That would depend on you own ability to fashion tools and weapons wouldn't it?

Or how fast you can run.  Obviously, fruits, vegetables, eggs, and fish would be an easier way to sustain yourself....especially if you didn't have salt to preserve meat

I have, what's wrong with it? I grew up raising vealers on our family dairy farm.

Taking them away from their mom early, raising them in tiny little houses, and making them anemic to make their meat tender.....yeah, I see how that is ethical.  They don't even have a chance to live at all. 

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see where it didn't work. I'm not saying that it can not happen. IE: guy has hangover from night before, sick, etc.... But that is not on a regular basis is it?

 

Unfortunately, it happens all the time.  The longer that a person works in a slaughterhouse, the less they care.  The general population doesn't care because they never see it.  Out of sight, out of mind.  People just want to believe that it doesn't happen all the time. 

14 plants slaughter half of all cattle in the country, and about 10 plants slaughter half of the country's 101 million hogs.  Think about how many animals are slaughtered per day to keep up with that demand?  Do you *really* think that they care if the animals end up being tortured?  The top hog plant kills over 150,000 hogs per week.  That is about 15 hogs PER MINUTE.  Do you think that they will stop the line if a hog is being "stubborn"?  No- they just do what they can to keep up with production. 

And while I'm at it....how would "you" do it?

Well, obviously, I wouldn't do it at all   But, if the laws were enforced, and plants weren't allowed to produce at such an unrealistic pace, slaughter would be more humane.  The animals should have the right to be transported in decent conditions, not crowded so much that it can suffocate them.  Insurance providers should not cover loss of animals in transit (which is why the carriers don't care if the animal dies).  Slaughterhouse should get *huge* fines if there are any failed inspections.

There are laws in place to protect the animals, but they are not enforced.  When was the last time you heard about a slaughterhouse getting in trouble?  They don't.  The inspectors don't want to get into a battle, and the consumers doesn't want to see where their meat comes from.

One of my favorite quotes (by Paul and Linda McCartney): "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian."   Nobody wants to see what really happens in there.  We just want our neat little packages of meat that we pick up at the store.

Sorry Karma, I ain't buying it any more than your buying what I'm selling.

plants weren't allowed to produce at such an unrealistic pace

Just an FYI...plants don't have a choice about the pace. It's a "consumer" driven industry. Ya know, supply and demand? We demand and they have to supply!

"Obviously, fruits, vegetables, eggs, and fish would be an easier way to sustain yourself....especially if you didn't have salt to preserve meat"

Sorry, Karma, but with that I have to open my mouth again. Agriculture grew up at the same time civilization did. The only reason humanity was able to start feeding itself this way is because started allocating labor, and divying up the result. I don't think there are many people alive in America today that could sustain their family on a farm they run by themselves without having a good stock of animal protien to supplement it.

Where do you guys live? There's a reason the areas with the most vegetarians have similar climates, even today. I find it very, very hard to believe that if you were dumped out in the forest you'd have an easier time gathering fruits, vegetables, and eggs than killing a squirrel. I think it would be very, very rare to end up stranded in a place in the world where enough food to keep you alive is easy to gather.

The fish thing I can agree with, but history is full of accounts of people who starved at sea. .

Lets not forget, folks, that there are areas in the world where it would have been completely, totally impossible to be a vegetarian up until the last hundred years. I dare anyone here to blame someone in Iceland 100 years ago for not being a vegetarian.

Also, I think some people who call meat a "convienence" really haven't added up the cost in most of the world of feeding a family on nothing but fresh vegetables.

It's a matter of cost/benefit.

If it costs you more energy to collect the nourishment than the nourishment provides, then it isn't going to work. Consider what you would expend preparing the soil, planting, tending, and picking enough, say, beans to sustain a family of 4 in protien for a year. Then, one bad bout of weather and your family starves.

Is it possible for 4 people to even do that, anyway? I don't beleive so. Maybe you could make the point that the cost/benefit evens out in tropical areas, but even the hunter/gatherers there spend more time hunting than gathering there.

This is an argument between theory and practice. I hear a lot of vegan theory, but I don't see much reality. When I do, it usually comes from people who happen to be well-positioned enough to undertake it.

Sorry Karma, I ain't buying it any more than your buying what I'm selling.

 

I thought that you would have a better rebuttal than that.  That was really disappointing.......

