Is It Really As Simple As 'Work hard and you will make it'?

Myth of class mobility?

http://news.com.com/2061-10788_3-5715278.html
from JoeUser Forums
If I said it once, I must have said it more than twice; working hard is not enough. Working hard is a key element to 'making it', but it is not THE element nor is it the only one.

The way I look at it, this is how it works:
Hard Work: 50%
Oppertunity: 25%
Take Risk: 10%
Connections: 10%
Other: 5%
(Other could be anything from winning the lotto to some odd beating event happening)
(Yes I pulled those stats out of my ass.. but I told you that already)

Hard work helps to get you there or gives you a chance to take advantage of an oppertunity or an inside connection, but the reality is that you can make it without hard work based only on oppertunity or connections (Or other).

In fact you can work hard all your life and still be poor. The US is based on captailism and taking risk, but the reality is that if you take a risk, you can end up poor... I guess that is why Poor People are Stupid. It is not whether you will make a mistake, it is about how fast can you get back up or fix it.

Never the less, it would sem that Americans believe that working hard is enough:

According to the Times, Americans have a hard time accepting the notion that their society isn't terribly fluid. "Americans have never been comfortable with the notion of a pecking order based on anything other than talent and hard work," the authors write. "Class contradicts their assumptions about the American dream, equal opportunity and the reasons for their own successes and even failures. Americans, constitutionally optimistic, are disinclined to see themselves as stuck."

It's interesting that both the Times and Wall Street Journal are running series related to the relative health of the "American dream." These follow a set of stories in a similar vein, about workers and families facing increased economic insecurity, in the Los Angeles Times.


My key thing, even when it comes to Social Services, is that without giving people an oppertunity to add to the hard work that they should be doing, there is NO hope. Taking a risk literaly means becomig more edebted or worst. (and there are no real 'connections' to be made to find out where an opertunity exists)


It is not about ending Social Programs, it is about making them better. The people I met on public asssisance actually want to work and want good jobs. Most were kicked off of public assistance (like myself) when we found a job that paid us more than 67 dollars a week (mine pays about 100). What do some do? Find a part time job taking scrap metal to the junk yard or giving out free newspapers at the subway station.

There are always going to be people who abuse the system and drive Excalades while excepting food stamps, or people who have kids on perpose just to get aid (or catch deadly deseases or purposly hurt themselves to collect money) but without oppertunity to make something of yourselves, we all loose. We must give an oppertunity to those who work hard to make it.

So between living like your on The O.C. and being poor and stupid, is it really just about working hard and you will make it?
8,959 views 29 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
To quote the great Rush Drummer, Neil Peart:

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." Link

I agree with you, hard work is about half the battle. As far as "class" goes though, most the "rich" people I know have been flat broke more than once in their lives. In America "Rich" and "Poor" is an attitude and a thought process more than a lifestyle.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hard work isn't the only ingredient but hard work will almost certainly keep you out of poverty.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

I came from a dirt poor upbringing.  Through hard work, I moved to the upper end of the middle class.  My children never new what poor was.

Mine was due to hard work.  That made the opportunities come.  I am not a big risk taker (and hence why I am not Bill Gates), and coming from a poor family, I had no connections that amounted to anything.

Hard work may not work alone, but it gets you OVER 50% of the way there.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm not too sure about hard work...my mother for example has worked hard,been honest,etc...yet she still has gotten screwed by others who are willing to steal and backstab to move up in life...hmmm,i'm not sure.....( ahhh,its good to be back, and out of the hospital....how is everyone doing this memorial day weekend?)
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Course you could alway join the KKK
I hear they teach you good spelling and
how to tie various knotts.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Just a comment on your stats...
I have always been told that it's mostly about hard work, and I believe that up to a point, but the amount that I have seen based mostly on connections has absolutely surprised and convinced me that this society works not nearly as much on hard work as it does on your networking. I think people heavily underestimate how far connections can take you with a small amount of hard work but how much harder it is to get somewhere with a lot of hard work and a small amount of connections. Even grad schools tell you that it's most important to go to a good grad school because of the network you have, rather than other things that most would consider important. Kinda sad that this society preaches a fairy tale world and lives a facade.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I just think when it comes down to it, the other 50% is what does it for you. You can work hard all you want to, but with out an oppertunity to succeed, networking/connections and other said items, your not going very far.

