Piss off CPS

Lifehappens: You need to do some background reading on Gideon's blog. He has, for quite a long while, proposed changes to CPS. He has discussed specific areas of concern and offered solutions to the problems as he sees them. This predates his recent trials with CPS.

This isn't an issue of him criticizing from an apathetic position of ignorance. He has done his homework and has been very proactive about these issues all along.

Your background and experiences have influenced how you see the work of CPS. And the same goes for Gideon. I understand this is an issue that you feel passionately about, but you can't apply your experiences to Gideon's situation. This is different.

In the US you don't investigate people to find out what crimes they have commited, you investigate crimes. In some nations you are arrested, and then sit and wait while they deconstruct your life so that they can find something to accuse you of.

That is basically what you are suggesting. Your neighbor anonymously accuses you of something, and they have the right to take your life apart for months until they find something wrong. You really think that is the way things should be?

No, in the US when we are accused of a crime we have the right to a jury of our peers, a right to counsel, and a right to a lawful investigation of the crime. CPS ignores all that, assumes your guilt, and you spend months trying to prove to them that you are innocent.

If you want to punish people based upon anonymous accusations, perhaps the US isn't the place for you. In your system anyone accused of a crime immediately loses all their rights, and there doesn't even have to be proof that a crime occurred .

In the US you don't investigate people to find out what crimes they have commited, you investigate crimes. In some nations you are arrested, and then sit and wait while they deconstruct your life so that they can find something to accuse you of.

Could not have said it better myself.

I understand where you're coming from...you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I can't speak about Gideon's situation because I'm not personally involved, but I can attest that I've seen places that, had the social workers gained access immediately, the kids would have been placed in protective custody.

I don't know what the right thing to do is. All I can say is that I really do understand where you're coming from.

That is basically what you are suggesting. Your neighbor anonymously accuses you of something, and they have the right to take your life apart for months until they find something wrong. You really think that is the way things should be?

I didn't suggest this at all. I agree with many of the things Gideon is saying, BUT I am against simply abolishing a system if we have nothing else to offer.

I understand where you're coming from...you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Thank you Dharma. That was basically the point of this article. There IS NO solution that will give good parents privacy and also help protect the kids who need to be removed.

The system, as is, can work - if the CPS folks follow the same rules as everyone else. If they are tipped off, they should go investigate. If they are refused entrance, then they have to be prepared to seek a warrant to gain access. Once the warrant is in place, then they can go in. No warrant - no entry.

Funny thing is - this is the exact same scenario that the various police organizations have to follow. Every. Single. Time. No one complains then. Yet, it's a big problem because CPS should be following the same rules?

Sure, some evidence of mistreatment can be concealed in the time it takes to get a warrant. Same can be said for cops. How many police officers don't have a pet judge that they can get a quickie warrant, when necessary? CPS can do the same thing. Call someone to talk to the judge and then bring the warrant down. Leave the on-scene social worker in place, so that no evidence is tampered with, and then have ANOTHER social worker transport the warrant to the scene.

It's not so much a "the system is broke, we need to toss it out and find something else" situation. It's a "we need to be enforcing the rules that they should already be following" situation.

