Reply By: Dr. GuyPosted: Friday, October 21, 2005Actually, removing tax exempt status from churches should NOT be against the first amendment. Amendment 1 doesn't guarantee tax exempt status for your speech.No, but it would then give the government 'control' of religion. The IRS is a terror now. I would not want it to start jumping in on religions. It is a fine line. Between control and separation. I hope it is not crossed.

as soon as the government starts to make laws or rules about any church they have crossed over into a pairing of church and state.

Because they each think theirs is the best; the only true religion.

Who is the they?  Is it me?  You?  MM?

#28 by Dr. Guy Friday, October 21, 2005

Because they each think theirs is the best; the only true religion. Who is the they? Is it me? You? MM?

I think icon is painting with a very broad brush doc, I personally do not think my religion is the only way to GOD.

How about you doc>?

think icon is painting with a very broad brush doc, I personally do not think my religion is the only way to GOD.

I definately agree with you on this too Elie. Neither is mine. Unfortunately I've gotta run and won't be able to say more on this right now. But great discussion!

#30 by foreverserenity Friday, October 21, 2005

think icon is painting with a very broad brush doc, I personally do not think my religion is the only way to GOD. I definitely agree with you on this too Elie. Neither is mine. Unfortunately I've gotta run and won't be able to say more on this right now. But great discussion!

peace sistah! run slowly and under no circumstances run with scissors.

Because they each think theirs is the best; the only true religion.

Jews and Christians seem to get along quite nicely these days.

Christianity and Islam do believe that their is the only true religion and that everybody should follow it. But Christians have not forced anybody to agree with them for centuries. It is possible to get along, and we do it.

The only religion currently very active in the west and thinking of itself as the only true religion is atheism.

Reply By: LeaukiPosted: Friday, October 21, 2005Because they each think theirs is the best; the only true religion.Jews and Christians seem to get along quite nicely these days.Christianity and Islam do believe that their is the only true religion and that everybody should follow it. But Christians have not forced anybody to agree with them for centuries. It is possible to get along, and we do it.The only religion currently very active in the west and thinking of itself as the only true religion is atheism.

I feel sorry for anyone that shallow, to believe that there way is the only way. How ignorant and in its own way bigoted.

Because they each think theirs is the best; the only true religion.

This is a possible intellectual objection to religion, but hardly a coherent reason for 'eliminating' it (sinister word!)

but how does that effect you personally if I think only a jew is the right religion?

excellent question!

Who is the they? Is it me? You? MM?

as is this!

As to my own take on the 'only true religion' stance: if you accept that there is a spiritual dimension to life, then ultimately we have to answer the great questions for ourselves. 'Knowledge' can be found in books and the words of others, 'wisdom' comes when we have made it our own and can live by it.

However, there is a certain wisdom in getting together with others currently on a similar path, as well as tapping into the wisdom of those who have trod the path before. That's where 'organised religion' comes into it.

Now are all these religions or paths equally 'true' (or equally false?) or is there a 'true religion' and a number of false ones? This question is not so easy to answer as it may seem.

If you argue that they are all false, no problem. You've found a solution that works for you and you can just leave the discussion now.

If you argue that they are all equally true - which in our kinder, gentler way we are often inclined to do nowadays - then why follow any particular religion? It makes little sense to even bother to be, say, a christian, when Hinduism or Islam can get you to the same place.

If you argue that only one religion is the true one, how do you know that you have made the right choice? (I mean really know, not somehow feel).

My own personal take is that this can only be answered by a logical paradox, to simultaneously believe that my religion is the best that there is - better than all the others (otherwise why bother with it?) - and to believe, with equal sincerity - that all the rest are just as good. Not easy.

---

Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said 'one ca'n't believe impossible things.'
'I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast...'
Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking Glass"

I'll get jumped all over for this, but what the heck. LOL.

