Unless you're a pirate, I can't see how anyone could possibly think Konfabulator is a better choice.

With Konfabuator, the widget gets made and then EVERY user has to download a 17 meg download of Konfabulator, install that, pay for it (it puts a perm nag on your desktop after 15 days).

With DesktopX Pro, you export your widget as a stand alone EXE. Final download is around 500K and anyone can use it without having to download anything else.

For a project like the Tsunami one, we'd provide a free license of DesktopX Pro for them or create the gadget for them.

Also, creating a widget in DesktopX is much easier.  I bet more than 2% of the market (the size of the Mac market) would have problems downloading a 17 megabyte file per machine that wants to use this.

It's 7 and 4 MB's respectively for PC and Mac (unless you mean the widget then my apologies; but have never seen a 17mb widget). To be fair, the students read the article, it said Konfabulator, they googled it probably, downloaded it and wrote it.

They would have no clue as to DX or that you would have supplied something free like [Pro] that from that article. It's just a twist of fate that this is the end result.

Unless you're a pirate, I can't see how anyone could possibly think Konfabulator is a better choice.

It's not a matter of which one "is a better choice", but which one will work for my particular task needs... I am a registered ODNT user, and a registered Konfabulator user... I would LOVE to only have one application to have to worry about upgrades, configurations etc to, but until DX can work behind a proxy configuration, I'll continue to use both. I've got to believe my situation is not unique either.

And lets not forget that Konfab widgets tend to be more useful than the DX ones. I spent a good deal of time browsing the Konfab library yesterday and found a number of cool widgets that I would want to use, such as parcel tracking, world clock, site ping, site status, traffic camera images, memory/cpu meters that also display the process that is taking up the largest amount of resources, etc. For the most part, DX widgets are variations on weather checkers, calendars and simple resource meters. While they match Konfab on eyecandy, they're still losing out in functionality.

If my little escapade into the Konfab widget gallery did anything yesterday, it was to spark my interest in purchasing it, just to get some stuff I could use that the current crop of DX widgets is lacking.

And lets not forget that Konfab widgets tend to be more useful than the DX ones. I spent a good deal of time browsing the Konfab library yesterday and found a number of cool widgets that I would want to use, such as parcel tracking, world clock, site ping, site status, traffic camera images, memory/cpu meters that also display the process that is taking up the largest amount of resources, etc. For the most part, DX widgets are variations on weather checkers, calendars and simple resource meters. While they match Konfab on eyecandy, they're still losing out in functionality

I don't think that's entirely giving DX the credit it deserves though... DX can be so much more than just another "Widget runner", which in my opinion is all that Konfabulator or Avedesk are. With DX, you can build an entire replacement desktop environment, (think kiosk mode, or s "focused shell" environment for internet cafe's, or libraries, etc).

My complaints above should not in any way be taken to mean that I'm unsatisfied with my "value for purchase" for the product.. I think it's an amazing product for what amounts to a dirt cheap price given what you can do with it, which is basicaly anything... limited only by creativity.

I do agree with all the coments above that DX needs a concerted community effort to evangelize it as a product and what it's capabilities are. I think the idea of a dedicated web presence is a great idea, especially if it can be a community resource for code sharing, etc. as that may help to flatten the learning curve for new people to adopt it as a development platform.

I don't think that's entirely giving DX the credit it deserves though... DX can be so much more than just another "Widget runner", which in my opinion is all that Konfabulator or Avedesk are. With DX, you can build an entire replacement desktop environment, (think kiosk mode, or s "focused shell" environment for internet cafe's, or libraries, etc).

Oh absolutely, but ultimately, unless DX's power is harnessed and approprietly implemented, so that the end user will find it useful, all those capabilities will add up to sweet jack all, because the market will be swamped with Konfab and Avedesk. That's like saying there are more powerful operating systems than Windows that can do so much more, which is probably true, but the average user will then reply "So what? Windows already does what I want it to do".

Alas I do agree with what you're saying

Skinner CerebroJD - Joe, I think you've got some super ideas!

Yes someone is listening!!!

Frogboy - For a project like the Tsunami one, we'd provide a free license of DesktopX Pro for them or create the gadget for them.

So then give them a call!!! Its for a good cause anyway. Just offer your services to expanding the project. Heck, tell them about AveDesk while your at it just to seem fare.

(By the way, did you read the other stuff I mentioned????)
joeKnowledge will contiue to bug Frogboy until he gives in and does what I want.

