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Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?

Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?

Business vs. Community

https://www.wincustomize.com/Articles.aspx?AID=87967

There are some people who think that the moment someone starts a business that they instantly become greedy, money grubbing corporate robots.  But the reality is, most companies are privately held and those companies do things based on what motivated the stockholders.  In a private company wealth may only be a secondary motivator.

I can say as the principle shareholder in Stardock that accumulating wealth has never been my motivator. I want to do cool stuff. And I consider it my "talent" to be able to generally take things I enjoy doing and be able to do them as part of my "job".  Some things are done strictly because we think they're neat to do even though there's no remote business justification for it (JoeUser.com for instance).  We recently started doing PowerUser.tv too. There's no money to be made in podcasting (unless you're a mega player). But it's fun.

WinCustomize falls into a middle category.  Stardock makes software such as WindowBlinds, IconPackager, DesktopX, and so forth.  People who buy that software or are thinking of buying that software will want to see what can be done with it.  So in that sense, having some sort of gallery of content is necessary.  Statistically, most people hear about the software somewhere else or see a screenshot, download the trial version, and THEN start downloading skins after they've purchased it. It's not the other way around -- as a percent, few people discover our software through the skins first.

WinCustomize is a lot more than a skin gallery though.  It's a whole web community.  It's the largest - by far - site dedicated to downloading content to enhance your Windows desktop experience.  With over 22 million monthly visitors, it's one of the largest sites on the net period.  And it's safe to say that of the 22 million visitors, only a tiny tiny % actually have purchased (or will purchase) a Stardock product.

The growth of WinCustomize has been steady.  In December 2004, the site was getting around 14 million visitors per month. In September 2005, it got just about 22 million.  That's a very significant increase for such a short period of time.  Yet subscriptions to the site have declined.  That is, people who pay $20 to support the continued existence of the site and receive a number of (I think) pretty cool services. 

Some people have argued that WinCustomize has no business even trying to get people to buy subscriptions. Since Stardock "owns" it then Stardock should pay for everything because it's a "marketing" expense.  Running a site that gets 22+ million visitors per month is not like running some home page.  It takes rooms of servers and hundreds of megabits PER SECOND.  It also requires an IT staff, database developers and web developers.  You're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in expenses.

As a marketing expense, WinCustomize's value is pretty limited.  After all, DesktopX has been on WinCustomize since its founding and yet the wider world seems completely unaware of its existence.  You hear a lot about Konfabulator.  But little about DesktopX.  Why is that?  There's lots of reasons. But one of the root reasons is a lack of marketing.  A lack of ability to get the word out on DesktopX to get users and developers to try it out.  More developers doing things with it would mean more and better content which in turn would encourage more users to use it.  But in the end, Konfabulator ended up as the program people think of for adding mini-applets to their desktop.  And those who have heard of DesktopX are often unaware that it does a lot more such as build entire desktops and allow for desktop objects.  So how valuable is WC for marketing? Not much.  To be generous, I'd say $50k.  And that's just one example.

But WinCustomize currently costs over $300k per year to exist.  And in a year, it'll likely cost closer to $400k.  Advertising and subscriptions bring the cost down by around $100k. That leaves $200k left.  It WC worth $200k in marketing? Not on your life.  If Stardock had $200k in extra marketing dollars to spend each year, think of all the advertisements, high end PR firms, and community outreach programs it could have invested in?  

The point being, while WinCustomize has some value as a marketing resource, its value is pretty limited. The simple fact is that WinCustomize exists because of what I mentioned at the start -- Stardock, as a private company, can do things simply because it thinks it would be cool.  It cares about the skinning community and it thinks having a site like this is neat and worthwhile -- to a point.  Individuals have hobbies. Private companies have hobbies too (that's a big difference between private companies and publicly held companies).  But just as with personal hobbies, at some point they get too expensive to keep going.

To try to change things, Stardock has brought in two new people right away to help create more incentives for people to subscribe to WinCustomize -- more content for subscribers.  But odds are, things are going to start getting tighter for those who simply visit the site month after month who haven't contributed anything (on WC, skinners, even if they've not subscribed or bought anything are given access so that they are treated as subscribers).

