dear karma, your comment about where would humans be without reason, and the ability to create weapons, is about as valid as me saying where would crocs be with no teeth, or great white sharks be if they could not swim.

The FACT is we are the apex predator and it's because we ate meat in early developement. {cavemen} because of meat eating our brains grew, because of brains getting bigger we could reason, because of reason we could create.

Reason is the natural tool of human beings, just as the trunk is a natural tool of elephants and sonar is a natural tool of bats and dolphins. And that's why we're at the top of the food chain: because the ability to reason, and to choose our course of action rather than obeying blind instinct, trumps all other survival characteristics we know of. Of course, it's the ability to choose the wrong thing instead of the right thing that gets us into so much trouble and may spell our eventual doom. I'm telling you, instinct never looked so good--where can I get some?

I think we are getting very philosophical, but good points!

They're trying to convert people!!! They're going about it the wrong way, certainly, but if they simply insist that we leave them alone they're not doing anything to achieve their goal.

I would expect them to come to that realization when they get a concussion from beating their head against a wall!

Animal Liberation Front (ALF), a violent, underground group of fanatics who plant firebombs in restaurants, destroy butcher shops, and torch research labs.

But PETA does contribute to ALF and ELF.

So you don't think that comparing food animals to holocaust victims and slaves makes a mockery of the holocaust, slavery, and every human being that suffered and died as a result? I do.

I do as well.

What a load. They have every intention of mocking and insulting, as evidenced by the way they operate. YOU can't say "Meat is Murder" without villifying meat eaters. As far as I am concerned, if I ever survive a plane crash in the mountains, the PETA members get eaten first.

Glad I am not PETA then!

because of meat eating our brains grew,

I wont go that far, but God or evolution made us meat eaters for a reason.  And to deny it is to deny what human beings are.  We can be humane about it, as I think we should.  But to deny it is just plain stupid.

So you don't think that comparing food animals to holocaust victims and slaves makes a mockery of the holocaust, slavery, and every human being that suffered and died as a result?

Good point.

They have every intention of mocking and insulting, as evidenced by the way they operate. YOU can't say "Meat is Murder" without villifying meat eaters.

Kind of how you can't say "abortion is murder" without villifying every doctor, nurse, patient, town, contractor, carpenter, painter, electrician, board member, politician, mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, cousin, nephew and friend who supported a loved one or made possible for a person to carry out a very difficult decision. Right?

You're taking PETA's protests way too personally. As a meat eater, you are not a murderer. As a pro-choice person and a meat eater, I am not a murderer. PETA's indictment is directed at a lifestyle (meat eating), which many people follow and believe in. A pro-lifer's indictment is directed at a belief (pro-choice) which many people follow and believe in. Two indictments, both made by the perhaps the worst means possible, but both aimed at lifestyles and beliefs, not people. Your ideas are not who you are. Neither one of us is meat eating. It is something we do, something we enjoy, but in the end, it is merely one of a million things that make us who we are. Quite frankly, I don't feel insulted when one of my beliefs is debated, no matter how callously or rudely my opponent may choose to act. That might just be me, but that's why I don't feel that the "Meat is murder" campaign is particularly insulting.


And I realize that you made the same point as LW about it being disrespectful to compare the killing of animals to slavery and the holocaust, although I'd appreciate it if you could keep from calling us asinine in the future.

I'll call whatever asinine I find to be asinine, and I'll thank you to stop this constant effort to police what I say. If you have a problem with my behavior, feel free to use your troll button, and tell an admin, a.k.a. someone with authority who I give a damn what they think. Anyway, since your pal Myrrander is among the disrespectful and insulting human beings I have ever met, and you have nothing but hell yeahs for him, I doubt I am going to take your stance on decency very seriously.

No, if you both contract and benefit from murder you are a party to murder, right? If you pay someone to kill something so you can eat it, I can't imagine how you could be blameless in the murder. PETA is more than welcome to believe that and preach it from the rooftops. For that reason I have the right to state openly I think they are idiots for believing it.