Mackintosh - And lets not forget that Konfab widgets tend to be more useful than the DX ones. I spent a good deal of time browsing the Konfab library yesterday and found a number of cool widgets that I would want to use, such as parcel tracking, world clock, site ping, site status, traffic camera images, memory/cpu meters that also display the process that is taking up the largest amount of resources, etc.

Yeah, I saw the library and I have to say they have some pretty cool widgets. Some of the info is stuff I didn't know was avaible to get (although in theory is possible)


Frogboy, maybe if you invite people to make widgets for DX (like from the developers websites suh as Builder.com and alistapart.com or CNET) they will come. I was very excited when I found out about DX while I was at school doing IT. I though I could do anything with this app (and I can if I could remember how to code C++ and Visual Basic).

With Konfabuator, the widget gets made and then EVERY user has to download a 17 meg download of Konfabulator

That's not true. I just downloaded Konfab. 7.6 meg download.

Also it was mentioned that the free version of Konfab puts a nag screen on your system when you start it up. But if I remember right so do most free versions of OD products and the free DX as well?

But if I remember right so do most free versions of OD products and the free DX as well?

Kona, did you miss the point? The point being that if a widget is exported with Desktop Pro, the resulting widgets DON'T NEED Desktop X to run. A developer can then distribute his widgets as standalone mini-app. No need for Konfab, no need for Desktop X, nor anything else.

I'm quite aware of that point Paxx. I'm sorry if I drifted a bit off topic.

Provided the aformentioned developer purchases DX Pro, how many small time artists/coders are going to splash out $499 just so that he or she can distribute standalone mini-apps?

Well, Makintosh, I guess it depends who we are talking about. A developer creating apps with MS Visual Studio already needs to dish out $800. Developer tools don't come cheap, and are usually not paid by any individual but by the company that employs him to create such apps. Besides, the licensing for Dx Pro for creating non-commercial non-promotional apps is $129. So, in this particular example, the developers of the Tsunami widget - since the widget would not be used commercially nor to promote any web site, company or product - could have gotten DX Pro for just $129, and therefore avoid the hassle of asking the users to download a trial version of another software.

exactly. that makes sense.

nevertheless, i am sure what those who were creating the widget did not want to invest 129 USD for the product. they would rather push off the price tag to those who want to use it.


I still say, if you want DX to get out there, give it to those I mentioned above (the non-commercial one) and head toward some schools who have IT or Media design classes.

I also want to add that I agree with those who suggested changing the name to DX. I think we can all agree the newer DesktopX is not like the old one in relation to performance and functionality. I say start new with a name like DX and launch a marketing campaign to get the word out.

before Stardock starts worrying about the name perhaps they should get a stable build under their belts. one thing that distracts from the appeal of DesktopX or DX (whichever you prefer) is that from build to build there seems to be an incremental amount of bugs. what we need is a stable build backward capatable.

-- I think we can all agree the newer DesktopX is not like the old one in relation to performance and functionality.

true, but it still has the bugs and errors-galore it once had. this drives many people away. who wants to design anything for a program that won't work when the next update is available? i, for one don't.

What errors are you specfically speaking of? I have hardly ever had a problem with DesktopX.

Let me say this slowly:

DesktopX Pro can export its content as stand-alone-programs.  (not we're talking DesktopX PRO, not the $20 DesktopX here). And on a project like the tsunami project, we'd happily give away the DX Pro license to a good cause).

Whereas with Konfabulator, the users first have to download the 8 meg (not 17 meg - my bad) Konfabulator program, install that. Then install the Tsunami app.

It's not about content, it's about practicality. One solution involves the recipients downloading a free 500K program. The other involves people downloading a 8 meg program and paying money for each license.

Sranshaft - the released versions of DesktopX are very solid. No one forces you to download beta versions and alpha versions.  The officially released version of DesktopX is 2.4 and it's definitely not buggy.

BTW,

I also agree with Makintosh - the Konfabulator widget development community seems to be better at putting out useful, pleasant looking stuff than the DesktopX community. 

Since DesktopX's development support is much more mature (i.e. you're not making widgets by opening up a text editor and typing in XML) then one has to wonder why Konfabulator widget content seems to be better.

On the other hand, Konfabulator has no equivalent to DesktopX's exported desktops (.dxthemes) or its animation. 

I don't agree with those who think changing the name of DesktopX to something else is a good idea.

I think at a basic level Stardock needs to do a better job marketing it. Partiuclarly to developers.

We all agree that DX has no equivalent and OD is an amazing package which gets better and better and deserves to be non freeware. It is just a matter of visibility. People are perplexed too with the DX objects / DX widgets duality in my opinion.

