Let me get this straight - you think that the Nazi's alone were responsible for the deaths of 6 million jews? That when they marched into say France or Poland that they just "knew", kind of like a spider sense or something, where all the jews lived?

The number of jews murdered during World War II varied from country to country largely based on the amount of CIVILIAN cooperation the Nazi's received in rounding them up.

But yes, you CAN blame France's population for cooperating in the deportation of jews. Frankly, I wasn't aware that anyone seroiusly disputed this anymore. I find it scary that there's still people out there pretending that it was only a tiny group of people who did in 6 million jews. The boogeyman Nazi's did it all and everyone else was just an innocent victim. Please.

This is exactly the type of stuff that makes Americans think many Europeans are anti-semetic. When confronted with their past they deny deny deny.

That would be like Americans saying "Well, it wasn't the settlers fault for the harm that American indians had. It was the US calvalry that did that stuff..." Hell, Americans (As a whole) still carry a lot of guilt over black slavery and that was something that was only practiced by a TINY number (smaller as a percent than the percentage of Germans who were members of the Nazi party) of Americans. And was eliminated not by outside force but through a civil war in which hundreds of thousands of Americans died.

Maybe we Americans just have too high of standards. We're a nation that believes in taking responsibility. Maybe that's why this middle east issue is so divisive. We Americans tend to see the Palestinians as being largely responsible for their own problems. While some Europeans seem to insist on blaming not Jordan or Syria but Israel.

For example, you don't hear about Europeans arguing that the Kurds should have their own state even though they have a much stronger case. Why is that?

Styrkar,

I would ask you to NOT make up statements and attribute them to me. Even though you quoted me correctly, you only pretend to summarize it correctly. I did NOT use any crimes of other nations to justify anything, and neither have I said anything even close to that. I merely said that 300 million people living in a democracy is not much worse than 6 million people living in the same area. This has NOTHING to do with any crimes of any nation justifying anything at all. So please refrain from restating what I said and play fair. I am only going to ask you for this once.

And since I was asking about that expansion theory, you should have read the maps you found, not just look at them. If you do some calculating, you will find that what is Israel today is almost exactly what it was then plus the Golan heights, as I said. But I see you have added the occupied territories to "Israel"... well, how shall we solve that?

If you look for further maps, you might find that today's occupied territories have been occupied ever since Transjordan annexed them. Of course Transjordan (since then "Jordan") then lost them to Israel. So if you look for a Palestinian state, ask Jordan regarding what happened to it. As for Israel's expansionism, might I ask where exactly it has expanded into? Do you consider controlling the occupied territories "expansion"? Because in that case you might want to ask Arabs not to attack Israel every few years. Or maybe there is simply a definition problem here. Poland was attacked by Germany and has since then kept a part of Germany. Has Poland expanded? (Or was it?)

So what do you propose? Should Israel give back the occupied territories to Jordan? Should it hand it over to the Palestinian dictatorship and allow them to launch attacks from there (once more)? Or would you maybe consider accepting the fact that since Israel hasn't actually expanded is really a "non-expanding" country?

So please, Styrkar, try to stick to the facts.

Pablo, compare the maps again. Use a current map and the one you found. Maybe print them on see-through paper. Compare. You will find that the current border between Israel and the occupied territories and other Arab lands is almost exactly the border it was then.

And I do not care whether you are a doctor of PS of whatever country. Unless what you say is true, it is of no value for me, even if you have Jewish and Palestinian friends. But I fail to the relevance of your telling me about your title? Do you actually believe that people can be convinced by authority rather than facts? Has it ever worked? Should it?

Also, I find it odd that a "doctor" of Political Science would not know that the first division plan for the region was made before WWII and considered the Jews living there (and Israel thus wasn't a "gift" made after WWII); and then there were your remarks about the Americans being younger than us... now what sense does that make? Do you actually believe that some chain of wisdom is interrupted when families travel over the atlantic? ("We have been Europe for the last 2.000 years, so i guess we have a little different evaluation about the world, the politics, the possible threats. We are used to it, you my american friends, are too young in the world.") Now what is that about? Do you actually believe that nonsense? Americans ARE Europeans, they have just relocated. That doesn't make them dumber or less educated, it just makes them, well, Americans (in the local sense). They have the same experience with the world that we have, except they have controlled more of it than we did for the last 50 years. So what is it with your remark about them being "too young"?