I don't know why you keep bringing up abortion, I guess you're just wanting to get something else started. I do note that your new buddy Doc doesn't seem to have a problem with that little bit of "off topic" junk coming up over and over. I'm not going to bite, though, since you obviously know how I feel about it or you wouldn't be baiting me.

Kind of how you can't say "abortion is murder" without villifying every doctor, nurse, patient, town, contractor, carpenter, painter, electrician, board member, politician, mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, cousin, nephew and friend who supported a loved one or made possible for a person to carry out a very difficult decision. Right?

Sorry, I will not go there.  To me, Abortion is MUrder.  I do not foist it upon JU, but to me there is no other way of looking at it.  So I would answer yes.  To those how perform it. Why?  Because I believe life begins at conception.

Will I execute the death penalty for it?  No, because I know it is not the law of the land.  just as I am not calling for Michael Schiavo's execution.

But I am also not Klingon, so the sins of the father are not visited upon the family.

We do not hang the family of a murderer for his or her sins.  Nor do we do it with abortion.  They have to answer to their own God.  So leave off the relatives in the next analogy.

I don't know why you keep bringing up abortion, I guess you're just wanting to get something else started. I do note that your new buddy Doc doesn't seem to have a problem with that little bit of "off topic" junk coming up over and over. I'm not going to bite, though, since you obviously know how I feel about it or you wouldn't be baiting me.

Actually, that is another blog.  And I am not a new Buddy.  I respect him as much as I respect you.  I think that this is wholly evil in the sense it cheapens the true travesty against humanity. And I dont think thaT comparing it to Abortion is a valid analogy.  As I said.

Unlike PETA, while I am wholly against abortion, I am not going down their bastard logic to equate it with the Holocaust or the Slave trade.  I will say that it cheapens life, and until people can understand that, we will always have post partum abortions as NARAL has already advocated.

Kind of how you can't say "abortion is murder" without villifying every doctor, nurse, patient, town, contractor, carpenter, painter, electrician, board member, politician, mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, cousin, nephew and friend who supported a loved one or made possible for a person to carry out a very difficult decision. Right?

Wrong! Wrong! WRONG!! One is done to live (meat eater) the other is not.

but PETA compares it to the Underground Railroad and the French Resistance. More than 20 years after its inception, PETA continues to hire convicted ALF militants and funds their legal defense. In at least one case, court records show that Ingrid Newkirk herself was involved in an ALF arson.

But PETA does contribute to ALF and ELF.

I know, and I said so much, in the same paragraph you quoted.

As far as reasoning with them, remember, individuals and groups are different. Reasoning with Peta itself sure, reasoning with extremist members, ummmm not so much. But I'm going from personal experiance in reading posts, as appossed to articals and such.

I'll call whatever asinine I find to be asinine, and I'll thank you to stop this constant effort to police what I say. If you have a problem with my behavior, feel free to use your troll button, and tell an admin, a.k.a. someone with authority who I give a damn what they think. Anyway, since your pal Myrrander is among the disrespectful and insulting human beings I have ever met, and you have nothing but hell yeahs for him, I doubt I am going to take your stance on decency very seriously.

Sorry, I can't help it if I disagree with most of the sheer idiocy that comes out of your head. Like I told you before, I could care less about points so I could care less about troll buttons, and I like intelligent debate (and I use the term loosely when it comes to you) so I'm not gonna go run to the administrators every time you say something dumb. And since Myrrander hasn't even been present on this thread for a couple of days, I'm gonna assume you bringing him up has something to do with you thinking that he and I and Champas are all out to get you. Boo! Did you jump?

No, if you both contract and benefit from murder you are a party to murder, right? If you pay someone to kill something so you can eat it, I can't imagine how you could be blameless in the murder. PETA is more than welcome to believe that and preach it from the rooftops. For that reason I have the right to state openly I think they are idiots for believing it.