If there are people here who were poor with hard working parents, are you sort of saying that they were stupid (es I know that is a loaded question)?

If everyone worked hard, would there be 30,000 dollar jobs for everyone. Little_whip, you said you are poor, is it because you just didn't work hard enough? You are surrounded by people who smoke Crack and Meth yet I am poor and know people who, at worst smoke weed, work and some go to school (like a tech school). They seem to work hard... what are the odds of them being middle class? The people I am surounded by seem more mobile then who you seem surounded by, would that explain why your poor?



I just think that the idea that working hard means success and that is it. While working hard might create oppertunities, just how many compaired to those who have the other 50% in the bag?


What exactly DOES working hard mean? If you work harder than me, no matter how much work I do I will never make it because there is one spot? Why talk about compotition if all you have to do is work hard? Why give A, B, C or D grades if you worked hard?

My poor spelling? That wouldn't explain many millionaires who didn't finish college or those who have degrees but know less about their jobs then their 'lesser statis employees'.



For those who 'make it' everything is fine. The reality that they had to beat out someone else and that some one lese could have done the job better or worst then they did seem to excape the winners. Its always 'you can do it to' but in the end, if someone is always beating you out of that number one spot, what is left?

Work hard and you will make it emplies that there are 30,000 dollar jobs for everyone, that I can get into Harvard or Yale, that premuim brands can be everywhere, and so on.
Don't you think?
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'd like to suggest that "Joe Knowledge" ??? use the spell check tool next time
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

.....( ahhh,its good to be back, and out of the hospital....how is everyone doing this memorial day weekend?)

Lucas, glad to have yo back. I hope it was not serious.

Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Apparently some of your responders are a little confused at what is meant by "hard work" when it comes to the "hard work" needed to succeed. In this context, networking IS part of the hard work involved. You can "work hard" at a low level, no exposure job all your life and never get anywhere, but that isn't the "hard work" that makes the difference. Most self made successes I know worked hard to get there. However, very little of that hard work was done at work. They did their jobs well, but they also spent most of their personal time "working" at making things better for themselves. School, networking, making a hobby profitable, honing one skill or another, or even picking up new skills are all a part of the "hard work" that is meant in the line, "Work hard and you will make it?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Welcome back Lucas.. Glad you're out of the hospital!!
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
.....( ahhh,its good to be back, and out of the hospital....how is everyone doing this memorial day weekend?)Lucas, glad to have yo back. I hope it was not serious.


I'll third that too, welcome back Lucas (I had no idea you were ill and in the hospital) - hope you're doing well.


I agree with Ted that networking is most definately an important part of someone's success. Hard work is of course a major factor. It just depends on what you work hard at doing. Networking and making contacts IS hardwork as Ted also said because not everyone has the knack for being a people person. If you don't know how to follow up on those contacts, then it's just a waste of your time.

There's a saying that I've heard all the time, "it's not who you know, but who know's you"....plus it's part of a song too! Those are very true words. How do you think a lot of wealthy people remain wealthy? It is because of who they know and vice versa. You don't think Donald Trump's daughter, when she gets married, would marry someone who isn't wealthy would you? Nope, they keep it within the "family" so to speak. That's another kind of association on being and staying successful and wealthy.

Hard work is good and it keeps a lot of folks honest and above the poverty line, sometimes barely! But lets not forget that to be out there and making it, you have to be very competitive. You have to be willing to go after what it is you want and possibly step on someone to do it, if you're that competitive. It's hard work. Taking risk is also quite important. I think I would rate it a much higher percentile than you did Joe. Taking risk is how people become competitive and how they do become a success. You have to be willing to go out there and take a chance at whatever it is your dreams are.

On another point Joe, I do have to agree with Little Whip. She will be blunt, that's her, I will sugar-coat it, that's me - ! You will have to use the spell check next time. If someone who is not as versed at what you're saying (maybe a high school student) as most of us are here, they won't understand what it is you're trying to say. Spelling mistakes are not the end of the world, but they can make or break your point, and those mistakes will make what you're trying to say unintelligible. Some mistakes are ok, it happens to the best of us, I do it from time to time. But it makes it harder for the less learned to understand.