And what exactly is the Palestinian people's claim towards a homeland? Why can they not live elsewhere in the Arab world. The Arabs have expelled more Jews (and kept their property) than there originally were Palestinians west of the Jordan. Why could the Palestinians not take their place and live among their Arab "brothers". And why is it acceptable for Arabs to expel Jews but such a crime for Jews to defend themselves against Arab atrocities? A doctor of PS would certainly know, wouldn't he?

5th: The majority of the world live in dictatorships and are uneducated. Why should we care about the opinions of a tyrant and his uneducated people? They are usually against democracy. So what?

6th: Specificae?

7th: A kibbutz is not a military training camp.

8th: Why should I care about the UN? The Arabs have many votes and are usually supported by all the other dictatorships in the world. How does that make a UN resolution a moral statement? Why would it be wrong to violate it? Also, I assume that a doctor of PS would know the difference between a UN resolution and a statement of the general assembly? Which resolution was violated, btw? Examples?

9th: I live in West Berlin. I grew up in West Berlin. I know about living behind a wall. It is not horrible. It's not the best solution and West Berlin was not really a problem to the lives of those around it, but Palestine is and a wall might just work. We can tear it down when the Arabs have decided to stop killing people at random.

10th: Palestinians live in refugee camps because their Arab brothers did not want them to live anywhere else. They could let them in. But they don't want to. You seem to believe that for some physical reason Palestinians cannot exist anywhere outside Israel. It is not true. Please think before YOU speak. Or at least notice that I didn't even say anything about such camps.

12th: No, not everybody's sayings are worth the same. Some people are simply wrong. What you are refering to are votes, not value. The statement "We don't need aircraft, we can use flying bricks" carries as much eight in elections as any other, but that doesn't make it as valuable as "better use aircraft". You can look up the voter percentages in the last elections in Berlin yourself, if you like.

Pablo,

1. So there were no Jews living there before 1947?
2. Relevant yes, powerful no.
3. Good for you, but why should we care?
4. The Palestinians HAVE their own country and the "government" of that country is directing attacks against Israel in an effort to take over Israeli land.
5. So you're scared because the US doesn't just sit on their hands instead of trying to make things better. I prefer trying to make the world a better place.
6. So it's ok for the Palestinians to unilaterally decide to attack other countries?
7. You're upset that the Israelis are building houses to live in? Would you prefer that they were homeless?
8. The relevancy of the UN has been discussed here before and I'm not going to rehash that argument now.
9. I don't have a clue of what point you're trying to make here.
10. The Palestinians are living in refuge camps because their own government cares more about hating Israel then taking care of their own people. There is no shortage of aid for the Palestinians but the majority of it goes to fund terrorist efforts.
11. If Palestinians had killed your friends and neighbors you might hate them too.
12. All voices are not worth the same. Should everyone listen to what the Nazis or the KKK have to say? Is the "active and open" view of democracy the reason European countries restrict political speech?

Btw the US in the oldest continuously operating government in the world. It's all of you other countries that are young and inexperienced.

ignorance makes the heart go yonder

young in the sense that you have no respect for the other, and believe that you are the best. we are more sceptic. please read what you say, most of your comments are reflected in the text, and most of them are caused by ignorance, since i won't enter the game because i stated on the text what i know it's a legitimate cause. i cannot go to make a house in, let's say, usa, because that's not my country. so why do israelis do that? and yes, i compared the maps. i only stated my knowledge because i was questioned about it, and yes i think before i say something. i see most of you have a serious lack of education. and for the german friend...i can see in you the consequences of living behind a wall. and please stop with all those classical "anti-semitic" topics because Palestinian are semitic too. period.

i would like to know how many victims are from palestinian suicides, and when did the suicide bombings begun.

The Palestinians are terrorist’s, and if they continue their terror the only solution will be expulsion. The wall Israel is building is only counter-productive, and a complete waste of time. The wall will do nothing to stop terrorism, worse than that; it will sever the biblical Jewish land of Samaria and Judea from Israel.


In 70 A.D the Romans conquered the region and slaughter thousands of Jews. The Romans renamed the land Palestine, in an attempt to further erase the Jews from the land. Palestine was a name inspired by the “invaders” or “Philistines.” The Philistines were dreaded and frowned upon as a people; the Romans were trying to add insult to injury.
Today’s Palestinians have no relation or blood tie to the Philistines.


Where is reference or historical attachment of Islam to Jerusalem? The Koran mentions Mecca, Medina, but never Jerusalem. The Palestinians, by majority are Jew hating terrorists; it looks like they have found a huge group of cheerleaders in the EU. The EU is actually applauding the senseless, terrorist related deaths of Jews, judging from this morally bankrupt poll.