It seems to me that the problem isn't that PETA believes that meat is murder, but that you do, and feel guilty for it. You're a meat eater. You pay someone to kill something so you can eat it. You can't imagine how you could be blameless in the act. Your right to state what you think was never questioned here: But why call PETA idiots for stating "meat is murder", when your previous statement all but says that they're right?

I don't know why you keep bringing up abortion, I guess you're just wanting to get something else started. I do note that your new buddy Doc doesn't seem to have a problem with that little bit of "off topic" junk coming up over and over. I'm not going to bite, though, since you obviously know how I feel about it or you wouldn't be baiting me.

Yeah, I've brought up abortion, um...once on this thread that started...four days ago. Yeah, I can't let that go can I? And I mentioned it as part of an analogy, the second paragraph (and main explanation) of which you seem to have decided not to read. I will hold steadfast to my belief that my opinions, be they about abortion, meat eating, religion, evolution, string theory, relativity, or time travel are not who I am. So I'm sorry, but "meat is murder" does not offend me. I think it's wrong, I disagree with it, but it does not offend me.

And let me just say that drguy is not "a new buddy." We have enjoyed an amicable, if often debate filled, friendship since I started here. And let me just say, its nice to debate someone who isn't constantly looking over every shoulder he has, taking a magnifying glass to the computer screen in an effor to find the next attempt at "baiting" him.

Abortion is MUrder.

And I dont think thaT comparing it to Abortion is a valid analogy.

Just to clarify, I was not attempting to compare killing a cow to an abortion. The analogy was intended to challenge an argument form, not to equate humans with animals. My point was that if you take an argument of the form "x is y", where x=meat and y=murder, and take it personally every time you hear it, you're gonna be living with a lot of guilt for a lot of your life. There are more philosophical and case specific things to take into consideration, and if you're going to villify everyone involved in something because of a simplistic and ultimately flawed argument of the form "x is y", you're eventually gonna end up calling the whole world, or a sizeable portion of it, evil.

One is done to live (meat eater) the other is not.

Wrong as well. We don't have to eat meat to live. We eat meat because we like it. At least I do.

One is done to live (meat eater) the other is not. Wrong as well. We don't have to eat meat to live. We eat meat because we like it. At least I do.

Your right on that so I'll change it. One is done on the most part for convenience (abortion) the other is not.

"It seems to me that the problem isn't that PETA believes that meat is murder, but that you do, and feel guilty for it. You're a meat eater.

OH, sorry, I thought that was the whole friggin point of this blog. If you and champas don't want to call likening the meat industry to the holocaust 'mocking', then live in your little world. If you don't want to believe they intend to imply culpability on the part of meat eaters, fine. That seems to be the point of Dr. Guy's blog, though, so you'll forgive me if I don't pattern my thoughts after yours.

"And since Myrrander hasn't even been present on this thread for a couple of days, I'm gonna assume you bringing him up has something to do with you thinking that he and I and Champas are all out to get you."

I do sense some sort of girlish infatuation. I've been in arguments like this online for years. Eventually some generic 'thinker' gets his underwear in a wad, and decides I'm not at all what he thinks I should be. Then he starts some idiotic farce like Monty Python's "Argument Sketch", and no matter what I post, he has to find some little nuance to be outraged about.

So continue to be a butthead, or not, I don't care. I just want you to know that nothing you say is going to effect the ideas I express, or how I express them. That'll be the last time I address you.

**

Sorry again, Doc, for diverting your post, it won't happen again. If you want to delete this feel free, but I just get tired the tweedle-dumb's war of attrition. People need a stepladder for their intellectual ego sometimes, I suppose.

And btw what would "you" consider inhumane slaughtering?