Otherwise, it's a good article.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Spelling in this article is about killing me.
I have to agree that hard work will keep you from being poor as in dirt poor but thats about it.
Politics, networking, back biting and back stabbing will bring you up to middle class / working poor.
True politics, stepping on peoples throats will bring you up to upper middle class and only by being by getting a lucky break or being born in the right family / having money already can you get rich (see Bill Gates: he had a million dollar trust fund before he hit junior high)

And by the way 30k a year is working poor, so is 50k a year. you need to be making 80k or more to be true middle or upper middle class.
150k or better for a real upper middle class single income.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
class warfare ignorance keeping you thinking that unless you are filthy rich, you are poor, doesn't help much.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
class warfare ignorance keeping you thinking that unless you are filthy rich, you are poor, doesn't help much.


Ted, oh wise one, always true!

This way of thinking is what always keeps the poor poor.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
class warfare ignorance keeping you thinking that unless you are filthy rich, you are poor, doesn't help much.


Ted, oh wise one, always true!

This way of thinking is what always keeps the poor poor. And that's not a wise-ass comment!
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

And by the way 30k a year is working poor,

With a family of 4, perhaps.  But I think several around here would disagree with you for a family of 1 or 2.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hard work without the ability to promote yourself will get you nowhere. If you just work hard it creates an expectation of you to keep producing at that level but you will not necessary be rewarded for it. I used to work 80 hour weeks, took on extra work to not only get my project done on time but to make sure other projects I was not on were completed as well. I figured that by working hard I would eventually get rewarded for it.

Unfortunately all it did was create an expectation of me to keep working the long hours, and then pilling even more extra work on me since I did that before. Eventually you get burnt out and need a break. But when you actually do go home after an 8 hour or 9 hour day then they notice that your production has gone down and look down on you. It doesn’t matter you are still producing more and still working more hours then anyone else all that matters is that you are not at the same level you are now expected to be at.

Then you have people that will walk around chitchat. Tell everyone about every little thing they did and make sure people notice. They are the ones that do get promoted, not because they work hard but because they make themselves visible and make it known that they are “working hard”.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

I believe hard work is the key ingredient. But another key ingredient is knowing how to sell yourself. I'm working on that angle right now.

We all have skills to sell; it's knowing how to present them that can make or break you. In my case, it's a transition between a work history that consists largely of manual labor jobs to a more "white collar" occupation. A look at my volunteer and community activities over the years indicates that I CAN make this transition; it's as simple as focusing on unpaid work opportunities and the 5 1/2 years I DO have of administrative experience.

I have to point out, though, that LW's right...your spelling and grammar could well be your achille's heel. I suggest you check out the book "the elements of grammar" from your local library and rely heavily on spell check before you finalize any documents. This advice could well be a career saver.

To answer your question, though, if you include research, self evaluation, and "thinking outside the box" in the category of hard work, then yes, it IS as simple as hard work.

Good luck!

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

With a family of 4, perhaps. But I think several around here would disagree with you for a family of 1 or 2.

Well, as someone raising a family of 7 on somewhere in the $12-15K range without public assistance, I consider $30K a small fortune.

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
What LW said. When we arrived here, we had a blowup mattress with pump, an ice chest, a hot plate, dishes, clothes, and $1200 to our name. Buying and registering a car, deposits, and other moving expenses ate up $1000 of that $1200 right away. We plugged away, and 7 months later we're finding ourselves ever so slowly moving towards solvency.

We've thrown newspapers, mowed lawns, collected cans and run errands along the way, but it's also gained me a few references as I continue to look for "stable" work.

Long story short: It CAN be done
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
As soon as you start believing that you are stuck and that you can't do anything to better your situation, you ARE stuck. There are always people out there willing to help. If you don't know any, you obviously have access to a computer and an internet connection, and I'm willing to bet that you have access to a yellow pages. No one is going to show up at your doorstep one day and hand you an instruction manual for life. Go out there and make it happen.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
JoeKnowledge. Imagine yourself a father of 4. You move your family 1000 miles for a job you have accepted. Your closest relatives are 8 hours away, and your closest good friends are even further away than that. 6 weeks after you start the job, through no fault of your own, you are "let go" from that job.

What do you do next?

You don't have to answer that question here if you don't want to, but the answer you come up with will tell you more about yourself than anyone could possibly answer about you.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lucas, glad to have yo back. I hope it was not serious.


