, business or school from any responsiblity. It also releases them from having to think for themselves and use common sense.

Exactly half my point!  The other half is the betrayal of trust and such!

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the issue is that she lied to them and told them there would be no repercussions from what they wrote.


I was told this same lie from grade school through college whenever I was asked to write a journal. The Teacher/Professor simply wants to pull the inner thoughts out of the student. What's that song "dance like nobody's watching..."? Even when they said spill it, I never put anything in there I wasn't comfortable with (which was a lot).

I agree zero tolerance is not such a great thing but we are looking at a different student than we were 20 years ago. I think zero tolerance is a way to put a blanket policy on the rules that turns the school in to Gestapo land unless you happen to be particularly well liked.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

Probably nothing. If they were serious, would they have written their "plans" in a school essay, which they knew beyond doubt would be read by an authority figure?

Thank you for that breath of sanity!