The current way that most slaughter houses run.  They are supposed to knock the animal unconscious with one quick blow (they put a rod in cows brains to do this).  However, it doesn't always work, and the animal ends up being fully aware of getting its throat slit and then bleeding to death while hanging from one leg.  And, worse, some of them don't even bleed out by the time they start getting skinned.

I also don't find pigs being crammed into a trailer and being half froze to death in the winter on their way to slaughter as "humane".

dear karma, your comment about where would humans be without reason, and the ability to create weapons, is about as valid as me saying where would crocs be with no teeth, or great white sharks be if they could not swim.

Crocs are born with teeth, great sharks are born being able to swim.  I have met many people born with the inability to reason.

You have obviously missed the point- if you were dropped in the wild, what food would you be able to get by yourself?  Humans are pretty pathetic without their artificial ways of obtaining food.

If we are so great, and have the ability to reason so well, why do we still employ such disgusting methods of obtaining our food?  Have you ever seen how veal bulls are treated prior to slaughter?  Have you ever been to a turkey farm?

If this is the best we can do, humans are truly sad.  But, our greed of having lots and lots of cheep meat leads to unethical ways that animals are treated.  It's pure greed.

The FACT is we are the apex predator and it's because we ate meat in early developement. {cavemen} because of meat eating our brains grew, because of brains getting bigger we could reason, because of reason we could create.

So...if they cavemen didn't have reason and ate meat, how does reason and meat eating relate now?

We didn't eat meat to gain reason-we eat meat because it's a cheap food source.  Over time, people found that meat had more calories and you didn't have to consume as much meat as you did veggies and fruits to stay alive.  Just out of pure survival we ate meat.  However, you don't need meat to live.  You need protein.  But, anything that was ever living (including plants) has protein in it.  People eat meat because they like it.  But, it's not needed.  It's nothing more than a food choice.

There will come a time that eating meat won't be so fashionable.  Meat is not an economical food source as our world population grows.

87 by Dr. Guy Wednesday, August 10, 2005

because of meat eating our brains grew, I wont go that far, but God or evolution made us meat eaters for a reason. And to deny it is to deny what human beings are. We can be humane about it, as I think we should. But to deny it is just plain stupid.

most anthropoligist agree doc, meat eating contribuyed to brain growth, in early man {cept fer the early democrats} heh heh

dear karma, is that not the whole point, crocs have teeth, we have weapons because we knew early on a human is no match for most big animals bare handed.

Of couse early man did nOT eat meat to gain reason, he ate meat because it could be readily available, but the facts are because of meat eating, mans brain grew.

I totally agree with you on how we treat our animals before and during slaughter, it's cruel and we should be ashamed.

One is done on the most part for convenience (abortion) the other is not.

I'd say meat eating is done entirely for convenience; and I don't agree that abortion is done mostly for convenience, but that's not a discussion for this thread.

I typed a response to Baker's rambling indictment of me, but the page wouldn't load and I don't intend to retype all of it. Contrary to Baker's beliefs, my life does not revolve around him. Here's hoping he actually means it this time when he says he will never talk to me again.

***I know this is off topic, doc, feel free to delete it.

You have obviously missed the point- if you were dropped in the wild, what food would you be able to get by yourself?

That would depend on you own ability to fashion tools and weapons wouldn't it?

how veal bulls are treated prior to slaughter

I have, what's wrong with it? I grew up raising vealers on our family dairy farm.

And btw what would "you" consider inhumane slaughtering? The current way that most slaughter houses run. They are supposed to knock the animal unconscious with one quick blow (they put a rod in cows brains to do this). However, it doesn't always work

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see where it didn't work. I'm not saying that it can not happen. IE: guy has hangover from night before, sick, etc.... But that is not on a regular basis is it? And while I'm at it....how would "you" do it? Use a gun and take a chance on possibly hitting someone with a ricochet or missing your mark and only wounding the animal? Club them to death? You can't use chemicals as that would taint the meat.