Autumn, people who buy Stardock products will still get unlimited downloads on WinCustomize. That's been stated before, I believe. No use in people paying twice...

The people affected by the changes will mainly be the 'visitors' and the people who sign up for WinCustomize (but DONT have a subscription).

Autumn, people who buy Stardock products will still get unlimited downloads on WinCustomize. That's been stated before, I believe. No use in people paying twice...

I'm not worried about that so much as the fact that I'm not so sure that a good number of artists won't decide to not upload their free work to WC. That would result in WC losing its utility for SD customers.

What would be the solution then? Give artists "subscriptions" too? Who gets to be counted as an artist? Certainly not just everyone who uploads here (e.g. screenshots).. what about people who make really bad/useless skins? Or about people who do really nice work but are porters of msstyles and don't make their own WB skins?

I uploaded two Christmas-style OD themes a few years ago, but I certainly don't consider myself an artist.

Hmm, you have a good point about that. It wouldnt be right to keep actual artists from downloading if they didnt have a subscription, but then again, if they are creating skins, they most likely have purchased the programs they are skinning for...

Perhaps a 'choke point' of downloads, such as 1000, should be required... Just for reference, I wasnt able to download for 2.5 months between the time my 50 megabytes were exceeded and I purchased ObjectDesktop. Since I was skinning media player, I didnt need to own any Stardock products to do that, so I couldnt download.

I'm sure contributors to the site will be able to download, it only fair to receive if you have given

The problem is the massive amount of traffic vs the number of people who have purchased/contributed something. The site should be restricted to the latter, so they are the ones who benefit from the site.

Autmnmist - you don't need to have a WC subscription to get skins. As has been mentioned by others, WB skins etc can be found from lots of other sites. We happen to think the best ones are here and certainly it's easier to get high quality stuff here than to check any number of other sites but you're not obligated.

As I understand it (and the solution I'm in favor of), a WC subscription would be required to download the skins here. The skins would still be free, just as they are at all those other sites. The subcription would be required to pay for the site costs and the subscriber pays for the privilage (let's not forget that it is a privilage, not a right) to download the stuff stored on Stardock's servers.

As someone stated above, just because you bought the car doesn't mean the gas is going to be free. Neither are the roads when you think about it.

The skins are free (like in free speech, not in free beer ) work of the respective authors. If they upload it for free, I download them for free. Whether on WC or other places. If there won't be free sites, I won't download them. This is what I thought when bought OD.

I suppose anyone who feels this way will piss someone off. And to those of you read this, I know you will read my profile just to see if "I" am a freeloader also. Go ahead and then come back........AND??

Personally, the way I see it: If I did not subscibe here (being a customer/OD subscriber) I would get upset if y'all berated me. I was basically told being a customer and OD subscriber I was more than welcome to come get stuff. Seems to me part of my OD subscription should be applied here. I do not feel obligated to subscribe here since to me this place is part of Stardock - I subscribe here because I want to.

Ditto.... Sir Bichur......

i could see not being able do download extra skins unless subsribed, but how would this affect the wb shareware program..it at least gives you a few skins to try out..will this remain free or will it be droped? with the release of 5.0 nearby, will it be available as the previous versions or will it be restricted to subscribers only? i would like to subscribe but i dont have a credit card and wondered if others had that kind of problem? also i like to come here to read forums and offer opinions on occasion not to download a bunch of skins..how will this be affected?

I did not mention skinners in my 1st post because 1) I consider all skinners here an integeral part of the site. If y'all didn't exist this site and others would not either. 2) being a nonskinner my only contribution is through my subscription and I have no idea how to work the skinner contribution vs access/download. One the one hand...free reign for the skinners on the other hand...what's to stop someone from uploading pure crap just snag downloads? on the good hand how to separate the crap for downloads vs 'I'm still learning and honestly trying'?

There is one thing I am sure about: I'm glad the headache is not mine.

