So you are saying that the crusades were concocted by a bunch of guys with nothing better to do than to slaughter muslims and jews?

And that the inquisition was just a wacky misunderstanding?

WOW. Ever hear of the Roman Catholic Church? Mother Church also looked the other way during the Holocaust if you desire a more recent example.

And i see that you are also dabbling in mind reading. Nice. It was the system that allowed Stalin to commit those atrocities. Please, stop the spin cycle ok?

In case you didn't know Baker, I'm an ordained minister.(non-practicing at the moment) I am aware of the atrocities commited in the name of christianity moreso than the next guy. I just don't stick my head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen.

See, you just did it again. I don't care if you are an ordained minister or an ostrich, you look silly telling ME to get my head out of the sand.

Your "Crusades" silliness might work with most folks, but I majored in History and minored in Lit, and anyone who had a basic Western Civ class could see through your simplistic, BIGOTED perspective. "Christianity" was as much to blame for the Crusades as Mormonism was to blame for the atrocities committed during the history of the Mormon Theocracy of Utah.

People of all cultures wear hats. People of all cultures commit atrocities. Perhaps if you could see through your own bias, you'd realize that perhaps it isn't the hats to blame.

People use ANYTHING as an excuse. When you blame the Catholic church for the crusades, you just validate their own excuses. If we discarded religion altogether, there wouldn't be any less atrocity, we'd just find another excuse.

I'm not saying that we should disregard religion. That's where you are wayyy off track here Baker.

All that i am saying is that folks like you act as if the history of christianity is unblemished. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. You say that it is the individual that is responsible for atrocities. OK, i can see your point to a certain extent. But when it comes down to it, the Holy See could have put a stop to it. Did they? Nope! they let the killing continue, and in fact, encouraged it to continue. All in the name of Christianity. The utter hypocricy of your statements is astounding. And quite disappointing i might add.

What you need to do is get off your moral high horse and do a little research. Open your mind to the possibility that just maybe...Just maybe the role of christianity in world history is at best "a chequered past". That doesn't mean that it always will be. I hope someday that all christians will realize that theirs is not a perfect religion. And no others are as well. Then and only then can christianity throw off the shackles of their bloody past.

But if you still insist in living in some perfect christian dreamland, that's your right.

More condemnation from "war is wrong" aeryk, who condemns God's own acts in favor of his own philosophy. God made war, aeryk says that war is wrong, so God must be wrong to aeryk.

baker, what are you smoking? It appears that you are reading but not comprehending. A clouding of the mind my friend.

in favor of your own hippie silliness, feel free, but don't condemn others for making what THEY want out of it...

Hey this is borderline offensive for two reasons.
1. I used to be a hippie.
2. I agree with aeryck

Actually Preacherman, you were right to assume that i was talking about people commiting atrocities in the big guy's name. Not that he was smiting millions from the heavens.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought I understood what you were saying but come on oneguy, surely you can not blame the ignorance of peoples action even if they do profess to do it in the name of God.

I'm an ordained minister.(non-practicing at the moment)

What church and why not practicing?

See, you just did it again. I don't care if you are an ordained minister or an ostrich, you look silly telling ME to get my head out of the sand.

Baker, chill man. You appear to be losing control? You seem to be under a lot of stress, if I have mis-read, please forgive.

preacherman

Nope! they let the killing continue, and in fact, encouraged it to continue. All in the name of Christianity.

I hope everyone reading this blog understands that all of this killing that has been mentioned was not endorsed by Jesus Christ!

aeryck, I am really disapointed that no one has been reading your post on the Prince of Peace. The Love of Christ!

preacherman

"But when it comes down to it, the Holy See could have put a stop to it. Did they? Nope! "

And the Holy See is... um... people? So you would consider, say, a Borgia Pope to be representitive of the Christian Faith?

"All in the name of Christianity."

Nope, all in the name of politics and greed. If you had done "a little research" or even paid attention in High School history class, you'd know that too.

I spent too many years in college to have you tell me to do "a little research". The Crusades were socio-economic endeavors, and religion was a thinly-veiled excuse. Day in and day out I see Liberal idiots harp and whine about "Christianity" doing this and that throughout history, completely blind to the REAL events, and the REAL people behind them.

If I were to say that Shinto was directly responsible for Hiroshima, people would boil me in oil. The fact is, that is just as correct, and just as insipid, as saying Christianity is to blame for atrocities purpetrated by Christians.

Sorry preacherman. I guess Baker and i have developed a nasty habit of ripping each other a new one. I still like and respect his work though. We just don't agree much is all.

I started out as a ULC minister (not an internet one, i was actually ordained by a friend who has been with them since the 1960's) but i became involved with a local bible study group a few years ago. A bunch of free thinkers who arent afraid of ruffling a few feathers in my otherwise Mormon dominated home of Salt Lake City.

