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Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?

Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?

Business vs. Community

https://www.wincustomize.com/Articles.aspx?AID=87967

There are some people who think that the moment someone starts a business that they instantly become greedy, money grubbing corporate robots.  But the reality is, most companies are privately held and those companies do things based on what motivated the stockholders.  In a private company wealth may only be a secondary motivator.

I can say as the principle shareholder in Stardock that accumulating wealth has never been my motivator. I want to do cool stuff. And I consider it my "talent" to be able to generally take things I enjoy doing and be able to do them as part of my "job".  Some things are done strictly because we think they're neat to do even though there's no remote business justification for it (JoeUser.com for instance).  We recently started doing PowerUser.tv too. There's no money to be made in podcasting (unless you're a mega player). But it's fun.

WinCustomize falls into a middle category.  Stardock makes software such as WindowBlinds, IconPackager, DesktopX, and so forth.  People who buy that software or are thinking of buying that software will want to see what can be done with it.  So in that sense, having some sort of gallery of content is necessary.  Statistically, most people hear about the software somewhere else or see a screenshot, download the trial version, and THEN start downloading skins after they've purchased it. It's not the other way around -- as a percent, few people discover our software through the skins first.

WinCustomize is a lot more than a skin gallery though.  It's a whole web community.  It's the largest - by far - site dedicated to downloading content to enhance your Windows desktop experience.  With over 22 million monthly visitors, it's one of the largest sites on the net period.  And it's safe to say that of the 22 million visitors, only a tiny tiny % actually have purchased (or will purchase) a Stardock product.

The growth of WinCustomize has been steady.  In December 2004, the site was getting around 14 million visitors per month. In September 2005, it got just about 22 million.  That's a very significant increase for such a short period of time.  Yet subscriptions to the site have declined.  That is, people who pay $20 to support the continued existence of the site and receive a number of (I think) pretty cool services. 

Some people have argued that WinCustomize has no business even trying to get people to buy subscriptions. Since Stardock "owns" it then Stardock should pay for everything because it's a "marketing" expense.  Running a site that gets 22+ million visitors per month is not like running some home page.  It takes rooms of servers and hundreds of megabits PER SECOND.  It also requires an IT staff, database developers and web developers.  You're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in expenses.

As a marketing expense, WinCustomize's value is pretty limited.  After all, DesktopX has been on WinCustomize since its founding and yet the wider world seems completely unaware of its existence.  You hear a lot about Konfabulator.  But little about DesktopX.  Why is that?  There's lots of reasons. But one of the root reasons is a lack of marketing.  A lack of ability to get the word out on DesktopX to get users and developers to try it out.  More developers doing things with it would mean more and better content which in turn would encourage more users to use it.  But in the end, Konfabulator ended up as the program people think of for adding mini-applets to their desktop.  And those who have heard of DesktopX are often unaware that it does a lot more such as build entire desktops and allow for desktop objects.  So how valuable is WC for marketing? Not much.  To be generous, I'd say $50k.  And that's just one example.

But WinCustomize currently costs over $300k per year to exist.  And in a year, it'll likely cost closer to $400k.  Advertising and subscriptions bring the cost down by around $100k. That leaves $200k left.  It WC worth $200k in marketing? Not on your life.  If Stardock had $200k in extra marketing dollars to spend each year, think of all the advertisements, high end PR firms, and community outreach programs it could have invested in?  

The point being, while WinCustomize has some value as a marketing resource, its value is pretty limited. The simple fact is that WinCustomize exists because of what I mentioned at the start -- Stardock, as a private company, can do things simply because it thinks it would be cool.  It cares about the skinning community and it thinks having a site like this is neat and worthwhile -- to a point.  Individuals have hobbies. Private companies have hobbies too (that's a big difference between private companies and publicly held companies).  But just as with personal hobbies, at some point they get too expensive to keep going.

To try to change things, Stardock has brought in two new people right away to help create more incentives for people to subscribe to WinCustomize -- more content for subscribers.  But odds are, things are going to start getting tighter for those who simply visit the site month after month who haven't contributed anything (on WC, skinners, even if they've not subscribed or bought anything are given access so that they are treated as subscribers).

Some things that come to mind:

  • People with no accounts will only be able to download things that have been uploaded in the past 48 hours and only 5 megabytes of content.
  • People without account will likely see a lot more ads. See www.gamespot.com for a good model.
  • People with accounts will be able to download up to 50 megabytes. After that they must become an SD customer or a subscriber.
  • People who have purchased a SD product (Object Desktop, CursorXP, etc.) will have unlimited downloads but there will be some skins that will only be available to subscribers.
  • SD customers will see fewer ads but they will see some ads.