Some things that come to mind:

  • People with no accounts will only be able to download things that have been uploaded in the past 48 hours and only 5 megabytes of content.
  • People without account will likely see a lot more ads. See www.gamespot.com for a good model.
  • People with accounts will be able to download up to 50 megabytes. After that they must become an SD customer or a subscriber.
  • People who have purchased a SD product (Object Desktop, CursorXP, etc.) will have unlimited downloads but there will be some skins that will only be available to subscribers.
  • SD customers will see fewer ads but they will see some ads.

These are just a few ideas floating around -- ideas submitted by users incidentally -- that we're seriously considering.  Since WC isn't paid for by ads, the # of monthly visitors is not as much of a goal as one might think.  If we could cut our traffic in half, we could probably save around $50k per year in expenses.  Another $50k would likely result from increase SD product purchases and/or subscriptions.  That would be a net difference of $100k.

There are plenty of other good skin sites out there people can visit. Here are a few: http://www.skinbase.org, http://lotsofskins.com, http://skins.deviantart.com/, http://www.skinz.org, http://www.customize.org.

Stardock - the company - needs sites for people to be able to download skins and themes for its software.  But it doesn't have to be WinCustomize.com. Ultimately, if the wider userbase doesn't or can't support WinCustomize as it exists today, then WinCustomize will evolve to be a site that caters more to those who can support it.  The current model for it is unsustainable.

63,370 views 134 replies
Reply #51 Top
Now, if it ends up that the non-payer can SEE this content, even admire the previews, etc, but cannot access it, being limited to what a skinner has deemed 'inferior', there's a fair to middling chance he will subscribe to unlock 'pandora's box'.



If that was the case then Stardock would be making money off artist's work, in our case off our client's intellectual property which i do not think would be acceptable.
Reply #52 Top

Jeff....read further...it'd be up to each skinner whether his works were 'restricted' to subscribed access...so in your case...or that of hosted commissioned works...you'd simply choose not to have them restricted that way.

It is NOT profiting off skinners' works...it is skinners' works downloads being paid for by those who do the downloading....and NOT by those who provide the facility FOR that downloading.

There's a significant difference/distinction....

Reply #53 Top
Jeff... thats how it is already, once users hit that 50 megabyte cap. If they see something of yours then, and really want it, they pay the money to get it as well as other skins. How else do subscribers justify paying? They want the skins that are on the site, so essentially, yes, WinCustomize (NOT Stardock) is recouping some of its expense.
Reply #54 Top
One thing is for sure.. If the site is that much of a burden to run, then why is everything the same 12 hours after my first post on this thread?

After all of the suggestions (most being easily implemented) I'm sure a happy medium could be reached.

Enforce the Unlimited account I suggested, or offer let's say 2 premium skins each month to the current subscription and I'd gladly pay the fees for subscription. But not at it's currently layout. (And I will hold true to this)

As an ObjectDesktop purchaser, I want to see this site successful as well and stick around, so for my contribution after alreadying sheeling out my $50.. I need more incentive as suggested above.

If some of these changes are implemented and the basic non-WC, non-Stardock person is still upset... Make the site exclusive to only registered SD software purchasers (For the area of software they purchaser ONLY, if OD then All) and of course current paying WC users and cut out the rest. Simple.

One things for sure, again, if it's that much of a burden.. I would expect to see some changes within 24 hours time to "get back on track" if you will...

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I need more incentive and access in a WC Subscription. Maybe seperate, but I've already paid enough into SD..
Reply #55 Top
Of course most of the ideas presented hinge on Skinner's posting their work exclusively on Wincustomize. Many people are ego or career driven and isolating themselves to WC will have big impact on that. Too many Skinners have sites of their own to distribute their work. That is where most scenarios fail.
Reply #56 Top
Of course most of the ideas presented hinge on Skinner's posting their work exclusively on Wincustomize. Many people are ego or career driven and isolating themselves to WC will have big impact on that. Too many Skinners have sites of their own to distribute their work. That is where most scenarios fail.