For the record, the big JC is ok with me. I just have problems with what some folks do in his name.

aeryk is an irrational hypocrite. Sorry, but I state my mind. You can ask me to leave and I will, but while I'm here I won't sit and tolerate someone judging and berating people for things he does himself.

Aeryk has decided to disregard everything but hippy love, and he has that right. I pick and choose myself. I don't take offense until he starts condemning others for picking and choosing.

Ok, maybe baker is losing it a bit. YIKES dude. So all your education justifies acting like an idiot to prove your point?

Preacher is right...Calm down a bit!

" Ok, maybe baker is losing it a bit. YIKES dude. "

Has next-to-nothing to do with this particular blog, thatoneguyinslc. This is an ongoing thing with Aeryck, and I have been on the butt end of his little inquisitions WAY too many times to sit and let him throw stones about "judgement".

I'd point you to some reference material, but Aeryck likes to delete his blogs once he has shown his behind.

Ok, no problemo. I was just hoping it wasn't our banter that got you mad.

Nah, the Crusades thing is just debate. Granted, some people are squeamish about it, but I know you don't shy away.

I don't think more than two weeks have gone by in the last I don't know how long that Aeryk, in his NON-JUDGMENTAL mode, has told me that I "hate God." Gratned, he generally deletes the post and pretends he never says it, so don't blink.

HIs "Adolph Hitler, Judge Dread, and the thought police" is named for me, believe it or not. At least he rushed to write it after calling me that on my own blog. I blacklisted him for about 20 minutes for calling me a Nazi and I guess it got to him.

Baker, Jesus did not teach his disciples hatred, killing or war, infact the opposite:-

'But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.'
[ just a few words from the big man ~ Matthew 5:44 - 48]

As you have correctly pointed out Christians commiting evil, does not mean Christ~ianity is evil. I agree but take it further mankind's repeated inhuman acts, proves that all mankind is evil, hateful and war loving. At the best we are a blood thirsty planet, and this includes you and me.

My thread, Adolph Hitler, Judge Dread, and the thought police" ~ the title is dedicated to you, but the content is actually quite fun, you should try it, tell us all how you would run this planet if you were the Boss.

Telling us of your achievements and insulting me for my lack, seems to reveal that your educated mind is still infected with what we are all suffering from; the sinful nature.

Great entries though, until you got into slagging me. What a waste, considering what you think about me.

The only reason I delete threads, is because I have no regard for human wisdom. When something gets all muddy and personal, I get bored, just like you have made this thread which was not about you, all about you. ~ Infact now you should look at the thread we are on, see yourself in the mirror of scripture
....."he who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone."

Ouch, ouch, ouch, oucheeeee ouch ~ [repeat seventy times seven, and you are it.]

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3

As steeped in the Bible as you claim to be, I doubt I need to post every time God told Israel to kill every man, woman, child and goat, and neither should I need to remind you that Jesus ordered his apostles to buy swords and never bothered to preach against war.

So, if you take the commandment "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." seriously, I find it hard to understand how you can dismiss warfare.

Not that we need to stink up preacherman's blog with your inability to admit that you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to believe. I just wish you'd stop (re: #31) condemning other people who do it...

Goodbye Baker, you are a silly soldier, wage war in the name of Jesus as many have before, but disregard his teaching means you are not his follower. My final word to you is read this link and humble your proud heart.

Just home for lunch and checking in on the discussion..

Not that we need to stink up preacherman's blog with your inability to admit that you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to believe.

Goodbye Baker,

I don't wish anyone to leave. I know aeryck and baker both profess Christ.... can we not agree to disagree concerning issues that do not cast the soul of man into hell... No offense little_whip!

I guess I am having trouble understanding some of the discussion. aeryck says the Bible portrays Christ as Loving, merciful and full of grace. Not only does he believe it he supported it with scripture!

'But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' [ just a few words from the big man ~ Matthew 5:44 - 48]

With this, no one can not argue.

baker I know you do not argue with what the scripture above states, but what are you saying that you think God's word says about the issue? Surely you don't think Christ promoted killing the unbelieving?

preacherman

"baker I know you do not argue with what the scripture above states, but what are you saying that you think God's word says about the issue?"

Huh? My whole point is about what God's word says about the issue, and I think I supported it pretty concisely. Aeryk is the one who bolts and runs when he is faced with the reality of war and capital punishment in the Bible.

You know it as well as I do, we've even talked about it here. I applaud you for your diplomacy, but it does seem like you are a bit more diplomatic with Aeryk re-interpreting the Bible than you are with others.

'But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' [ just a few words from the big man ~ Matthew 5:44 - 48]

[Preach] baker I know you do not argue with what the scripture above states, but what are you saying that you think God's word says about the issue? Surely you don't think Christ promoted killing the unbelieving?