 

Just an FYI...plants don't have a choice about the pace. It's a "consumer" driven industry. Ya know, supply and demand? We demand and they have to supply!

If meat was more expensive, would there be as high of a demand?  If you had to pay $3.00 for a McD's hamburger, would people eat so much of it?  If a pound of hamburger was $7.00, would people consume so much, or would they start using other food sources?

Plants do have a choice- but greed trumps all.  Do you really think that people need to eat so much meat?  Americans eat more meat than any other nation.  We also have more heart disease than any other nation.  I assume that they have nothing to do with each other, right? 

Sorry, Karma, but with that I have to open my mouth again. Agriculture grew up at the same time civilization did.

You are separating discussions.  That whole thread was about humans being "the apex predator".  It has nothing to do with how the modern food industry got to that point.

Also, I think some people who call meat a "convienence" really haven't added up the cost in most of the world of feeding a family on nothing but fresh vegetables.

I called meat a food choice.  And, it is.  How many pounds of grain are needed to raise a cow to slaughter?  If you planted soy instead, how much soy protein would you have without the need to feed it to something that you slaughtered?

Vegetarians don't live on just veggies.  They eat fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, and legumes.  It doesn't take many nuts or legumes to equal the protein in meat.

Have you guys ever looked at what other nations eat?  Ever wonder why authentic asian cuisine has so many vegetarian options?  And, those same areas have really high populations- so how do they do it if meat is the only sustainable protein? 

"Ever wonder why authentic asian cuisine has so many vegetarian options? "

Have you? It's called climate. Try raising all those fruits, nuts, and legumes in the areas where they raise the grain to feed the cows. Ever tried to sustain yourself just on soybeans? You'll forgive me if I discount the ease one has paying someone to cart all those fruits and legumes to you. Not everyone is fortunate enough to do be able to do so.

As I said, go to northern Europe and tell them it is easier to farm for a vegan family than it is to raise livestock. This is theory vs. practice. You can make the argument that it is more efficient to feed your family on vegetables than it is on meat, but honestly there's several thousand years of practice working against you in reference to the majority of the habitable land on earth.

My family had a small farm on my grandmother's land when I was a child. I know what it would have taken to feed our small family of three from that year-round. The idea that it is somehow more difficult to feed pigs and cows is, frankly, a joke, and that's why we eat the pork and beef that we enjoy.

Otherwise, economics would have sent us in the other direction.

Plants do have a choice- but greed trumps all. Do you really think that people need to eat so much meat? Americans eat more meat than any other nation. We also have more heart disease than any other nation. I assume that they have nothing to do with each other, right?

No actually they don't. If they don't supply the demand then guess what? They're out of business.

Have you guys ever looked at what other nations eat? Ever wonder why authentic asian cuisine has so many vegetarian options? And, those same areas have really high populations- so how do they do it if meat is the only sustainable protein?

When was the last time you looked at an asian cookbook? You'll see far more recipes for chicken and pork than you will pure vegtable recipes. Chicken being the big one over there followed by pork. They don't eat a lot of beef because they don't have the required room to raise it. And don't try to tell me about raising chickens compared to veggies. It ain't flying.

Americans eat more meat than any other nation. We also have more heart disease than any other nation. I assume that they have nothing to do with each other, right?

And the answer to that is no. It does however have a whole lot to do with all the saturated fat that we consume.

 

No actually they don't. If they don't supply the demand then guess what? They're out of business.

People would quit eating meat?  Did people quit buying gas because the prices went up?  No, instead, people are trying to find ways of using less of it.

Have you? It's called climate. Try raising all those fruits, nuts, and legumes in the areas where they raise the grain to feed the cows.

What is America's excuse now, though?  We have automated farms, and all sorts of ways of efficiently raising produce.  Any land that grows grain for cows can grow grain for humans.  The same lands can alternate grain and soy to maintain soil quality (soy grows in the same climates and conditions as grain).  What is the point of growing all the grain for cows to eat then to slaughter if you could just grow soy?  It seems like harvesting one crop that is sent to market is more economical than harvesting a crop to feed to an animal, then raising the animal to slaughter and sell. 

When was the last time you looked at an asian cookbook?