Do they name the vatican in the Bible?

I dont want to enter the discussion but muslims think Muhammad went to heaven from Al-Aqsa mosque, in the center of Jerusalem.

Your considerations derive from the intensive reading of X-Men and Gi-Joe comic books. Sorry but it's so true.

Pablo,

Respect is a two way street. Where is the respect of Israel’s right to exist?

Why must all the Jews live in Israel? Are they just not good enough to live elsewhere? Or do you just want to “concentrate” them in one place so they can be “taken care of”?

And you can come to the US and build a house if you want to; we’re not so small-minded as to persecute someone because they come from another country.

THIS IS FROM: JEWS FOR JUSTICE IN THE MIDDLE EAST (are they anti-semitic too??) , and you can download the full story on the link at the bottom.


For 2,000 years there was no such conflict.

The land of Palestine was inhabited by Palestinian Arabs. In 1850 these consisted of approximately 400,000 Muslims, 75,000 Christians, and 25,000 Jews. For centuries these groups had lived in harmony: 80 percent Muslim, 15 percent Christian, 5 percent Jewish.

Zionism
But then in the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as "Zionists," this group consisted of an extremist minority of the world Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and at first considered locations in Africa and South America, before finally settling on Palestine for their colony.

At first this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine -- many with the express wish of taking over the land for an exclusively Jewish state -- the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, there was fighting between the two groups, with escalating waves of violence.

UN Partition Plan
Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of "self-determination of peoples," in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power arbitrarily divides up other people's land.

Under considerable pressure from high-placed American Zionists, the UN decided to give away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state -- despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.

1948 War
When the inevitable war broke out the outcome was never in doubt, according to U.S. intelligence reports from the time. The Zionist army consisted of over 90,000 European-trained soldiers and possessed modern weaponry, including up-to-date fighter and bomber airplanes. The Arab forces, very much a third-world army, consisted of approximately 30,000 ill-equipped, poorly trained men. The U.S. Army, British intelligence, and the CIA all agreed: it would be no contest.

By the end of the 1948 war the Jewish state -- having now declared itself "Israel" -- had conquered 78 percent of Palestine -- far more than that proposed even by the very generous UN partition plan. And three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees. Over 400 towns and villages had been destroyed, and a new map was being drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock would receive a new, Hebrew name. All vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. In fact, for many decades Israel -- and the US, following its lead -- denied the very existence of this population. Golda Meir once said, in fact: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian."

1967 War
In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful, Pearl Harbor-like surprise attack on Egypt, Israel occupied the additional 22 percent of Palestine that had eluded it in 1948 -- the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Current Conflict
There are, then, two issues at the very core of the continuing conflict and escalating violence in the Middle East:

First, there is the inevitably destabilizing effect of trying to maintain an ethnically preferential state, particularly when the exclusionist entity is of largely colonial origin. As we have seen, the original population of what is now Israel was 95 percent Muslim and Christian. And yet, Muslim and Christian refugees are not being allowed to return to their homes in the current "Jewish state." Israeli peace negotiators refuse to even discuss the possibility of applying this UN guaranteed right.

Second, Israel's continued confiscation of Palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza is being resisted by the Palestinian inhabitants. It is these occupied territories that, according to the Oslo peace accords of 1993, were going to become a Palestinian state. However, when Israel continued to take land in these areas and to move its citizens onto it, the Palestinian population rebelled. This uprising, called the "Intifada" (Arabic for "shaking off") began at the end of September 2000 and continues to this day.

Download more from:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/Download/origin_booklet.pdf

1967 war, not the Pabloized distortion

Self hating Jews for justice, what a joke. The Jews have all sorts of left wing doves that are almost laughable. There is this crackpot Peace Now founder named Shulamit Aloni, she says that she "can understand" why Hitler slaughtered the Jews.

Pablo, you seem to be oblivious of how poor your debating skills are. Sometimes it's better to just quit digging.

Here's a free debating tip:

[Assertion] [Evidence]

This is the basic structure of a debate. You make an assertion and then you back it up by evidence. Evidence can come in many forms. Examples. Links. Commonly known facts.

Your posts seem to be completely devoid of evidence. You make these amazingly arrogant assertions "You Americans don't respect others..." without a shred of evidence. You speak as if it's some sort of given. When many of your statements fly in the fact of known facts, it only weakens your argument further.