I find it interesting that the article I threw out there at 2 am to point out the problems in the system got literally 10 times the hits and attention that the original article I wrote did. The things I posted that were the heart of how I felt are hidden and I wonder if people will think that this throwaway article represents the end all of my beliefs.
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Chaos-That sounds great in theory, but with the overworked system where caseworkers are spread so thin....do you really think that's going to happen? Maybe I'm a cynic, but like I pointed out. If a cop misses something, people will get over it. When children are involved, there is much less room for error. If a child's abuse is missed by CPS, there is a HUGE outcry. They are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The line they walk is so fine that even the earnest caseworkers who are sincerely out to do their job and not harrrass anyone are berated and cursed and pushed around. Yeah, Gid doesn't want his rights trampled on. I don't know who is doing the job over there, but imagine them for a sec. They are overworked, checking up on red flag families and they get an obviously exagerated tip. They think, "hey, I'll fun out there and knock this out. Al I have to do is check the blocks and make sure nothing is going on." They get there and the parents stonewall. Now instead of being able to focus on the boatload of cases she has backed up already, she has to add this to her list. Get a warrent, re-review the charges, do more thorough background investigation and go back to the house, try to check again. This time, her radar is up. She notices and writes down all the little things that aren't such a big deal alone, but added together might explain the parents reaction. "Why did the dad get so defensive? What IS going on? Was the tip really that exagerated? "What looks like it may have recently been covered up? How are the kids acting? Are they jumpy and on edge?" That may be because Dad hates me and told them I'm a bad person but it might be out of an underlying issue. (By reacting strongly against a SW, the parents show the kids that the SW is "bad" or can't be trusted....they act guarded and refuse to talk....the social worker trys to pry information out of them and may end up leading them or twisting their words because she is just trying to find out if there is abuse or another problem...the situation escalates further) Is she "out to get you"? Probably not. Does she get paid a bonus for every family she tears apart? No. So have a little sympathy for someone who is just trying to do her job. Don't make her the scapegoat of the system you hate so much.

"BUT I am against simply abolishing a system if we have nothing else to offer."

On the contrary, child abuse and neglect is a crime. Believe it or not we do have police and a justice system that deals with crimes. The only reason we have CPS is so that government can "civilly" tread on our rights without the oversite police and the justice system have to tolerate.

On the contrary, child abuse and neglect is a crime. Believe it or not we do have police and a justice system that deals with crimes.

We also have special units of the Police that deal with animal abuse. "Animal Police" is one of my favorite TV shows. Sadly, watching it makes me think that we often provide more protection to our animals than to our children.

child abuse and neglect is a crime

I'm glad that fact is clear to you because in many cases.....abuse isn't so clear. Please enlighten me on how you want the police/justice system to deal with this. do we treat all cases of abuse and neglect the same and punish the offenders with jail time? What about the young parent who, with some counseling and possibly (shock, gasp, amazement) with the HELP of CPS could break the cycle of abuse or fix a problem while it is small....BEFORE children have to be removed.

Everyone likes to throw out the shocking cases of CPS mismanagement and abuse as though every child was ripped from a loving family. Those who were in the system....or in a friggin' mental institution see cases of abused children who were not removed soon enough. Complain about your rights and how the big bad government gets it's jollies messing with you and your family......but remember that you are a tiny fish in a big pond. If you don't like how the current runs.....it's going to take a lot more than whining to fix the system. And if you think that taking a personal stand and forcing caseworkers to get a warrant is better....think about how many other aspects of bureaucratic paperwork runs.....sluggish and slow....corrupt and congested. how is THAT supposed to protect the children? Which, in case you may have missed, is the primary mission of CHILDRENS PROTECTIVE SERVICE.

So nothing in the Constitution counts as long as they can say they are using it to protect children? Where does it end? You have no clue how what you pretend is justified could be abused. These powers are kept out of the hands of government because no one is infallible enough to hold such, and others could abuse them to HARM CHILDREN.

What you are describing is investigating crimes before they happen. You've set the standard for abuse so low that the CPS would just be some socialist child brokering business shifting kids to homes just as or even more questionable.

life,

I want to see our Constitutional Rights enforced. Period. I have REPEATEDLY explained (and offered statistics) that in 97% of all child removals, NO CRIMINAL CHARGES ARE EVER FILED! So CPS felt they had enough information to remove the child, but didn't have enough evidence to refer the case to the prosecutor? Sounds fishy to me, don't you think?

If an investigation of child abuse or neglect is warranted, it should be CRIMINAL, not CIVIL. And we need to stop mandatory reporting, since on the occasions when it IS a legitimate report, the evidence cannot be used in a criminal proceeding, due to the Sixth Amendment right to confront witnesses against you.

The FACTS are this: no matter how pretty CPS wants to make it look, most of their investigations are NOT into legitimate cases of abuse or neglect, but rather are the result of neighbors or family members using the anonymous reporting system to (ironically) emotionally abuse and harass innocent parents.