[Baker] Huh? My whole point is about what God's word says about the issue, and I think I supported it pretty concisely. Aeryk is the one who bolts and runs when he is faced with the reality of war and capital punishment in the Bible.

Stop playing, Baker. Come on and answer the question, old bean : 'Surely you don't think Christ promoted killing the unbelieving?'



[little_whip] link

Aeryck says "Jesus did not teach his disciples hatred, killing or war," and cites:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

and I return:

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3"

And then as usual Aeryck pouts. You can't deny the dozens of times God ordered war, so saying war is "wrong" is either blind or dishonest. He ignores those scriptures, and favors ones that he agrees with.

I don't mind you rejecting the parts of the Bible you obviously disagree with. I just hate it when you say that I and others who do the same thing "hate God".

Since you must think God was wrong when God commanded and even sent His angels to help in war, do you "hate God" aeryck?. How can you tell me to be perfect like God if you think God committed wrongs? Can someone command folks to go to war and still be perfect Aeryck?

Just so I can be clear then...

Preacherman and Aeryck: You believe war and capital punishment are wrong?

Baker, The wrath of God was poured out upon Jesus. God's dealings with man are now directly through Jesus, if you are outside of Christ, you will still experience the Wrath of God, but in a way like a shower of hail, if you are under the roof it does not sting. I am really clear on this matter, but still think you have avoided the question very nicely. So one more time: 'Surely you don't think Christ promoted killing the unbelieving?'

You are being logically contradictory again. The question is already answered. Now it is your turn son, give it your best shot. But I suggest you have a serious read of Romans in the light of the Wrath of God.

'Surely you don't think Christ promoted killing the unbelieving?'[your unanswered question]

I applaud you for your diplomacy, but it does seem like you are a bit more diplomatic with Aeryk re-interpreting the Bible than you are with others.

That is what a real friend does, he attempts to dispell the discord. I don't want to see any of us fight (with words) but one must consider the Word.

Aeryck says "Jesus did not teach his disciples hatred, killing or war," and cites:

aeryck may say this but that does not carry a lot of weight with me. What means a lot is that this is what the scriptures teach. Christ never taught His disciples to hate, even those that rejected their gospel.. just shake the dust off your feet.... not set off plastic explosives and destroy them all. Even when opposed by the Samaritan village (Luke 9:51-56) , and James and John questioned Christ if they should call down fire from heaven like Elijah and consume the unbelieving bunch, Christ rebuked them saying "ye know not what manner of spirit you are".

baker it is impossible for you to justify in scripture that Christ hated anyone, even those that hated Him. If you can find the scripture, I will be glad to consider, but to use the quote from Exodus 15:3- does not fit. It is out of context, especailly the mercy and grace of Christ.

You can't deny the dozens of times God ordered war, so saying war is "wrong" is either blind or dishonest. He ignores those scriptures, and favors ones that he agrees with.

Maybe a topic for another blog..... but why did God order destruction of entire nations, men, women and children? The reason God ordained such graphic destruction can only be found in His Word. Deut. 7: 1-5. Do as the believers in Berea, receive the scripture and search them. Come back and tell jU why God was so cruel and graphic?

Ok, no problemo. I was just hoping it wasn't our banter that got you mad

baker, your allowing a root of bitterness to overwhelm you. Even that oneguy sees it. Dont allow others on jU to fuel their hatred for aeryck. If you find where aeryck has said something that does not line up with scripture, you can tell him and he will search it ou. aeryck and I do not always agree, and you and I don't but I have no hatred for either one of you. In fact I love you both.

preacherman

Baker,I think you need to be clear, and stop stalling on the issue. On the other hand preach is right, we do not have to do this in one session, let's create another stream, thread whatever and discuss the Nature of God. Old Testament to New Testament. I personally like Romans as a starting point, having studied a little under Dr Du Plessis at Kalk Bay Bible Institute, it was wonderful to see how clearly Paul explains this entire issue in detail.

Dodge, dodge, dodge. Do you or don't you think Capital punishment and war is wrong? Please, grow some guts and answer the question.

"Surely you don't think Christ promoted killing the unbelieving?'"

Jesus didn't promote tap dancing or greco roman wrestling, but that doesn't make them wrong. I don't believe we should ever kill anyone because of their beliefs. We have a God-given right to protect ourselves and our society. God doesn't give us freedom and families just so we can allow anyone who wants to murder and pillage at will.

I believe we have an obligation to do all we can for people, but Jesus did NOT void the responsiblity of protecting our families and our country. Jesus did NOT forbid war, and Jesus did NOT forbid capital punishment.

Now, please, yes or no will do. Do you believe that capital punishment and war are wrong?