I am an American married to a Belgian citizen.....he is simply amazed at the blind patriotism that the people of the US have for their country, it's policies, and their president (and yes, you are correct, to put it less eloquently, he is a DOPE!)....I used to think like some of the others on this site, that our govt. would never censor the news that we hear! That was until my husband would read his local newspaper daily on the internet (Het Van Limburg) and translate it to me.....sometimes, it would be a week or so before our news would report the same news (about MY country!) that was reported in Belgium.....and sometimes, it wouldn't be reported at ALL (ex: the staging of the rescue of a certain POW.....something YOU probably have read)....now I know that some on this website don't give a crap about "what other countries think", but maybe we should, because the sound of the twin towers falling was followed by cheers from alot of people from around the world.....sort of a "take THAT America"!! (which pisses ME off, as I DO love my country)....and it has nothing to do with "jealousy" (like because we have better cable TV)....I am just an average joe here in America (upstate NY to be exact) obviously not as well read as some on this forum, but no dummy nonetheless,....and I think it was a terrible mistake to have poked the Arab nation with a stick....it hasn't solved ANYTHING, and it is till a waiting game....waiting and wondering when they will strike us again...and it's not a matter of "if", but when!

Andrew:
I am sorry if I misinterpreted what you wrote, but I read it again and it sure sounds like that. Maybe you should be a little clearer if you write about such sensitive topics.
About Israels territory. Its a fact that the UN gave 55% of Palestina to Israel. After the war in 48 Isreal kept 78% of the land (If you doubt that there is a map that shows the borders of Israel before the 6 day war if you follow the link from Anthony R)
After the 6 day war Israel occupied all of Palestina.
Now take a look at the history of the conflict. In 1947 the UN decided that 55% of Palestina should belong to the Jews. That land however was not empty. The palestinians were living there and they were driven from their homes. I said earlier that I agree that the Jews suffered greatly, especially during WWII and that they deserve to have a place to live in, but I dont see why the palestinians should pay the price for the crimes committed against the Jews by other countries (please remember that I am talking about the time BEFORE the wars started). This led to the wars (and yes I know that is more complicated then that) and while the arabs did initiate the attacks they didnt do so just because the hated Israel. (I wont argue the fact that a lot of hatred does exist between the two parties though).
After the 48 war Israel held 78% of the country and they refused to let the palestinians that fled the war back into their homes and villages. Instead they kept the land to themselfs. Thus your example with poland was kind of inaccurate. While poland did grow in size the people were not driven from their land.
Israel didnt just reset the borders after winning the war, it also drove the palestinians from their homes. And by large those palestinians were no terrorists or soldiers that attacked Israel. They were just civilians who fled a war or that were exiled during the war. Maybe just civilians who tried to live peacefully with their new neighbours.
Today Israel not only the last 22% of Palestinia, they are also moving settlers into the occupied parts, namely the west bank, and yes I do call that expanding.
Now I want you to remember one thing. I didnt write all of this, nor anything in my previous posts to put the blame soley on Israel, nor to justify even one terrorist attack. I am very much opposed to the killing in Palestina wether its called a terrorist attack or a retaliation strike.
I did make these arguments to show that Israel is partially to blame for the ongoing conflict and thus can be viewed as a thread to world peace. Which is just what that cursed poll asked for, if Israel can be viewed as a thread to world peace.
And I said it before and I will say it again. Just that 59% of the polled think that Israel is a threat to world peace doesnt mean that 59% of the polled think that Israel is the biggest thread to world peace and it certainly doesnt mean that Europe thinks that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace.
I do hope I made myself clear this time.

Since you asked what I propose to solve the conflict. I can olny say that I not as assuming as to propose anything. The situation is too complex and I am to far removed from it to find a good solution. While I tried to inform myself finding and reading neutral information on this topic I know that I am not able to find a good and fair solution that has the chance to bring peace to the region.
I do however know that not every palestinians is an evil terrorist and that getting rid of them alltogether would be a very bad solution to the problem.
In my search for information on the topic I did find a website where peace activist from Israel made a, in my opinion, good proposal. You can find it here:
http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/peace.html

Alex T.:
'And you can come to the US and build a house if you want to; we’re not so small-minded as to persecute someone because they come from another country.'
To make your example more accurate, what if I come to the US and throw you out of your house and live in it?