As for DX bugs, they are still there. I tried DX 2.4 (stable) and some widgets I downloaded did not work (the ones from Tiggz), so the release is not stable. Things have improved with the latest beta, but still, when you have one SD certified widget like the Currency converter from martin still not working, you wonder what means "SD certified" ??

But it has improved a lot, trying DX at the beginning of 2004 was a pain, it is not the case any more.

It was already written much, I agree with. But I still have some points. When I see news about DX on german sites for example, I always see old screenshots of themes like GrafX and the Kids one from here : https://www.stardock.com/products/desktopx/screenshots.asp. You can guess the reactions to those. Proper screenshots are not a minor thing as people seem to think. Drop those old shots please. And please : Do them on a proper machine and not on a notebook with a 1024 res.

Another thing I have been warning for months now : Weather widgets, calendars, weather widgets... Is DX possibly good for anything else ? (I know, it is, but I have been speaking to people that weren't aware of it at all). We have some nice widgets now (Although I would want Paul to make more and extend his Alien stuff), but some people really gave up when we had that weather object flood.

What is bugging me and what in my opinion let's people choose for something
different. Help files were are they? i checked the konfabulator website
and saw the workshop-page. 151 pages helpfiles in PDF.

Most people want to be productive from the start, you need proper and good
helpfiles for that. you do not want to spend your time searchin websites for answers.

I would say contract a very good helpfile writer and the popularity of all the programs
here would (i think) problaby double.

Cheers Eddie

Yeah, proper documentation is a big issue, too. Especially in foreign languages. If I didn't have a job there would be at least much more german 'literature' about Stardock products.

I think what Eddie Hill mentioned is an obvious one. More documentation and more informative documentation. And not in the manner of we resources here and there. Package it all in one nice big .pdf file so folks can read it when they want and even print off a copy and have a hard copy to refer to. There are lots of decent tutorials and resources popping up here (and at JU), but there needs to be one single guide that supercedes all that. That has been my biggest holdout. There have been a few widgets I have wanted to make and the documentation just wasn't quite sufficient for me. (Admittedly my own knowledge is lacking as well)

c242 hit on another fantastic point: Screenshots. I know that Brad has released some monthly widget desktops and has announced them not only here, but at other sites. But to be quite honest they look very random. I understand the concept of grouping a bunch of widgets so folks can use them, great. But for PR purposes it would be very beneficial to have high quality screenshots that have a series of unified looking widgets. There are a lot of people who react amazingly positive to screenshots of Desktop X when they have a nice, unified feel to the widgets. Carefully planning out the screenshots could make a huge difference. Especially with some audiences. Taking into consideration the whims of different groups should be integral to what kind of screenshot to show them.

Frogboy: read through the DesktopX Support and you'll see a ton of messages ranging from "widgets don't work' to 'widgets don't work' well...okay, the main thing is widgets don't work (and the system tray but that's been like that since 1.99 but i digress) the whole competition between DX and Konfabulator is with widgets. It's not about interface modification which DX can and does well. Konfabulator wasn't built for that so we can't include those capabilties when comparing the two.

As for ease of creating widgets...I've found it much easier to use CSS/HTML, Javascript, XML. It's natural to go from coding webpages to coding widgets and this, I think, is the main draw for some with Konfabulator and even more so when Dashboard hits the masses.

Also like BlueDev said, C424 hit on one of the key points and that is the screenshots of the product. When talking about marketing everything comes down to the way one presents the product. If you want to attract a certain group, you show off those aspects of the product that appeal to that group. Konfabulator does this quite well with the graphic artist in mind. Being as it's 'home' if you will is Apple, it has that look and feel that hits a cord with the graphic artist. Just a look at the first page of widgets and you see what I mean. This doesn't mean there aren't some great graphic artists here (tiggz, you know we can't compete ) but it seems this is angle K is coming from.

As a side note: i have 2.40 no alphas or betas or gammas for that matter. There are still bugs in any program no matter how 'stable' one thinks it to be. One bug that I've come across is resizing of ActiveX controls and before you say 'hold ctrl and click' I've already done this. In fact I've gone so far as to hard-code the width and height with the same effect, meaning none. All I get is a box with the original control and a black field filling the rest. Didn't happen in 2.3 but is there now...another is wallpaper changing. Some reason it doesn't accept saved wallpapers, which I have to go into the display properties dialog now to change and the only wallpapers is will accept is bmp. jpegs come back with a grey screen with a 1 pixel strip at the bottom of the wallpaper. Setting the wallpaper in DesktopX config has no effect as it once did.

Stable sure...not without bugs? no.