I'm one of those narrow minded Christians who believes that there is one way to God. Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth and the life. NO MAN comes to the Father except through Me." As a firm believer that the Bible is the holy inspired Word of God, I'd say that clarifies it for me. I'd be betraying my Christian heritage and complete belief system if I were to accept anything less. You won't find me touting the praises of Universalism. I know that seems harsh, and it's unpopular... but it doesn't negate what I believe to be truth. If I sincerely believe that those who don't put their trust in Christ are going to Hell, how loving is it of me to keep silent and smile, saying, "Oh... whatever you think is best... whatever works for you... go for it." Yeah. Step right into that ditch and I'll watch you. That's love. Not.

While this is what I believe - that there is ONE way - I will not force anyone else to believe one way or another. It's not "Yahweh or the Highway" as far as our friendship is concerned. *g* The beauty of living in this country is that we are free to follow whatever religion we desire to. I won't slam you for believing differently (although from time to time I will point out the differences). I will, however, pray for you. With or without your permission. Not because I want to score points by winning you over, but because I truly care about your eternal destination.

I feel sorry for anyone that shallow, to believe that there way is the only way. How ignorant and in its own way bigoted.

Nope. Disagree wholeheartedly. Forcing other people to convert to your views, sure. But believing that your religion is the only possible way is about the only possible conclusion you can have and logically follow any religion.

To begin with, how can you validate belief in your religion and others when most claim to be the only true one. Do you just ignore that part as inconvenient? You can't reconcile "I am the way, the truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Me." with free acceptance of the possibilites that others may have equally valid faiths.

Or how about creation theory? Can you say, yeah I believe that God created the world and man in seven days, made Adam out of the dirt, etc, and say I think that also, Man was created by Zeus after the Titans, and the world follows the old Hindu legend of being carried on the backs of four elephants standing on a turtle. Religions clash.

Saying they are all, or even saying that others are equally valid is another way of saying "what I believe is not very important." Is it something you believe and try to live? Or is it just a loose bundle of rituals and altruistic morals that help you feel comfortable with your lifestyle and ethical background?

In what I think is a particularly holy phrase, "Shit or get off the pot."
-2nd book of Excrements Ch.5 vs.2-

And p.s. I do agree with the main body of your article. I think that many Americans are incensed with almost any set of religious based morals and Christianity in particular.

It interferes with the I'm okay, you're okay, don't you dare judge me lifestyle. People that live what they like to think of as pleasure filled Bohemian lifestyles (even if they don't call it that) are inevitably enraged at the idea of absolute morality. Yet Christianity shows an unchanging God and sin that doesn't change to suit the fad of the times.

That was insanely long, but it's a long idea, and complex. It's important though. For example, I'm not about to start a pogrom or a holocaust to support my ideas, that would be insane and every bit as bigoted as you suggest.

Yet do you really think it's possible to say, "ah....maybe Jesus was the Messiah, maybe he's still coming, meh" Or who knows, maybe the Satanists have got the right idea? I don't think it's bigotted to pick one and think you're right. You might be wrong, but biggoted? Nah. Only if you decide to hate the people from the other religions.

Possibly the dark ages again

You mean when the Church controlled all aspects of life and Islamic nations were at the forefront of science?

Christians have not forced anybody to agree with them for centuries.

Yes, the problems in Yugoslavia were purely politically based. Oh, and the purges of native tribes in South America by settlers with support of both the military and the clergy was all about the perfect fruit. And the native residential schools in Canada was mostly about hockey.

The only religion currently very active in the west and thinking of itself as the only true religion is atheism.

Really? Then why are there missionaries and other forms of proselytizing? Are they claiming, "Join my equally valid religion and get more frequent flyer points when you die?"

#36 by Spc Nobody Special

#37 by Spc Nobody Special

While I probably don't share his religious views, these two posts are the first coherent ones in this thread.

How about vegans, who think their diet is the only one true healthy and humane way to eat?

But they think everyone else will probably die off soon anyways.

admit you're just blowing verbal chunks of poo in an effort to get a rise out of your intellectual superiors.

It obviously hasn't worked.