It's freeloaders like you I can't leave this unanswered. All I'm asking you is to read at least this comment. To start with: According to todays official policies I'm rather an appreciated community member, a level 4 user, than a freeloader. (Level 4: Current Stardock customer. These are users who have either purchased Object Desktop Network or some other Stardock product (Stardock is WinCustomize's sponser) within the last 2 years. These users get all the benefits of a registered user plus: * Unlimited File Downloads. Say good-bye to file limitations! No more annoying messages preventing you from getting your download to work.) Kind words. No bad languange. Then: In my comments I'm writing arguments why I think mandatory subscription is a wrong solution. Admitting that operating such a site must cost a fortune. In return I get answers like: You're sucking the blood of the community, get lost. Furthermore: I write, that I'm paying for the applications, and I'm stating that authors upload their work for free. (By means that THEY won't get paid.) In return I get answers like: Why do you think bandwidth and servers are free? You don't appreciate us. Then: I write that if I MUST subscribe for 20USD to download skins, I guess I rather consider stopping paying 50USD to renew my OD subscription, and I ask whether this is not a bigger threat by introducing such a new policy. In return I get answers like: we will have to shut down the site because of you, shame on you. And of course there are the always shiny happy people like: it's nice to join a community, I subscribe every 3 months. Which is their business. To be serious, I myself feel fed up wit the "go away you parasite, you won't get anything for free" comments, without getting a single comment on my arguments. I don't even know what am I doing here, this is not funny at all. I beg for a relevant comment on my arguments from "the other side". Finally forgive my poor english, I'd check back for answers before leaving wincustomize. BRGDS ethsza

ethsza  "it's freeloaders like you" was probably an unfortunate comment.  It should have been aimed at an attitude to freely obtaining site content, and not to you, personally/specifically, so on behalf of the Wincustomize team please accept our apology.

Stardock customers ARE benefitting/contributing to the site, but what is needed is the site itself to effectively cover its OWN costs of existence....to make it self-sustaining/perpetuating....independent of and not dependent upon financial support from ANY outside source other than its own members.

Now, mostly the skinners/uploaders have absolutely no issue with the reality that hosting their works costs money and the most logical solution is 'user pays'....in other words, he who downloads content from this site needs to pay to do so.

This works in EXACTLY the same way that a car owner must buy tyres and petrol each time they are needed/wanted....even AFTER already buying the car itself.  The Stardock software, just like the car does not come with an endless supply of 'consumables'.....at least, they SHOULDN'T.

Currently, the Wincustomize socio-economic model has people being 'rewarded' with full access to content thanks to their own 'contribution/s', be that subscription, Current SD Customer, or skinner/site contributor [the latter through promotion 'level'].

All this is well and good, except not enough of the 3 million visitors are in one of these categories.  They 'contribute' nothing to the site's commercial viability.......YET.

The Status Quo [not the group] needs to change.  It should NOT be about current contributors buying more frequent subs...or ones for others as gifts. 

It SHOULD be about each and every site visitor's willingness to support the site and contribute by paying for that which he is so eager to receive.

If he won't do that without a push then there needs must be a push.....one that cannot be side-stepped...

but how would this affect the wb shareware program.

oh crap. another issue.

timed trial with no restrictions and a partial subscript to go with it?

you download and install...box pops up and registers you for 30 or 60 days here.

I USE, THEREFORE I PAY!
It only seems appropriate to me.

timed trial with no restrictions and a partial subscript to go with it?

Why not release full-blown timed version with a half dozen good skins and no download ability. It is just to try out after all.

For non-customers/subscribers have a portal page linked to the stardock site that diplays the current top skins from each section. Give them FULL access to the screenshot section. That's the best advertising area on the site.

Contributors should get access to forums and ratings and maybe some kind of download ability commensurat with the amount their skins are downloaded.

ok ... lets put it like this .. Stardock customers .. get full acess to the site .. but do not get "WC subscriber extras" like the private WC suites/skins...subscribers get full acess plus the WC extras..

this I believe will remain the same..

im gathering that the non paying part of the community , are the ones who will be getting the brunt of the changes...

I actually cant see how a person who has not purchased WB can actually skin it effectively."theres parts of the shareware that are disabled"

BUT however IMO if a non paying individual uploads a skin then they should be able to download a percentage of their uploads total..something to the effect of if their skin is downloaded 500 times in a day then they should get like 25 meg of download off the site.(this is just a rough estimate to give an example) .. that way those who actually try to contribute in other ways aren't left out in the cold.....

if a non paying individual uploads a skin then they should be able to download a percentage of their uploads total

That is an interesting idea (and it solves the whole issue of who gets to decide which "artists" get full access and which don't). Though it also opens up the potential for determined freeloaders to upload a skin and download it themselves through multiple accounts a number of times or upload a few skins and download it themselves.

Though it also opens up the potential for determined freeloaders to upload a skin and download it themselves through multiple accounts a number of times or upload a few skins and download it themselves.

it wouldnt be hard to track offenders .. I believe they already can see whos doing what by ip adress...

I guess I would have to say that all should endeavor to subscribe to WC if they hang here and download here.