These are just a few ideas floating around -- ideas submitted by users incidentally -- that we're seriously considering.  Since WC isn't paid for by ads, the # of monthly visitors is not as much of a goal as one might think.  If we could cut our traffic in half, we could probably save around $50k per year in expenses.  Another $50k would likely result from increase SD product purchases and/or subscriptions.  That would be a net difference of $100k.

There are plenty of other good skin sites out there people can visit. Here are a few: http://www.skinbase.org, http://lotsofskins.com, http://skins.deviantart.com/, http://www.skinz.org, http://www.customize.org.

Stardock - the company - needs sites for people to be able to download skins and themes for its software.  But it doesn't have to be WinCustomize.com. Ultimately, if the wider userbase doesn't or can't support WinCustomize as it exists today, then WinCustomize will evolve to be a site that caters more to those who can support it.  The current model for it is unsustainable.

63,372 views 134 replies
Reply #101 Top

You forgot if wincustomize go offline a new site will open. This is the live.

Nothing would be better than to have a new 'big' site open.  If it shares/reduces the current load on Wincustomize.com we'd all be grateful....for the speedier access here and the diversity...the more the merrier.

If anyone really has a spare, lazy few millions...go for it...

Reply #102 Top
Why upload skins to a skinsite with so much limitations when you can upload it to other very popular skinsites without limits?


Perhaps the reason those other skin sites are without limits has to do with a much smaller number of users?

Or perhaps (for some) the constant popup-ads that defray costs for the site by annoying users?

And what makes you think that skinners will not want to upload to a site where people are expected to make SOME sort of contribution? I know that I will continue to submit skins here.

As far as I'm concerned, those who have a problem chipping in to pay for the value this site provides are more than welcome to go elsewhere.
Reply #103 Top
Or perhaps (for some) the constant popup-ads that defray costs for the site by annoying users?

One of many good reasons to subscribe to WC

And then of course there's the added risk of downloads via executable files which also contain spyware, malware and browser hijackers. Some sites have already resorted to this harmful 'to the user' tactic, purely to increase profits, and more will follow suit as larger concerns with vested interests further spread their wings.

Okay, so you like free stuff, but like MountainDragon suggested, there's plenty of elsewheres to go for all those 'so-called' 'free skins'....plus all that other unwanted, unavoidable and harmful free stuff thats bundled with alot of them. And oh, that "I don't want this crap' button don't guarantee anything. Many of those exe files are designed not to take no for an answer, as vouched for by the brand new registry entries and your browser going places you've never even heard of....that carefully concealed and unsavoury pop-under that later has the authorities knocking on your door. Yep, there sure are alot of internet horror stories out there, and if you play your cards right(wrong), one could be playing on a computer near you.

Given the risks, it sure makes better sense to bite the bullet, dust the cobwebs off the wallet and subscribe to download the free skins from the user friendly, safe environment at Wincustomize
Reply #104 Top

Wardell. You forgot something. The main subject of wincustomize are skins and the most people don't earn any money with uploading skins at wincustomize. If you make too much limitations they won't submit skins any more.

Why upload skins to a skinsite with so much limitations when you can upload it to other very popular skinsites without limits?

You forgot if wincustomize go offline a new site will open. This is the live.

What limitations are on skinners?  Popular skinners get elite access which is the same as a suscription.

What are these other "very popular" skin sites without limits?  Can you find a skin site with a sub 10,000 alexa ranking that has no limitations or side-effects?

Besides, from Stardock's point of view, what does it care if you download skins for WindowBlinds at "very popular" skin site? Someone else is picking up the tab and WindowBlinds skins are still distributed.

Reply #105 Top
ok... I'm back with more ideas...

I personally think that WinCustomize should be a subscription site. for those who think that doing so means that they are selling the art wwork of peoples skins doesn't hold water.

This site brings all sorts of eyes to your work on a public scale, hosts your work on its servers, and creates a community around your work (social networking is the new buzz word). If you feel so wronged by this, take your stuff off and host it yourself. If you get millions of people looking at it, thousands of people with the ability to comment on it, and so forth then good luck.

Here, I'll help you out.

Buy a GoDaddy account, install a program like p(L)og or Geeklog (open source apps) or even Joomla (open source content manager) and now you can create your own communtiy.