Reply By: ChakgogkaPosted: Friday, October 21, 2005

If you argue that they are all false, no problem. You've found a solution that works for you and you can just leave the discussion now.If you argue that they are all equally true - which in our kinder, gentler way we are often inclined to do nowadays - then why follow any particular religion? It makes little sense to even bother to be, say, a christian, when Hinduism or Islam can get you to the same place.

alright, My personal belief system is that of spirituality, I have a powerful belief in GOD, but practice no "organized religion"

I have felt for many years, Satan created "religion" in order to keep us separate from one another, constantly at war with each other because in our collective minds we know our particular brand of religion is best.

Reply By: sunwukongPosted: Saturday, October 22, 2005Possibly the dark ages againYou mean when the Church controlled all aspects of life and Islamic nations were at the forefront of science?Christians have not forced anybody to agree with them for centuries.Yes, the problems in Yugoslavia were purely politically based. Oh, and the purges of native tribes in South America by settlers with support of both the military and the clergy was all about the perfect fruit. And the native residential schools in Canada was mostly about hockey.The only religion currently very active in the west and thinking of itself as the only true religion is atheism.Really? Then why are there missionaries and other forms of proselytizing? Are they claiming, "Join my equally valid religion and get more frequent flyer points when you die?"#36 by Spc Nobody Special#37 by Spc Nobody SpecialWhile I probably don't share his religious views, these two posts are the first coherent ones in this thread.

first every race and religion has its day at the top of the heap, yes the arabic culture gave us math and many other sciences to follow, had little to do with Islam though because Islam is a young religion and the strides made by the middle east were made before Islam excisted.

Although you responded here you added nothing but questions, then demeaned other peoples replies {except for the 2 replies you pointed out}

Reply By: little_whipPosted: Friday, October 21, 2005I think all organized religions should be eliminatedBecause they each think theirs is the best; the only true religion.So?Should Harley Davidsons be forbidden because some folks think they are the only one true motorcycle?Should classical music be outlawed because classical music fanatics think anything else is shit?How about vegans, who think their diet is the only one true healthy and humane way to eat?Icon, you've raised some legitimate arguments in the past, but this is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen anybody say on these forums.Its easy to talk out ones ass, but lets assume for a moment that you were really serious. How would you go about "eliminating" religion? Would you execute believers? (we're talking about billions of bodies here, worldwide,) Would you set up 're-education' camps? Who the hell is going to run the world while 80% of it is either being brainwashed, imprisoned, or worse?Do tell me how you would go about this. Or admit you're just blowing verbal chunks of poo in an effort to get a rise out of your intellectual superiors. They may indeed fall for the bait, but that doesnt make your own argument any less retarded.

so far no one has taken the bait whip, I sure have not.

It's offhand remarks like Icon made that continues to push me further right, all the left offers is "sound and fury"

#37 by Spc Nobody Special Friday, October 21, 2005

Only if you decide to hate the people from the other religions.

here is the problem, most highly structured religions do if not pure hate, scorn other religions, just look at todays problems all because of hatred by the Islamic kooks aimed at all other religion.

#35 by HC... Friday, October 21, 2005

I'll get jumped all over for this, but what the heck. LOL.

nope no jumping on people that express their beliefs, but as soon as I hear you way is the only way to God, you kinda lose me.

nope no jumping on people that express their beliefs, but as soon as I hear you way is the only way to God, you kinda lose me.

That's unfortunate, because it certainly isn't my intent, but as I said... since I do sincerely believe this, if I were to just keep quiet for whatever reasons (not wanting to offend anyone... wanting to be liked by all... worrying about coming across as narrow-minded or extreme), how is that caring about anyone but myself? Yes, it might keep the peace, and I'd be widely accepted as a "tolerant" person, but to what avail? Truth is not relative, and I can't pretend that it is. To do so would betray my own faith, perhaps at the expense of another's soul. Forgive me if I seem harsh. I really don't intend to be. Maybe one day I'll say something that will strike a chord with you, and I won't have lost you... but you will have been found instead. I pray that for you, anyway.