But it is NOT the government's job to protect us. Facts are facts, people die. We cannot arrest everyone who shows signs of deviant behaviour simply upon the speculation that they MIGHT hurt or kill someone later. We can and SHOULD enforce the law when it is violated, with SERIOUS penalties.

They get there and the parents stonewall. Now instead of being able to focus on the boatload of cases she has backed up already, she has to add this to her list. Get a warrent, re-review the charges, do more thorough background investigation and go back to the house, try to check again.

Yeah, cry me a river. It's called DOING THEIR JOB!

This time, her radar is up. She notices and writes down all the little things that aren't such a big deal alone, but added together might explain the parents reaction. "Why did the dad get so defensive? What IS going on? Was the tip really that exagerated? "

Nope, sorry. "...no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized" (emphasis mine). That little tidbit was brought to you by an obscure document known as the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.

If we are fighting a social worker who is so crooked as to violate the law, then we can't win, except in appellate courts. And we can't GET to appellate courts unless we have a basis for appeal. See where I'm going with this? This is one of the primary reasons lawyers file countless "objections" in court, even when they know they will be overruled. Every objection is a potential basis for appeal.

I am not trying to obstruct anyone from the legitimate performance of their duties. I AM demanding that they follow the same laws I am expected to follow.

What about the young parent who, with some counseling and possibly (shock, gasp, amazement) with the HELP of CPS could break the cycle of abuse or fix a problem while it is small....BEFORE children have to be removed.

Fact is, that rarely happens, life...and in many cases is subject to a subjective opinion of what constitutes abuse.

In the minds of some social workers, spanking a child is abuse. "Hurting their self esteem" is also considered abuse, and that's a BROAD subject, lemme tell you.

Your intentions are admirable, but a government that dictates the daily lives of citizens is a government where freedom is nonexistent. You are saying, in essence, that slavery is freedom, that if we subject our wills to this benign entity known as "the government", we will be free.

How many crimes could be prevented by banning music, literature, and other forms of media that we deem offensive? How many conflicts could we eliminate by banning religion altogether?

What you are proposing, life, is a portal to an authoritarian state where individual rights are nonexistent. And I would rather die than live in such a state.

Gideon:

I understand that you are very upset by this whole situation (as you have every right to be)...but Lifehappens sees the system from the other side--from the point of the kid who needed help. You appear to have completely dismissed both her point of view and the notion that CPS does any good ever.

If you truly want to make substantive changes to the system--you are going to have to listen to all stakeholders--even those you don't agree with, and especially those who have been children in the system.

shades,

I never dismissed her point of view, but, as Baker said, if what her parents did to merit CPS intervention wasn't criminal, then frankly, she should be working on laws to change that.

If we are to abolish the Constitution, or some of the Bill of Rights, as lifehappens is proposing, and allow government agencies free entry into our home without probable cause, then it needs to be done ACCORDING to the Constitution, NOT in defiance of it. The Constitution CLEARLY explains what needs to be done to amend it, it's been done 27 times since it was written, and can be done again. If the majority of the American people vote on Constitutional amendments to abandon the Bill of Rights, then that is a decision that the remainder of the American people need to accept.

Until such a time, however, the Constitution MUST be respected!

That may be because Dad hates me and told them I'm a bad person but it might be out of an underlying issue.

Actually, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, Life...we have ALWAYS told our children to be honest when they're asked questions. But lawyers know how to ask leading questions to lead intelligent adults into saying things they don't mean; try to think how much worse they could do to a child.

If you wish to live under an authoritarian government, I am sure there are a few who would accept your efforts to emigrate there. But in America, we STILL have the Constitution, it STILL stands as the rule of law, and neither your opinion or mine can stand to change it.

even those you don't agree with, and especially those who have been children in the system.

And, as I stated before, shades...I have been a child in the system as well. And one who was put there legitimately. One of the most glaring problems with our foster care system is that the state is so overburdened investigating spurious complaints and removing children that there simply are not enough foster homes for them all. This leads to overcrowding situations, "foster farms", and situations such as the family who was housing 11 special needs foster children IN CAGES.