Good luck to you and send me a link.

For those who want to stay, I say good for you! WinCustomize and your work 'works' together and gain mutual benefit. You get exposure (and rather quickly than going off and doing it yourself) and friends.

I think some who have already made it can use the solution I posted above and not worry about leaving the larger social network behind.




In other ranting news...



Advertising iPod Nano


With Wincustomize gettting around million of visitors a month, it should be redesigned so that the advertising pays more of the cost (keep in mind I did not say all, but more than what it is doing)

Having Total Webpage Advertisng can help promote ads from outside sources as well as Stardocks on products.

This is where you media marketing section of Stardock should sink its teeth into or have a voleenteer on winCustomize handle marketing for winCustomize.



Stardock Advertising Gish


I am writing a full idea on this (on my deals, media and advertising web blog) and have actually taken screenshots of winCusto and how it could look for unsigned in people and for Stardock pople AND for Wincustomize subscribers (3 different levels of involvement... non signed in individuals see the most ads, Stardock and signed in people see TARGETED ADS and Wincustomize subscriber see no ads)


I think the new design for Wincusto, better UI, clear levels of uses and how to get involved, and finally a web advertsing management for wincusto can make it an over all better site.
Reply #106 Top
I just want to point one thing out to those who talk about $20 PER YEAR being a lot of money for a hobby.



Frogboy: No matter how much you argue how assinine it is to say, "$20.00 is not expensive", you should know that people treat software as if it really should be free.

You buy the compueter and everything that can be installed should be free. That is true from 3D Studio to Paint Shop Pro.Why would it be any different for WinCustomize subscription?

You know this! LOL

The same people (literally) will spend 20 dollars when they are NOT suppossed to on food, a movie or eve a game, but when you ask for something like this... they look at you like you have man-breasts (really big ones).


Since it looks like the subscription drive isn't going to work, I will be looking forward to the flame wars that follow.




Again, for those who thing that WinCustomize being a subscription site only or something close to it is earning money off of the artists, then by all means should open their own site, host the files, create the database, pay for the bandwidth, install a website content manager like Joomla or Geeklog (both open source solutions) and start their own site.

Because OBVIOUSLY WinCusto isn't really doing ANYTHING for you to host your work on its servers.

This might work well for people like The skins Factory or SkinPlant who are well known, but for those just starting or in the sort of well known skinner stage... peobably not... what even more strange is that all the sites I know that made a business out of skinning and related web development and amrketing started here and gained a fan base that they would not have otherwise had (as well as new members of their business)

Just using The Skins Factory and SkinPlant as an example... not saying that they said anything about taking their stuff and going away.
Reply #107 Top
Hello all...

Please check out Link to see a seriously posed conceptual thought for drastically reducing bandwidth for WinCustomize. (I gotta cut this short, have work in the morning so I can't read all 106 posts under this article...) It's a drop in the bucket...but a drop that could save, in theory, 50-75% of the bandwidth costs on this site? I believe that's something Brad and crew would support... (but, it's just a thought). Thanks.
Reply #108 Top
Whoops!!!

Stardock advertising Gish
Reply #109 Top
Do it, do it, do it!! limit skin access to non subscribers also limit amount of d/loads, to non subscribers, hell limit or stop whatever you feel like to people that wont pay, i'll just sit back here and watch how fast this site sinks
Reply #110 Top
i'll just sit back here and watch how fast this site sinks


i doubt this site would sink ... if anything .. i think it would flourish..with the reduced bandwith and lower over head WC staff could better attend to the needs/wants of those who actually contribute

most other sites either have mass amount of adds or spyware wrapped around the installers,for those who dont subscribe...I think the WC guys have been more than fair with those who wish to play but not pay ...
Reply #111 Top
" limit skin access to non subscribers also limit amount of d/loads, to non subscribers, hell limit or stop whatever you feel like to people that wont pay, i'll just sit back here and watch how fast this site sinks "


Like the average freeloader is keeping the site afloat? There are plenty of sites giving away free skins, and Stardock will always have its own skin library. The question is whether a gesture of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is really going toward supporting the skinning community, or if it is being leeched to pieces by anonymous folks that wander in and couldn't care less...
Reply #112 Top
First, I am a Stardock subscriber, and WC subscriber. I have been using SD for a few years now.
And I love it, and am happy to pay for a WC and SD subscription. That aside,
One problem i have with the stardock Object Desktop universe isnt the price of Object Desktop,
but that most everything costs $20 on top of it.

