Not personal at all, I just know when I need to step back...and I appear to be in a fighting mood today, which isn't very fun for anyone

Listen, Baker--I'm apparently cranky and itching for a fight, so I'm going to log off now. Hope you have a good weekend.

Your comments are always very much appreciated, and looked for. Hope you feel better. After all, I agree with you more than any other left of center person!

I think you did....the way I read it you did, anyway.

dharma,

No, I didn't. But my experiences with the foster care system are no less valid than lifehappens, now, are they?

How would you feel if you had to live with the fact that a stepmother who had severely abused you as a child, to the point of slamming your head against the pavement repeatedly (causing partial psychomotor seizures that I must endure from time to time to this day) was not only never even charged with any wrongdoing, but continued on as the father who acquiesced to that treatment went on to become a respected leader of his community and a prominent minister, despite the fact that you had done everything you had to notify the authorities of the action (because it was a "civil" action, they never even investigated the situation)? How would you feel if your foster parents (remember, these are the certified "professional" parents, they're not only respected, they're the ones charged with PROTECTING the children CPS removes from their home) warehoused you in a back room that doubled as a storage area, misappropriated your money, and made it clear that you were only there to provide them with an income and then go on to have one parent become a city council member despite your efforts to notify the authorities of their actions?

I have NEVER questioned LEGITIMATE actions to protect children against abuse and neglect; I have only questioned the unConstitutional methods they employ to do so; methods lifehappens is expressly justifying in this article.

As unfortunate as it is, some % of children are going to be hurt by bad parents.  Children do not belong to the state. They are the responsibility of their parents. Unless there is very obvious proof of abuse, the state has no right to intervene.

No, I didn't. But my experiences with the foster care system are no less valid than lifehappens, now, are they?

You can say that you didn't all you want to; you can even believe that you didn't. But, to me, and to Life, in the way that you worded your response, you, to an extent, DID.

I'm sorry that you had a shitty childhood, but I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about who has had a worse time of things as a kid. I'll just say that I didn't exactly have a swell time of it either - and from the sounds of things, Life's experiences were a lot like my own. I haven't let them taint my opinion of government agencies, though, and from the sounds of things, she hasn't either.

I have NEVER questioned LEGITIMATE actions to protect children against abuse and neglect; I have only questioned the unConstitutional methods they employ to do so; methods lifehappens is expressly justifying in this article.

I really don't understand what you want CPS to do, Gid. You keep saying that you've never questioned legitimate actions to protect kids, yet I haven't seen you post an article praising CPS for removing children from the care of abusive or neglectful parents. I've seen a lot of articles from you about CPS' abuses; how the agency has removed children from the care of parents who were guilty of nothing more than choosing to live a 'different' lifestyle than the rest of the population. You don't mention children removed from homes where they are regularly left unattended, unfed, beaten, locked in closets, denied access to a toilet and forced to lie in their own filth. What would you have CPS do in cases like that, Gid? Or would you even HAVE an agency such as CPS exist?

I've seen children who really did NEED to be removed from their homes saved from misery, thanks to the CPS. The parents involved are serving sentences in the federal penitentiary now.....had CPS not existed, had they not intervened...well, who knows where those kids would be now.

There comes a point at which the welfare of innocent children MUST be our main priority. Period.

Draginol:

As unfortunate as it is, some % of children are going to be hurt by bad parents. Children do not belong to the state. They are the responsibility of their parents. Unless there is very obvious proof of abuse, the state has no right to intervene.

No, children do NOT belong to the state, and I agree 100% that unless there's some indication of abuse the state should keep their noses out. However....once an allegation of abuse or neglect has been made, does the state not have an obligation to follow up and investigate? How are they supposed to do that without violating someone's 4th and 14th amendment rights? Should we view all allegations as criminal matters?

At what point does the welfare of a child become more important than an abuser's constitutional rights?

At what point does the welfare of a child become more important than an abuser's constitutional rights?

So where do you draw the line? Child Abuse (noble), Shoplifting?

Where do you draw the line to revoke constitutional rights?

Shit happens. And we are powerless to prevent all of it except in a totalitarian state. Thought police anyone?

dharma,

lifehappens asked questions and I answered them. For someone who "supports us", you sure are on my ass pretty hard, aren't you?

I'm done with this discussion and others related to the topic as far as you are concerned. Sorry for dumping on your blog with a reply, lifehappens.

Where do you draw the line to revoke constitutional rights?

I don't know. That's why I'm not a member of the Judiciary or the supreme court.

For someone who "supports us", you sure are on my ass pretty hard, aren't you?

I don't think so. I fully support you in your quest to keep your children with you and to disprove all false allegations of abuse or neglect that have been made against you. I support your decision to utilize your constitutional rights in your relationship with CPS.

What I DON'T support is your opinion that CPs is some kind of horrific entity that does more harm than good because that's simply not true. I refuse to believe that every child removed from the family home was done so by an over-zealous social worker who was sticking her nose in where it didn't belong. CPS does do SOME good...I've known families who, had it not been for CPS assistance, would have been homeless and penniless. Social services got involved, pointed these folks in the right direction, and got them the help that they needed and then some.

Are you refusing to answer questions because it's on LH's blog? Because I can go write an article about it - if you're willing to give me your opinion on it over there I'll be more than happy to create an article on the subject. I'm not being facetious; I really do know what you think should be done in cases where there really is abuse; where you think the need to remove the children from the home outweighs an abuser's constitutional rights.

dharma,

I've answered that question repeatedly. I believe investigations into criminal activity should be done by trained law enforcement personnel rather than CPS agents in a "civil" action (that's not very civil when the children are removed), and should be done in accordance with the Constitution.

I believe that anonymous CPS reporting should be eliminated because it not only infringes on the sixth amendment rights to face one's accuser, it actually HINDERS legitimate CPS investigations due to the fact that an anonymous report is not admissible in a court of law. I believe it could reasonably be replaced with a "shield law" in rare cases where the reporter has legitimate reason to fear for their security and safety (such as, for instance, a report filed by a child who is the victim of the abuse).

I believe parents should have the right to an attorney provided them from the moment an investigation is first lodged, at public expense if necessary, because many of them are unaware of their rights, and due to ignorance of the law, may say or do things that are misconstrued by well meaning "authorities", as well as others. At present, lawyers are only provided when CPS begins termination of parental rights, an action that rarely happens for that reason and leaves children who are legitimate victims of abuse in a dangerous limbo.

I believe that the standard of "innocent until proven guilty" should apply, as it is the accepted standard of American legal procedure, and that parental rights should not be terminated involuntarily until/unless a CRIMINAL trial has adjudged the parents guilty of abuse or neglect.

I believe that CPS agents should cease and desist from interviewing children in schools without parental knowledge or consent unless a warrant is obtained consistent with the standards enumerated in the 4th amendment.

I believe that governmental agencies should stop their quota based pay system that rewards CPS for removing children from the home and further rewards them if the children are classified as "special needs", increasing the likelihood the child will become drug dependent under CPS "care". If CPS continues to exist (and I don't see why they should, frankly), it should only be as a subsection of a legitimate law enforcement agency such as the county or state police force, and funding should not be based on the number of seizures, as is currently the case in many jurisdictions.

I believe that parents have a right to objective information about their rights and responsibilities under the law.

I have many other beliefs about them, and, frankly, have blogged continually as to my beliefs.

Child abuse is a crime, child neglect is a crime. Crimes should be investigated by the police and prosecuted by the courts, with the defendant's rights seen to.