--went in tuesday, left sunday afternoon, they found 1/3 of my right lung was collapsed...( ) and that my O2 gases were that of a 60 year old who had been smoking for 40 years (or at least what the RT and on call doc said...) that and i also found out that there was a little bit (just caught it) of pneumonia and that i have sleep apnea...so it was one of those times......
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
and thanks guys....
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
little_whip: So, I guess what you are saying is that my middle class dad, who retired back in 1990 while making about 90k a year was only able to do so because he stepped on throats, got a lucky break, or was born in the right family?

What an asinine assumption to make. My dad was born to to a coal mining family in eastern kentucky, the youngest of five children. When he was 18, he and several friends set out hitchiking across the country, determined to find work and vowing to return for their families when they did. (At 18, dad was already married and had an infant son.)

He found a job working at the McDonnell Douglas factory in St. Louis, rented a sleeping room, and for the next year saved every penny and made good on his promise, returning to bring my mother to St Louis.

From an entry level parts inspector job on the factory floor, he worked his way up into management, and in 1969 became the youngest "Quality Assurance Resident Representative" they ever sent overseas, stationing him at Messerschmidt in West Germany where they were manufacturing the cockpits for F-4 Phantoms. We remained in Germany for 8 years.


So that is one person who 'worked hard' and made it. How about the others who 'worked hard' and didn't? I mean no offence to your Dad, but most likely he did have to be cut throat in order to get to that level. To a point, there isn't really much wrong with that.

What I am saying it that he worked hard and made an opportunity for himself, but guess what? There had to be a job that would hire him, there had to be a chance to move up where he worked, there had to be some support (apparently being the people he set out with to go find a job). So in a since, it wasn't him just 'working hard', it was him finding a place to move up in, leaving with people who could help support his decisions, and just plain having a chance to even be hired.



Look, everyone, this is what I am saying:
Hard Work = Making It
?????
No. It is not that simple.

Hard Work = True entry level workplace?
No.


Hard Work = Making It
Misnomer? Yes. It is not as simple as work hard and you will make it.


Even as people posted here, note how the definition of working hard became 'do this' and 'work smart not harder' or 'make sure you are in a place where you can move up in the pay scale'.

What I think many did not notice is that their parents had to support them in order for them to even take advantage of working hard Were your parents considered poor or working class (pay check to pay check)? How come you 'made it' and they didn't?


From what little_whip said, she had it pretty good based off of what her parents reaped. Question: Would little_whip have to work as hard to 'make it' as someone who started out where her father did? Dr. Guy, would you be where you are if someone, ANYONE, didn't give you a chance or an opportunity?

Bill Gates was mentioned. Obviously he worked hard, but is his OS the best OS? Do many agree that there was a better OS that someone equally worked hard on? Who made it?


Wouldn't my children (if I had any) have to work harder than Frogboy's children with less to make it? If they didn't, is it because they just 'didn't work hard enough'?



The very last question might shock you... While hard work (50% of the equation that I pulled out my ass) is valuable, is it NOT true that I could make it if I had and or most of the other 50%? If I was the child of little_whip's Dad, is it not true that I could just work with the latter 50%

Are many here saying that 30,000 dollar jobs are here for everyone for the taking if you just work hard enough?
Could the American economy support everyone making 30,000 dollars (current value, not a deflated one making it worthless)?

Isn't capitalism based on competition? Doesn't that mean someone, anyone, can just not be on top or even in the middle?


Is City College of New York 3.8 GPA the same as a Harvard 2.09?

I am not saying that working hard does not help or that many people include some factors (like networking and working smart) into what is called working hard, but the reality is that there are totally separate parts of the equation that, if not included or are rather small, could quite mean that no matter how hard you work, making it is not a reality. Without an opportunity (which can surmount to luck at times or just being at the right place at the right time), connections (do you really think that President Bush would have gone to Harvard or even be president for that matter right now without the support of his father many years prior?), support, taking risk (like little_whip's father did, because that was a risk he defiantly took in doing what he did) and just plain other, you will not have the same true opportunity to make it as other in higher social classes. (and face the fact that because you made it does not mean there is room for another to do the same).


Even now, I would kiss Frogboy and take him on a honeymoon just because of his work is creating an opportunity for me to build something off of it. (Plug for Knowledge Net, creating a personal knowledge base using Blog Navigator, and Announce Your Life.com as well as DesktopX projects... end plug)

I could have never seen WinCustomize... but because I did, there is an opportunity for me to build something not only for myself but for others.