I think once you paid $50 or whatever for OD, you shouldnt have to pay another $XX just to use the software to the fullest of its capabilities: Cursor XP: another $20
ObjectDock plus: another $20
etc...
This in my thoughts should all be included with the OD price. It's paying large prices for crippled software.

Now you can say well those things aren't really a part of Object Desktop, but perhaps a solution would be
to give Object Desktop subscribers a bit of a better discount on secondary applications.
Sorry but a $5 discount on Object Dock which IMHO isn't worth $20 asking price
anyways isn't really conforting.

Then add on top of that Cursor XP and all these things that even make a Suite...
a theme, which is what OD is all about,
it's like you're only getting part of the pizza for all the cost.

Just my thoughts.
Reply #113 Top
My point is, theres a lot of other desktop enhancement programs out there, some you have to pay for such as talisman, some you dont have to pay a bean for, but what they all have in common is that once you have obtained the program you DONT have to pay again in order to download skins and change the look of the program, a lot of people pay for desktop x, windowblinds etc because theres a large FREE skinbase, I just think if you change that, you'll be biting off your own nose to spite your face. Theres always gonna be pirates and leechers no matter what kind of software is availabe.
Reply #114 Top
And that's already happening, with skins only available to site subscribers, where does that lead? Eventually Object Desktop will have to lower their prices to accomodate the change skins go from free to paid for.
Reply #115 Top
"...but what they all have in common is that once you have obtained the program you DONT have to pay again in order to download skins and change the look of the program, a lot of people pay for desktop x, windowblinds etc because theres a large FREE skinbase... "


The comparison to apps like Talisman is apt, since they don't pay to host skins for their apps at all, and yet they still stay in business. If you click the links to skins at Lighttek, you go to one of the many free skin sites in the community. If Talisman is making it without spending hudreds of thousands of dollars hosting skins, why would Stardock shrivel and die? They wouldn't.

It's a flawed point anyway because wincusto isn't the only place to download skins for Stardock products. If wincustomize decided to be more stern about subscriptions people could still go to deviantart or any other the many other skin sites if they were too destitute to support the sites they use. I'd add that even sites like Deviantart stay afloat only because of subscriptions.

Reply #116 Top
This thread came up in a google search for 'Wincustomize'...and was actually worth a re-read [to me, anyway]...
'Tis only 8 months later....
Reply #117 Top
Does Stardock need WinCustomize?


Yep! Sure does!
Reply #118 Top
Gee I keep subscribing to OD I wonder why


On a another note My Wife recently got some Yahoo widgets is Stardock behind that? I'm trying to keep a uniform software inside my home network and I worry about anything with yahoo's name on it

Reply #119 Top
Yahoo widgets is Stardock behind that?


Not Stardock.

Yahoo bought Konfabulator
Reply #120 Top
The solution to this problem is simple... Check out the Webshots.com website. The software is free. Every day I can dowload up to five individual (one at a time) regular quality 800x600 photos. This is too many in my opinion, how many skins does a guy need anyway? how many times a day would you go change themes? One or two skin downloads per day would be quite enough. If you want another wait one just till tomorrow. Easy. Of course the regular photos are not very good when compared to the high definition widescreen photos. But they still look pretty damn good. Those that want to download a whole page of photos and get access to the good stuff have to buy a Premium subscription. There is normal user submissions and Proshots for those artists that can do perfect work every time. (also the site is quite well designed) If you could go to Webshots and see skin previews instead of photos you know what I mean. It seems like a perfect way do keep your costs down.
Reply #121 Top
Good bump on this thread. WC is important to me as a subscriber and user of Stardock products. Although I don't contribute skins, I try to put what I can into the system by purchasing all the programs and premium works that I can. For me, WC is the "showroom" for Stardock products, providing an interface for me, the consumer, to obtain "product" to use. It's hard for me to compare WC to any local marketplace, as this is a unique concept, depending upon, and sustaining, Stardock's products. I pay for items/art/programs that I want and can afford at the time. I'll continue to do so, as I'm able to.
Reply #122 Top

WinCustomize could lower their subscription price to (ONE) $1.00 for a year subscription... You have to have a subscription to download skins or you can only download 2 (two) per month... (Except for the Skinners they get it for free)
Now for the premium Skins any 4 for $10.00. 2 for $8.00

Why you say so cheap??
Well here is why you will make MORE money.
Even if you put a bigger download limit more people will take the subscription...