We also need to realize that the $20 for a WC subscription and $50 for OD is worth every penny, but there are those who simply cannot afford that kind of money. Groceries need to come before computer stuff. I have been there. ...and then there are those who have the money but will not part from it. The former should not be berated for their lack of funds. We as members should do what we can to help them belong. The latter is a typical breed in this world and they should cough it up if they care at all about this site.

That being said, if someone debates the pro's and con's of subscriptions, we do not know their financial situation. I would suggest that we err on the side of compassion instead of judgement. ...and the members should step up and help a brother out from time to time. It's as simple as pushing a couple of buttons and subscribing for another.

The Status Quo [not the group] needs to change. It should NOT be about current contributors buying more frequent subs...or ones for others as gifts. It SHOULD be about each and every site visitor's willingness to support the site and contribute by paying for that which he is so eager to receive

Understood. But every little bit helps, right? I guess in dealing with the masses there needs to be rules such as these, and I am all for it. It does not negate my feelings in post 66.

SD you are a very kind and generous person ..

All I can say is that I would have a VERY hard time justifying paying $60 for ObjectDesktop when I wouldn't have any skins to use it with unless I paid an extra $20 for Wincustomize! I

As an ObjectDesktop subscriber, you would have access to downloads on WC....the d/l restrictions would not apply to you in that instance. A Wincustomize subscription has additional benifits, such as access to premium content and a personal page within the site, but that could come at a later date if you can't afford both subs at once. So if you want ObjectDesktop to grace your machine and enhance your computing experience, go ahead and get it.

Anyone else having problems with forum pages loading? The post I just replied to appeared to me as the last entry, but when my comment was added there were several others in between

I would suggest that we err on the side of compassion instead of judgement. ...and the members should step up and help a brother out from time to time. It's as simple as pushing a couple of buttons and subscribing for another.

I really MUST stress....

This is a noble sentiment.....very much so...to finance another's membership...and cannot be praised highly enough.

Everyone will appreciate the generosity, not just the recipient but the site as a whole....

If only such positive community attitude was a contagion...

SD you are a very kind and generous person

I will second that!!

And perhaps we could look at WinCustomize as a public (to this community) library of skins. Most communities have public libraries, funded by public money, collected in the form of taxes, right? So here we have a community with a public library, and it should be funded by public money. Where does the money come from? The community. What defines the community? Members who contribute.

There would be no issue if WC could be run for free. It can't, and those who can pay but won't, believing they should have access for free (subsidized by others) need to grow up.

I would suggest that we err on the side of compassion instead of judgement. ...and the members should step up and help a brother out from time to time. It's as simple as pushing a couple of buttons and subscribing for another.

Extremely well said!

If only such positive community attitude was a contagion...

It needs to be!

I have a very optimistic feeling that come November 1st, 2005 we're going to see a lot of positive changes. Of which, will effect the non-subscribers in a negative way, but not everything in life can be free.

There are too many people on the internet that just get on for the simple purpose of leeching. Whether it be skins, software or other. In this day and age it can be very easy and very tempting to leech. But, sites such as this one can be the starting point and "big brother" and limit access to those who wish to leech.

I myself wouldn't mind seeing the site revamped in a big way. Perhaps, it would be best to make it a "registered user" site only. Those with subscription of course, would have unlimited access and downloads as they do now. Those who register an account (and only 1 account, none of that multiple accounts stuff) should have a "restricted access" level and have 30-60 days to decide to subscribe. This would allow those considering to subscribe to have the chance to see what's offered in limited format.

To avoid those that wish to just make multiple accounts, the "limited access" would help that by just preventing them entirely from the "subscriber content" so if you had 12 unsubscribed accounts it wouldn't matter, you'd get all the same stuff anyways. Perhaps an email address validation would help as well.

Whatever happens it needs to be as I've suggested. I have no authority here but my suggestion would stop leechers in their tracks and also add the versatility to the non-subscriber (but registered) to decide if they want to subscribe by seeing the limited (but great) content they have access to. If you'd really want to be picky show them all content but of course add the "subscribe now" button to download whatever specific content.

Those who say Stardock and Wincustomize have leeched off of the artists are idiots. (No offense). Many of the artists with any "credible" content are subscribers themselves and probably half of those numbers have gotten their subscription by the skinning contests or being an employee.

In closing, If you want to leech, don't come to Wincustomize after October 31st. Because I doubt you'll be happy with your access levels and content available to you. There are plenty of "leech friendly" skinning sites and you're leeching is unwanted here.

If you are a registered or non-registered user and still can't justify the subscription despite seeing it's benefits. Then you haven't been paying attention to the forums or you're just caught up in your own leeching methods to care.

If anything, don't even get a subscription for the community. Get it for the benefits you'll wreek of for the next year.