Thanks for allowing an atmosphere for open discussion on this topic. I find the exchange of ideas and beliefs refreshing.

Reply By: HC...Posted: Saturday, October 22, 2005nope no jumping on people that express their beliefs, but as soon as I hear you way is the only way to God, you kinda lose me.That's unfortunate, because it certainly isn't my intent, but as I said... since I do sincerely believe this, if I were to just keep quiet for whatever reasons (not wanting to offend anyone... wanting to be liked by all... worrying about coming across as narrow-minded or extreme), how is that caring about anyone but myself? Yes, it might keep the peace, and I'd be widely accepted as a "tolerant" person, but to what avail? Truth is not relative, and I can't pretend that it is. To do so would betray my own faith, perhaps at the expense of another's soul. Forgive me if I seem harsh. I really don't intend to be. Maybe one day I'll say something that will strike a chord with you, and I won't have lost you... but you will have been found instead. I pray that for you, anyway.Thanks for allowing an atmosphere for open discussion on this topic. I find the exchange of ideas and beliefs refreshing

I would have you no other way, it's ok with me that you have your particular brand of religion and want to spread the word as you see it, I do understand that part of Christianity is the spreading of gospell {good word} but at the same time the narrow vision of orginized religion is not inclusive, but exclusive.

While I probably don't share his religious views, these two posts are the first coherent ones in this thread.

Yes, that was my problem with them too.

Interesting thread and amazingly lacking in flaming. Nice.

While I am basically Judeo-Christian in my beliefs, I do not subscribe to organized relgion as I feel that all of them are somewhat off the mark.

The people pushing for elimination of all vestiges of relgious expression in society are as guilty of trying to force their beliefs on everyone as any of the historical examples of the abuses of religion.

Any society should be representative of the people in it, and the majority do hold some religious/spiritual and thus that is and should be reflected in it's culture.

I get a bit tired of the "separation of church and state" as this phrase appears nowhere in our constitution. The constitution forbids the government from establishing an official religion and from banning any religion. Nowhere does it ban public displays of religious thought.

While no people should be excluded from representation in a society, the society should primarily reflect the majority, not be dictated to by the minority which is what we have been seeing happen in recent decades.

48 by Chakgogka Saturday, October 22, 2005

While I probably don't share his religious views, these two posts are the first coherent ones in this thread. Yes, that was my problem with them too.

ya lost me chak, I was replying to comments made by sunwukong.

49 by MasonM Saturday, October 22, 2005

Interesting thread and amazingly lacking in flaming. Nice.

yes MM is trying to get along more now that my main nemisis has been exiled. forever.

get a bit tired of the "separation of church and state" as this phrase appears nowhere in our constitution. The constitution forbids the government from establishing an official religion and from banning any religion. Nowhere does it ban public displays of religious thought. While no people should be excluded from representation in a society, the society should primarily reflect the majority, not be dictated to by the minority which is what we have been seeing happen in recent decades.

one of my biggest beefs with scotus, is suddenly they Z"see" all kinds of things in the constitution that is just not there, Like the "right" to have abortions.

Although you responded here you added nothing but questions, then demeaned other peoples replies

I thought the thread was going along well and was very interesting except the points that I responded to were broad, false statements that should be disputed -- did everyone know they were false already?

The tone of the replies were entirely my fault of course. My apologies to anyone who thought the disputed points were seriously posed and should've had a more measured response.

Btw, rhetoric is a an accepted form of debate.

first every race and religion has its day at the top of the heap, yes the arabic culture gave us math and many other sciences to follow, had little to do with Islam though because Islam is a young religion and the strides made by the middle east were made before Islam excisted.

Are you saying that the scientific advancements under Christianity's heyday (Renaissance or now?) have nothing to do with the philosophical underpinnings it imposes?

Keep in mind that a great deal of the modernization of logic from Aristotle's original framework was accomplished by Islamic scholars including the formalization of induction and the basis for the scientific method accepted and codified by Bacon. There are a heck of a lot of advances that couldn't have been made without those contributions.