With over 22 million monthly visitors, let’s say half of this is repeat so now we’re at 11M even if you only get 5% of this you will make LOTS of MONEY this is something like $550,000.00

To me this $ would be much higher something like 25% to 35%
Even 10% is good that is 1,100,000.00
20% = $2,200,000.00...


But you all are charging $20.00 for a year subscription at which your making a lot of $$$
Lets (brake) it down. What is the % of the 22M? That has a subscription is it 1%?
Even @ 1% this is 220,000 subscribers @ $20.00 = $4,400,000.00
Even @ 0.5% this is 110,000 subscribers @ $20.00 = $2,200,000.00
@ 0.025% this is 55,000 subscribers @ $20.00 = $1,100,000.00

So now looking at all this WinCustomize is not hurting!!!!!!!

.0125% = 27,500 subscribers @ $20.00 = $550,000.00
.00625 = 13,750 subscribers @ $20.00 = $275,000.00
Note Subscribers and subscriptions is referring to paid persons

So I will have to say that this comment is just a scare tactic to try to get more people to be a paid subscriber.


So the question we all need to look at is WC greedy? $20.00 per year to me is why too high when we all have other bills to pay... I don’t know how many paid members WC has
If it is in the 3,000 to 20,000 range then lower it to $1.00 and you will be amazed at the number of new PAID subscribers... and then give people the option to pay by check yes I said check and not all people have credit cards or even want them.


Now for if WC is @ the 0.1% or higher and not giving any money to the skinners
Then yes WC is just being greedy..
Reply #123 Top

I am not personally aware of the WC Subscriber numbers, and what follows are my own personal views and not the views of anyone else.

Until micropayments become an option, charging $1 for anything is not viable.

As for allowing cheque payment of $1, this is never going to be profitable as someone has to open the post and take the cheques to the bank.

Stardock do accept cheques for purchasing the software I believe (and I suspect WC subscriptions too)

Reducing prices for some things can work, but reducing prices can also increase the number of people who think it is so cheap it is not worth purchasing.  Picking a price is a very complicated thing.  Price it too high and few people buy, price it too low and you end up making a loss as the number of people willing to purchase may not increase in the way you expect.

Take WindowBlinds as an example.  If we halved the cost, would we get twice the number of purchasers.  The answer I suspect is no.  If we dropped it to $1, do you honestly think we would sell 20 as many copies?  If we somehow did then would we not also be having to deal with 20x the charge backs, messed up orders etc?

This works the other way too.  Putting WB up to say $30 would probably halve sales.

You also need to take into fixed costs per sale like store costs and other costs like account support costs and misc IT related costs from having more subscribers.  If each subscriber is paying only $1 then who is paying for the support when a user forgets their password and needs it reset?

You also overestimate the number of people who purchase software/services by a very large amount.

Reply #124 Top
Hi Neil! I'm with you Business 101. That's why when I purchase something like a premium skin, I also try to time it with some other purchase I've had in mind. This way Stardock and WinCustomize aren't having to process an $8 order for me.

So, the original question, does Stardock need WinCustomize? I think the answer is absolutely. I know from my own experience that: I have learned more in how to make use of the Stardock products, I have the opportunity to download from the large libraries and enjoy other peoples work, and I have the opportunity to participate in the forums. So clearly as a Stardock customer I see WinCustomize as a needed value added benefit to me.

So, does Stardock gain from WinCustomize? Again, I think the answer is absolutely. First, from what I mentioned is the important intangible called customer goodwill. How about economically? I think Stardock is working on that. I know I've happily made additional purchases. WinCustomize isn't yet an economic profit center as they say for Stardock but, can it do more to stand on its own 2 feet? It probably will. The answer to that will depend on how people respond to the marketing efforts.

What's the hesitation to a WinCustomize subscription? Its only $20 for a year. With that subscription I have downloaded about 850MB of great stuff. And, as I have said, I'm a happy customer. I'm sure there are many other happy customers here as well. So thanks Stardock, I appreciate WinCustomize!
Reply #125 Top
I just started being a subscribed and paid the $50 and got my friends into it so that makes 7 of us total or $350 in your pocket. I gotta tell ya we all think it was money well spent. Why cant you get a contract with Microsoft to skin Vista or some of there upcoming products that are coming out? Since there skins that come with the stock version of Windows is so bland. Have u approached them with the possibility? I think it would be worth a shot since u have such a vast database of skins already.