With skinners like yourself, mike bryant and JJ Ying to name a few which are probably 100% loyal.. Who cares about the rest? Without sounding like a jerk. I'd rather have what I'd consider "complete" skins from artists that make such than have lower grade ones anyways. I don't skin mainly because of time constraints and lack of personal creative ideas.. If I made a skin, would you care? Lol..
Reply #57 Top
Hmmm.. Sitting here and looking through the store (where I refuse to purchase from.. lol).. I realize most of them are older skins from the dinosaur times in this ever changing world. Perhpas... If premium skins are set with a fee but only for say.. 30 or 60 days?.. I would consider that plausable. If I am willing to wait 60 days for it to become free (yet perhaps exclusive to WC subscribers only) then I would consider that fair. Input anyone? In order for me to pay for a premium suite, I need something truly innovative that I will use for more than a few days and then change.
Reply #58 Top

Brad's points about the cost of running the site are not invalid, but I think he is understimating the value of this resource to the company's other products. I doubt very seriously if there are very many people who purchase an Object Desktop subscription, and then never download skins.

Even without a WinCustomize, there'd be places to download skins. Either other sites or Stardock would create specific, heavily moderated, libraries for its stuff.  But there's a lot more to WC than just libraries for its stuff.

WinAmp, for instance, doesn't host Media Player skins on its site for instance.

I think the community is likely to evolve to being a bit smaller but closer.  Regardless of what people think is fair or whatever, the current model is not sustainable.

Reply #59 Top
I think the community is likely to evolve to being a bit smaller but closer. Regardless of what people think is fair or whatever, the current model is not sustainable.


Then read through the suggestions and choose what is plausable for the site.. And change it. All talk, no action on some sites (not saying this one). Better yet, just change to what is to be the new way and ride with it.. No point to stir up attention.
Reply #60 Top
I became interested in "customization" soon after the purchase of my first computer. It came with MSDOS and Win 3.1. One of the first things I did was adjust my display properties (remember Plasma Power Savers)and the first "customization" program I purchased was IconMagic for Windows 3.1. I liked the program so much that when Windows 95 came out I ran a dual boot system just so I could continue to use IconMagic. By accident, I stumbled onto Stardock when I was looking for customization software and found WindowBlinds when it was in version 0.xx. I've been a rabid follower ever since, and have purchased many Stardock products.

For someone like me, that wasn't born with the creative gene, WinCustomize is a neccesary daily fix. The subscription rate is very reasonable when you compare it to going to the movies, and/or, buying music or a DVD.

I for one am "VERY GREATFUL" that Stardock is supporting WinCustomize. I've seen many customization web sites close over the years. WinCustomize has hung in there and gotten better and better. I SHOW my gratitude by PURCHASING a subsription. I HOPE OTHERS WHO FEEL AS I DO WILL HELP SUPPORT WINCUSTOMIZE TOO.
Reply #61 Top
You people are all bastards (not to insult) making me feel bad for not having a subscription. (talking to wife about it like my friend suggested getting something) "honey, I really need this." .. Reply.. "We'll see".. There you have it.. possibly. I hate you all and love you at the same time. Lol.
Reply #62 Top
What's $20.00 for a hobby or passion?
Half of the freeloaders will smoke or drink more than $ 30.00 today alone.


Exactly, $20 per year is but a drop in the ocean compared to that....so how about we say to those tight arsed freeloaders that the honeymoon period is over, subscriptions are required to access the content on this site.
Reply #63 Top

Also they should be warned about their limit and maybe see a graph when they click the download button.

A reminder and a graph....

Excellent idea!

Reply #64 Top

What's $20.00 for a hobby or passion?

It's nothing.  I get real tired of people complaining about $20.  I bet most of them put out $50 for a brand new game that they can play for less than 20 hours and never use again.  I went to Starbucks with my wife and the bill was about $20.

Reply #65 Top
WinAmp, for instance, doesn't host Media Player skins on its site for instance.



Whaaaaa...???
Reply #66 Top
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I need more incentive and access in a WC Subscription. Maybe seperate, but I've already paid enough into SD..


If you already pay anything to SD then you should not be worried about download limitations here at WC.

People keep complaining about how old the available premium skin/suites are in the SD Store but then again every time a new premium skin/theme is added to the store they still complain about artists charging for their work. So tell me how can SD please everyone?