Anthony R.:
'The Palestinians, by majority are Jew hating terrorists; it looks like they have found a huge group of cheerleaders in the EU. The EU is actually applauding the senseless, terrorist related deaths of Jews, judging from this morally bankrupt poll.'

I am seriously pissed now. How dare you to accuse me of something like that. What kind of stupid, incosiderate, slanderous asshole are you to say that I would cheer for even one terrorist attack, that I could applaud that even one person is killed, that I would even feel the slightest bit of joy over the death of another person.
What you said in those two sentences is so full of hate, so wrong, so defamatory that I can hardly believe that any sensible human being could say something like that. You are either a stupid and inconsidered fool or your one of the biggest, prejudice ladden idiots in the world.
I seriously hope you will apologize for those words.

Styrkar,

there are many factual errors and omissions in your summary of the situation.

For example, Israel did not simply invade Palestinian land, Jordan did. Israel only got the territories when Jordan attacked again and lost. Had Jordan not attacked and had the Palestinians simply accepted the UN plan, Palestine would have been a country a long time ago. But Jordan has and the Palestines didn't. It's their fault, it's that simple.

Also, the Palestinians did not flee the war, they were told by their Arab "brothers" to leave so they could return when Israel was erased from the map. Of course the plan failed and the Arabs prefered to let the Palestinians suffer in "refugee" camps rather than allow them to settle in other Arab countries. Again, it's the Arabs' fault. Israel had nothing to do with that.

Israel isn't to blame for what the Arabs did or failed to do. It's really very simple.

The conflict could be over if and when the Palestinians decide that it can be. There would be no retaliation strikes unless there was something to retaliate for. Again, it's the Arab's fault that the Palestinians continue their "fight" (in the Arab sense of the word, meaning to attack women and children in cafes and supermarkets, because that is really all they can do, isn't it).

The only thing you can blame Israel for is that they retaliate. But who wouldn't?

And even if this was all Israel's fault, it still wouldn't be a threat to world peace because Palestine is not the world.

At the moment the greatest threat to world peace is Muslim, particularly Arab, fundamentalism. If you don't believe me, check out all the current conflicts in the world, and you will notice that only very few of them are not set in an Arab country, next to one, or in a Muslim country, or next to one.

Apparently everybody in the world gets around except Arabs and Muslims in general, or rather the fundamentalists of those. Whenever they get in contact with Christians, Hindus, Jews, atheists, communists, or even each other (or some other Muslim sect) there is instant war forever. Shouldn't that tell us something? Whenever there is war, the "religion of peace" seems to be involved. Odd, isn't it?


Athony R,

not all Europeans are anti-semites, and in my experience most Europeans do not believe that Israel is to blame for the situation. But most people believe that Israel escalates the conflict and most people don't know what the Palestinians constantly do to Israelis. It's ignorance, not anti-semitism per se. Many of us Europeans though do support Israel, the United States, the United Kingdom, and the war on terror, even if our governments don't. When you think of Europe, do not think of those who want you to fail, think of those who want and need you to succeed.

Hippygirl,

1. Blind American patriotism.

What are you refering to? That wasn't the subject of this article. We weren't talking about American patriotism or America even.

2. Censorship.

The same news a week later are not proof for censorship. Where do you get these ideas? As for news about the rescue of a POW, some stations are decent enough not to report on such things until after the deed or not at all. I was horrified by European TV showing American soldiers in Iraqi hands. I thought the Geneva convention forbade showing POWs in such situations. (I was correct.)

3. Solving.

Yes, it has solved something. Iraq got rid of a dictator. The Iraqi people are no longer afraid to speak their mind, which is btw the reason for why they also speak up against the Americans. This is good news. This means the plan is working.

4. If or when.

Yes, they might strike again, but so will the coalition. At some point the enemy will be to weak to strike again and the war will be over. That's how it works. You can always argue that one should simply let the enemy win because the enemy might continue to fight if one doesn't let him. But in contrast to the attack on Iraq THAT strategy will not solve anything.

Uh Hippygirl, just because an American paper chooses not to cover something you think is newsworthy doesn't mean that government censored it.