I have REPEATEDLY stated what I felt should change about the system. I have REPEATEDLY offered solutions. The fact that you, and lifehappens didn't choose to listen is not my fault at all.

What should NOT happen, however, is for us to exist in a situation where every spurious complaint is met with a microscopic, overzealous scrutinizing of the alleged offenders while truly abusive parents escape scrutiny because of overworked caseworkers. A close study of the system will show that the current zeal of many CPS agents is HINDERING, rather than helping, legitimate investigations (check out www.nccpr.org for more information. They're a group of child protective workers and others working to change the system from within).

You appear to have completely dismissed both her point of view and the notion that CPS does any good ever.

I never dismissed her point of view,

I think you did....the way I read it you did, anyway. According to you, CPS does very LITTLE good, and consistently does a GREAT deal of harm. Life's coming at it from a different perspective (ie as a child who's family was subject to CPS attention), and you seem to be telling her that her experience is invalid because it's different to yours. I felt the same way when I told you about MY experience with CPS. Not everyone who has an involvement with CPS is undeserving of said involvement, and not every child who is removed is done so without cause. I agree that their methods are unconstitutional but....which would you prefer: a child that's removed (and thereby saved from a fatal injury) from a physically abusive home using current CPS methods, or a child who's parents fight the constitutionality of CPS methods, is left in the home because CPS can't get a warrant to search the home, and is killed by said parents? I know which I'd prefer.

I have REPEATEDLY stated what I felt should change about the system. I have REPEATEDLY offered solutions. The fact that you, and lifehappens didn't choose to listen is not my fault at all.

Actually, I have listened, to both of you. My response made no comment about CPS, at all. It was simply an observation that if you want to win this battle, you're going to have to get a lot of people on board, even those that you don't necessarily whole-heartedly agree with.

Just my point of view.

"You appear to have completely dismissed both her point of view and the notion that CPS does any good ever."

In what other area do the bleeding hearts accept the possibility of a something good at the guaranteed cost of our constitutional rights?

You're telling me that a policeman who sees someone suspicious in a subway doesn't have the right to look into their backpack, and yet CPS can go through your house without a warrant based upon an anonymoust TIP, and steal away your children with no warrant? Would the one time they found a bomb merit the ten thousand times they didn't? Imagine them stomping through ten thousand houses. CPS does it every year, probably every month.

It's insipid, frankly, to even propose such a thing. People like lifehappens validate it out of self-interest, just like someone who's mother died in a bomb attack might promote wanton illegal searches in a subway. Just because they have suffered doesn't mean our rights should be invaded.

" It was simply an observation that if you want to win this battle, you're going to have to get a lot of people on board, even those that you don't necessarily whole-heartedly agree with.

No, I think it is going to take teaching the public what CPS really is, and what powers they really have. People assume that CPS has the power to do all this stuff, so after decades they have assumed they can. Lifehappens is describing a system that only exists because local politics and corrupt government allows it to.

In what other area do the bleeding hearts accept the possibility of a something good at the guaranteed cost of our constitutional rights?

Don't project onto me your hatred of liberals, the ACLU or anyone else. I was speaking of my opinion--that's it. You want to tar the entire liberal population with it, that's your beef.

I never actually made a statement about whether or not CPS should or shouldn't do what it is currently doing, did I? I think that you assume to know where I stand because I believe that if Gideon wants to fight the good fight he's going to have to win over those who want to protect the system out of self-interest. Crazy notion, but if you have more allies than enemies you tend to get farther.

"I never actually made a statement about whether or not CPS should or shouldn't do what it is currently doing, did I? "

No, I was addressing your statement that we should give ear to people who think rights are negotiable if the outcome is "good."

Listen, Baker--I'm apparently cranky and itching for a fight, so I'm going to log off now. Hope you have a good weekend.

No problem, shades. Don't take it personally, I mean no offense.