Quite often.  The ones I have seen, and all the restaurants that I have been to, have *many* vegetarian based dishes.  And, the authentic dishes that do have meat in them use it as more of a compliment than that whole meal.  They don't sit down to a 10 oz steak and mashed potatoes as a meal.  They also use a lot of rice.  Rice mixed with veggies forms a complete protein. 

And the answer to that is no. It does however have a whole lot to do with all the saturated fat that we consume

Are you sure about that one?  Did you actually do any research? Monounsaturated fat is one of the most linked fats to heart disease.  Where do you find the most of them come from in American diets? Beef and dairy products.

No actually they don't. If they don't supply the demand then guess what? They're out of business. People would quit eating meat? Did people quit buying gas because the prices went up? No, instead, people are trying to find ways of using less of it.

No they wouldn't quit eating meat. You seem to be missing a very important step in the equation. "The Store"! If the plant can't supply the demand then the store buys from some other plant! If that happens enough times the plant loses too many orders and goes bankrupt. As far as your first assertion goes....argue it with the American Heart Association. Although I will give you the bit about dairy products, cholesterol is your "biggest" killer! The connection your talking about is between "saturated"fats and cholesterol

In fact, all of the behaviors that you probably associate with heart disease or heart attack — such as having high blood pressure, smoking, being overweight, eating foods high in fat and cholesterol, not exercising and having diabetes — can also cause heart failure.

More recently, using 14-year follow-up data from the Nurses’ Health Study, Hu and colleagues [14] conducted detailed prospective analysis of dietary fat and CHD among 80,082 women aged 34 to 59. The study was particularly powerful because of large sample sizes and repeated assessments of diet. Hu et al. found a weak positive association between saturated fat intake and risk of CHD, but a significant and strong positive association with intake of trans fatty acids. Five percent of energy from saturated fat, compared with equivalent energy from carbohydrates, was associated with a 17 percent greater risk of CHD (relative risk=1.17, 95 percent confidence interval 0.97–1.41, p=0.10). Compared with equivalent energy from carbohydrates, the relative risk for two percent of energy from trans fat was 1.93 (1.43–2.61, p < 0.001); for five percent of energy from monounsaturated fat, 0.81 (0.65–1.00, p=0.05); and for five percent energy from polyunsaturated fat, 0.62 (0.46–0.85, p=0.002). Total fat was intake not significantly related to risk (for five percent energy 1.02, 0.97–1.07, p=0.55). It was estimated that replacement of five percent of energy from saturated fat by unsaturated fats would reduce risk by 42 percent (23–56, p < 0.001), and replacement of two percent of energy from trans fat by unhydrogenated unsaturated fats would reduce risk 53 percent (34–67, p < 0.001) (Fig. 1). These findings challenge the widely recommended low-fat high-carbohydrate diets because they suggest that replacing saturated and trans fats with unhydrogenated unsaturated fats is more effective in preventing CHD than reducing overall fat intake.

When was the last time you looked at an asian cookbook? Quite often. The ones I have seen, and all the restaurants that I have been to, have *many* vegetarian based dishes. And, the authentic dishes that do have meat in them use it as more of a compliment than that whole meal. They don't sit down to a 10 oz steak and mashed potatoes as a meal. They also use a lot of rice. Rice mixed with veggies forms a complete protein.

Well, tell ya what. I just went in my kitchen and randomly pulled down 4 oriental (asian influence) cookbooks from my extensive collection including one by "Martin Yang" a renown oriental chef. I did the math and guess what? WITHOUT fail EVERY book contained at least 75% of the recipes that had some kind of meat in them whether it was fish, chicken, beef, pork or some type of seafood. Only 25% of the recipes in any given book were veg only. So where does that leave your theory now?

Wrong! Wrong! WRONG!! One is done to live (meat eater) the other is not.

Exactly right.

As far as reasoning with them, remember, individuals and groups are different. Reasoning with Peta itself sure, reasoning with extremist members, ummmm not so much. But I'm going from personal experiance in reading posts, as appossed to articals and such.

I would be glad to talk to PETA members in leadership (one of my friends is a PETA member, just not on the loony side).  But they are of a single midset and dont talk to ones that will not accept the company line.  Hence, I have no use for them.

If they were rational, I would be one of their first supporters!  I do beleive in the ethical treatment of animals.  Just not their lost in space ideas.

since Myrrander hasn't even been present on this thread for a couple of days

Philo, Myrrander does not like me so he avoids my threads.