Anthony, The Palestinians are terrorist’s is a rather broad statement, Some are, some support them and the rest just want to get on with their lives, doing things we take for granted, you no like walking down the street. A bit like the poll taken before the Coalition of the willing invaded Iraq. This poll claimed that a majority of Iraqies supported their leader and hated the US, interestingly another poll taken by the Indian media in secret at the same time and again after showed this to be a complete fabrication, borne out of fear by anyone to make any comment, only those who would comment did, and of course these were people who either feared the government or supported. People in Palestine do live in fear of reprisals from their terroists and their leaders, being in the main the same, so of course they will give a similar result, talk to them candidly and you get the truth. Anthony we both know this to be the reality, don't ruin a well thought argument by these rather baseless comments. Remember in the main most Arabs support the US, again it is the vocal and in many cases bloodthirsty few that do not.

You guys are great!

"BOMB FOR OIL" would make a fantastic sticker for your SUVs

When it comes to winners and loosers, how come you chickens chosed the weakest country to "clean up" when you had several choises amongst the "axes of evil"? Is that what defines a winner; to hit some one that is already weakened by years of embargo? Why don't you good guys take on North Korea instead. That should boost your military industry a little.

Oh by the way, good move to fund the building up of the Talibans in the fight against Sovjet
Good luck in your fight for democracy

Gee, an American says "I don't understand why other countries don't agree with us, of course we're right!!" Hmmm don't hear that very often.
America isn't controlling the world, Israel is. Israel contols Rummy and Chinny. After all, they're the real leaders of the greatest "Free" nation in the world, aren't they?

"People in Palestine do live in fear of reprisals from their terroists and their leaders, being in the main the same, so of course they will give a similar result, talk to them candidly and you get the truth."

Yes of course, and they are more than happy to have their land invaded by Israelis. They are just waiting that Israel finishes constructing the wall and keeping all the water resources to go and live inside the israeli paradise. And the israelis will be more than happy to have them in.

"Solving.

Yes, it has solved something. Iraq got rid of a dictator. The Iraqi people are no longer afraid to speak their mind, which is btw the reason for why they also speak up against the Americans. This is good news. This means the plan is working."

Yes of course, getting the oil from Irak was out of the agenda. This is why Irak is a new Vietnam for the US with more and more soldiers being killed now than during the war. You will retreat.

Iraqi people hates and hates more every day the american (and coalition of the "willing") invaders. This is why the war IS NOT FINISHED at all, why the Iraqis have more support and strenght every day, not less.

From Sep.11 all your enemies are called terrorists. We DONT CARE what you call them. They are not fighting for Saddam Hussein's cause, but for their independence and dignity.

And their cause is fair. I am not the only one to know that you will one day be defeated because you are morally ill.

And i hope that day you'll open your eyes and understand that your country is the biggest criminal of the world, because you barely think before acting, before spitting your pretentions opinions full of disrespect and ignorance. You have supported the most dreadful regimes of this world: Pinochet in Chile, Trujillo, Videla, Franco in Spain, all the most ruthless dictators in Africa, yes you had Bin Laden paid by the CIA to fight against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. All for the interest of the american economy. Yet you speak about promoting democracy. Hypocrites.

This idiocy will one day finish. I hope you are kicked out the arab lands. You have no right to be there.

And don't bother if you are going to answer with your blatant lies and american propaganda. I am too used to see that on the TV. Use real sources of information if you are going to say something.

Anthony R YOU ARE SO FUNNY!!!

You say "not the pabloized version".

All that article is made only with jewish authors, jewish govermnent sources, or jewish-american OFFICIAL sources, so what do you expect? the purpose is to establish a fairytale where the jewish are great and the arabs are pathetic, worthless and terrorists. This is so funny, it's such a good example of propaganda i will use it to teach my groups. Hahaha thank you for the document!! Priceless!! haha!!

Ex-Security Chiefs Turn on Sharon
Government Policies 'Create Hatred,' Israeli Newspaper Is Told
By Molly Moore
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, November 15, 2003; Page A01


JERUSALEM, Nov. 14 -- Four former chiefs of Israel's powerful domestic security service said in an interview published Friday that the government's actions and policies during the three-year-old Palestinian uprising have gravely damaged the country and its people.

The four, who variously headed the Shin Bet security agency from 1980 to 2000 under governments that spanned the political spectrum, said that Israel must end its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, that the government should recognize that no peace agreement can be reached without the involvement of the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, and that it must stop what one called the immoral treatment of Palestinians.

"We must once and for all admit that there is another side, that it has feelings and that it is suffering, and that we are behaving disgracefully," said Avraham Shalom, who headed the security service from 1980 until 1986. "Yes, there is no other word for it: disgracefully. . . . We have turned into a people of petty fighters using the wrong tools."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42821-2003Nov14.html

Dear Styrkar

Thanks for your balanced response