If you can't afford something, then you must live without it. If your household income does not allows you to spend more than what you have, then there is no sense on telling/asking your wife what you "need" to have or what you want to aquire. But if you feel that you "MUST" have it, then you have to sacrifice the unnecessary things in your daily routine (that extra pack of cigarettes, that round of beers at the pub, etc) I guarantee you that you can gather $20.00 in a couple of days without putting a dent on the rest of your year expenses.

People need to start looking at WinCustomize as an 'All You Can Eat Buffet'
You pay $20.00 and you can eat all you want for a year. A YEAR. Most buffets charge that much for just a day.

When someone purchases a DVD player, the manufacturer doesn't give you a year worth of rental at your local Blockbuster.
If customizing your PC is a hobby to you, then you need to support the site that provides your hobby gadgets or you can simply create your own premium and compleat themes yourself.
Reply #67 Top
"If that was the case then Stardock would be making money off artist's work, in our case off our client's intellectual property which i do not think would be acceptable."


No more unacceptable than an art gallery making money off artists' work. If you can find a venue in real life where artists can come in, hang their art and give it away to anyone that wants it without having to pay for the privilege, point it out. I would imagine corporate interests would pee themselves if they could get their trademark hung all over private galleries without having to pay.

Wincustomize is worse, because this isn't just wear-and-tear on the carpet from traffic, each time someone downloads you work it creates operating costs for the "gallery." It would be akin to artists getting free gallery space AND expecting the gallery to photocopy art for the public for free.

Given your client's IP is already used to promote the site via the featured skins, etc., I don't see much difference.
Reply #68 Top
As a long time subscriber to Object Desktop and purchaser of several programs like CursorXP and ObjectDock Plus (as well as several of the exclusive themes and icon sets) I'm concerned that we might be biting off our nose to spite our face. How many potential users of Stardock products come here after seeing that "really cool skin" on so & so's machine? Limiting their access to the skins would only frustrate our ability to grow beyond our little community. I think that the application programs so be limited, so as to encourage users to buy the full-blown application in order to take advantage of all of the features that the programs can provide. And once you've started using these apps, it's a pain in the butt to use a computer that's not running them.

The skinning community has gone through a LOT of changes during the past few years as new applications have come along and older ones have died off. Many of the longtime skinners like Dangeruss have dropped completely off the map and many of the old Mac Kaleidoscope developers vanished when Apple introduced their own "appearance" control panel in Mac OS 8.x - it's likely that Vista will have some new tweaks that may make parts of Object Desktop and DesktopX less revolutionary. That's the way these things seem to work. Good ideas are incorporated (read stolen) into the next generation of the operating system and bad ideas die our without further development...
Reply #69 Top
Know what? I'm through with this discussion. It's drove me simple. (As if I'm not already) I had to sell crack for at least 3 weeks to afford the WC Subscription but I now have it. Hope you all are happy. ::cough:: frogboy.. I need to now live in my car and leech the internet via a 900 foot ethernet cable. lol.

I will have to say I was wrong though. I could get used to this WC Browser. Shows skins in a different way and I can now search the way I want to without limitation. I concur Dr. Sulu. lol.
Reply #70 Top

I just want to point one thing out to those who talk about $20 PER YEAR being a lot of money for a hobby.

World Of Warcraft costs $15 PER MONTH. It's a video game that has sold into the millions.  Players have to first purchase World of Warcraft which is $50 and there is no game outside the non-free world to play in. THAT is the real world.

At the end of the day, a tiny tiny % of WinCustomize's user base (Subscribers and to a lesser extent SD customers) are paying for a HUGE number of non-contributors.

That's why I think WC needs to evolve into a site that focuses much more on rewarding those who give back to it.  WC needs to be more of a community.  I don't favor shutting down WC and I don't see that as a scenario.  Instead, I see it where the skinners, the subscribers and the SD customers are given far more "stuff" or more to the point, NON skinners, non-subscribers and non-SD customers are given a lot LESS stuff than they get now.

Reply #71 Top
That's why I think WC needs to evolve into a site that focuses much more on rewarding those who give back to it. WC needs to be more of a community. I don't favor shutting down WC and I don't see that as a scenario. Instead, I see it where the skinners, the subscribers and the SD customers are given far more "stuff" or more to the point, NON skinners, non-subscribers and non-SD customers are given a lot LESS stuff than they get now.