And let me just say that drguy is not "a new buddy." We have enjoyed an amicable, if often debate filled, friendship since I started here. And let me just say, its nice to debate someone who isn't constantly looking over every shoulder he has, taking a magnifying glass to the computer screen in an effor to find the next attempt at "baiting" him.

Baker, I find Philo to be a very worthy and well written adversary, and you to be an excellant writer.  I dont know Philo from you, but I agree with you more.  However, when I am wrong, I say it.  I did not mean for my appology to be construed as a capitulation to Philo.  WHile I agree with him on somethings, I dont agree with him on many.

Dont mistake an appology for a capitulation.  I have not changed my views.  But I do admit I when I am wrong.  And one day, should you make a mistake, I would think you would do the same.

Just to clarify, I was not attempting to compare killing a cow to an abortion. The analogy was intended to challenge an argument form, not to equate humans with animals. My point was that if you take an argument of the form "x is y", where x=meat and y=murder,

Glad to hear that.  Murder is the intentional shortenting of a sentient life.  WHile PETA may think that animals are sentient, that is a pipe dream.  They have no conception of self or awareness.  Altho I do know that we instill that upon the ones we love.

As for abortion, that is for another thread.

Wrong as well. We don't have to eat meat to live. We eat meat because we like it. At least I do.

No, we eat meat to survive as we are omnivors.  It is only recently that science has come up with alternatives to replace the meat in our diet.  Howver our ancestors did not have the benefit of that science.

Your right on that so I'll change it. One is done on the most part for convenience (abortion) the other is not.

Only recently in both cases.  IN past times, it was essential.  The legumes we can get proteins from did not exist in abundance.  you did not eat meat in olden times, and you would die.

Sorry again, Doc, for diverting your post, it won't happen again. If you want to delete this feel free, but I just get tired the tweedle-dumb's war of attrition. People need a stepladder for their intellectual ego sometimes, I suppose.

No, you are not diverting and I am sorry I have neglected this one for a few days.  You are on point and topical.  And right.

The current way that most slaughter houses run. They are supposed to knock the animal unconscious with one quick blow (they put a rod in cows brains to do this). However, it doesn't always work, and the animal ends up being fully aware of getting its throat slit and then bleeding to death while hanging from one leg. And, worse, some of them don't even bleed out by the time they start getting skinned. I also don't find pigs being crammed into a trailer and being half froze to death in the winter on their way to slaughter as "humane".

I agree with that, and I would be at the forefront to fix it.  However PETA drives me to the other extreme just to counter their stupidity.

We didn't eat meat to gain reason-we eat meat because it's a cheap food source

No, that is wrong.  It is more expensive given the grains that must be fed the meat.  And until recently, we had no alternative to meat.  Now we do, but that does not mean we should give it up.

most anthropoligist agree doc, meat eating contribuyed to brain growth, in early man {cept fer the early democrats} heh heh

MM, I will defer to you on that.  For in truth, I have never heard of that.  But steaks do make my brain work better!

totally agree with you on how we treat our animals before and during slaughter, it's cruel and we should be ashamed.

You know, if PETA was sane, they would have a lot bigger following.  How about we start SANE PETA.

Someone Against Negative Eedgits!

I'd say meat eating is done entirely for convenience; and I don't agree that abortion is done mostly for convenience, but that's not a discussion for this thread.

I will say that is not true.  In the US, it may be now.  But most of the world does not have access to our protein substitutes.

I typed a response to Baker's rambling indictment of me, but the page wouldn't load and I don't intend to retype all of it. Contrary to Baker's beliefs, my life does not revolve around him. Here's hoping he actually means it this time when he says he will never talk to me again.

I really hope neither of you mean that.  And it is just the heat of the debate.

how veal bulls are treated prior to slaughter I have, what's wrong with it? I grew up raising vealers on our family dairy farm.

Guess I am going off the farm as I will not eat veal for the very reason of how they are raised.  That is my personal choice, and has been for most of my life.

One of my favorite quotes (by Paul and Linda McCartney): "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." Nobody wants to see what really happens in there. We just want our neat little packages of meat that we pick up at the store.

I dont agree with Paul (I am a george fan).  But I do for the most part agree with you.  I guess that is why PETA upsets me so much.  I would love to be an advocate for humane slaughtering, but not their extremism.