And that about sums it all up.
Reply #72 Top
As one of the biggest contributors to this site, and one of the most downloaded skinners, I would happily make all my stuff (present and future) exclusive if Jafo's model came to fruition. I'm sure many of the other popular artists here would do the same to ensure that Wincustomize stays online. I believe it's time to ditch the freeloaders completely. More importantly, the front page of this site should change somewhat. It should feature the SOFTWARE available for purchase, with examples of what can be achieved with it. I think this is an important point because, other companies that sell software always make the purchase of the software the focus of the site, with downloads of other stuff, like skins etc, a secondary feature. That way the customer is drawn into the community via PURCHASING the software. As Stardock is a seperate site, that doesn't happen here. Maybe it's time to make skins available ONLY as a link from the Stardock site, as a kind of community section? And, $20 isn't much to pay for a subscription or a program, I pay $64 a year for my daughter to play some stupid "ToonTown" game from Disney!!                                                                                                                                             
Reply #73 Top
Even without a WinCustomize, there'd be places to download skins. Either other sites or Stardock would create specific, heavily moderated, libraries for its stuff. But there's a lot more to WC than just libraries for its stuff.


This is a point I was planning to make after I read this comment.

That ignores the fact that Stardock existed for years before there even was a Wincustomize. Why does the site you get your skins from and upload to have to be owned by Stardock to make the software valid?


Way back when I would not have purchased WindowBlinds is Stardock had not had thier Gallery. NO it wasn't Wincustomize but it did offer a stable place to download skins. And yes there was Skinz.org ( the real one) at the time and it was great but it's job was not to act as a skin archive for stardock's products. Stardock will have to have a database of skins no matter what and Brad I know you realize that. Wincustomize is nice but I wish sometimes it was still like it was back then, with all the conversation taking place on IRC or the newsgroup servers......

I also think that Stardocks sites should be brought together under Stardock.net and I should be able to purchase different levels of "Stardock subscriptions" For example I should be able to renew my OD sub. and add Joeuser, Wincustomize and Total gaming at a discount.

I really wish that I cold make one payment to stardock a year and have access to everything that I want.

Ah hell Brad,
I have lots of Ideas on this, If you want me to type them out and make sense of them drop me a email.

Basic is to make Stardock.net the hub for everything stardock.
Reply #74 Top
As a further end note on my behalf...

In this thread you see my earlier posts of being close-minded about the WC subscription. Mainly, because I wanted to "figure" I was correct about my beliefs of what it entailed and would not submit to otherwise. I then realized, "hey, it's 1 pizza from Papa Johns, Pizza Hut or Dominos." (At least in my area) and decided to give it a try just for the sake of it and helping a community I want to see stick around.

With all of this being said.. If you can't wake up and see that it's worth the $19.95 via my errors and posts about it's features... Then you won't wake up at all, and I'd suggest your removal from the community.

I'm to the point now, I don't even care about the 2 premium suite downloads. I wish it was more, but seeing I already got "bang for my buck" I'm not going to moan about it anymore.

When you have a WC Subscription you have total integration with ObjectDesktop (If you have it). If not, you still have total integration with the Stardock programs you do own, via the WC Web Browser.

If that's not enough for the "consideration" at least of the subscription then I don't know what is?..

Figure this:

You pay $19.95 for 1 year. Then next time you renew.. At the same $19.95 you get 2 years. (I'm broke and can still afford about $10 a year) That's what? Less than $1 per month after you renew.

So basic point is....

Anyone can afford a measily $1.67 a month (roughly)

And if you can't, then you're doing something wrong.

Shell out the $19.95 or go to different sites with not as organized content, with the same subscription rates for less features. Or if a free site, no support at all for the skins.

We won't miss you. (At least speaking for my behalf)

I support the "cut out the leechers" idea.
Reply #75 Top
as a OB buyer, the incentive beside the coherence between the OD components was the integration with Wincustomize and not being forced to hunt the web for new skins especially suites.

Stardock should not care about freeloaders. If people are not ready for either subscribing to WC or buying OD components, they do not care about Stardock and will most likely favor any other "free" solutions (like konfabulator for the widgets).

Make WC part of the OD services, I think so. You will only lose "free customers" and "free customers" are useless at the end of the day.