Sorry for the double post. there is an error in the previous post that needs correcting, but there is some sort of error where it won't let me edit my own post.

Anyway, in the passages where I speak of the tutorial, that tutorial was for Icon X, not Desktop X. Please read accordingly. I had a brain fart.

Another reason why personal views should be kept away from the "front page" news.

@ pazl

You said

Like I said, I am a stardock customer and supporter, but I did find it a little odd to find the Desktop X tutorial on the news at Aqua-Soft. I watched the tutorial, and after seeing it I was assured that I still had no need of the program (eventhough I have a stardock subscription). It just doesn't do what AveDesk does and I don't even see how to use Desktop X for Aqua emulation. Not that it was wrong of anybody to post it, but it did seem out of place per emulation possibilities.

Something I'm waiting to get permission for, its a DesktopX weather widget, with an aqua-esq apperance. I'm fairly sure someone could very easily replace the background image with a proper aqua one. So DesktopX can be used for Aqua emulation the same way AveDesk can.

http://www.cadot.plus.com/dx2/Weatherbeam_preview.jpg for full sized

(btw I have both AveDesk and DesktopX object/widgets on my desktop, both at work and at home)

OK, somebody needs to explain to me what Avedesk (or even Desktop X for that matter) does for "Aqua emulation"?

Paxx I think they want to emulate Apples new Widgets thing that Apple incorperated into OS 10.3.
[Message Edited]

pazl: thank you for your thoughtful response.

I didn't go to Aqua-Soft and make a value judgment on the direction of the community until AFTER the blow-up occurred.

So let me address some specific points as concisely as my long-winded nature will let me.

1) There is NOTHING that Avedesk can do that DesktopX can't do. So whatever Aqua emulation you're looking to do with Avedesk can be done with DesktopX.

2) I think the aqua emulation widget apps provide is iffy at best. Other than a general graphical style, for any widget application to take center stage at Aqua-Sot is a real stretch.

3) The order of events is key.  I go onto Aqua-Soft after a long hiatus and begin by participtaing in the ObjectDock forums.  And all is well. 

Then I make some posts about DesktopX in the DesktopX forum. And what do I get? Comments of "What's this? a payware version of Avedesk?" as if DesktopX were somehow new.  But it doesn't stop there.  Several of my other posts elsewhere are followed-up with a "Avedesk can do this better." or "Avedesk can do this and more."  No offense to Avedesk but comparing Avedesk to DesktopX is like comparing Notepad to MS Word. It's a terrific program for taking docklets and putting them on your desktop. But that's about as far as it goes right now. DesktopX can do a lot more than that.

And so anytime I would defend DesktopX against the Avedesk fans who would come into the DesktopX forum and start trolling for Avedesk, they would start taking it like I'm attacking Andreas or something.

This culminated with Avedesk advocates attacking the owners of Aqua-Soft for making a news item for a DX video tutorial.

As someone who has been around Aqua-Soft since it first came into existence, I can tell you the site was never designed to be a partisan for any program.  Andreas has done a great deal for that community and deserves the respect he receives.  But that does'nt make it okay for Avedesk fans to go and denigrate all other programs.

4) You say "Hire a graphics artist to improve DesktopX widgets".  There are lots of beautiful DesktopX widgets/objects/themes already out there.  But your Avedesk bias is getting the best of you considerng that mots of the popular Avedesk widgets are literally stolen graphically from Konfabulator.

5) It should be remembered that there is a freeware version of DesktopX. It should also be remembered that there is a PayPal setup to send money to Andreas.  I think the line is a bit blurred to say the least.

6) I think the bottom line is that placing blame on others for what Avedesk fans did is not helpful.  The "solution" should not be that non-Avedesk developers stop writing about their stuff.

The solution should be that Avedesk fans be a little tolerant. They have their own forum there. Stay there. Don't go into other developer's forums and start trash-talking that app.  Don't go onto news items for other programs and try to explain how what it does could be done with Avedesk:

http://www.aqua-soft.org/index.php/news/2004/08/30/iconx_1_0_released

7) Don't fall for the misconception that Avedesk is somehow really popular simply because it's the most popularly discussed app on Aqua-Soft.  Samurize.com on its own gets more traffic than all the aqua-related sites combined for instance.  DesktopX and Samurize are both much more popular than Avedesk.  To say that DesktopX doesn't come across as favorably as other widget type apps is not borne out by the facts.  I have to ask, have you even LOOKED at the widget section here?

Sure, the stolen Konfabulator graphics look good in Avedesk widgets just like they'd look good on anything. That's why Konfabulator is so popular on the Mac - it is very slick looking.  But what original content there is for Avedesk, which is to say, not much, is no better than the original content for most of the programs out there (including much of the original content for Konfabulator not made by the authors).

8) Avedesk is good but its goodness does not need to be promoted at the expense of other programs that have developers and fans too.

 

Yeah the Widgets are the rage, not to mention being able to build really good frameworks, and use them to anchor other items. I think they forget that DesktopX is alot more than just a Widget Frame. It's getting caught up in the Widgets but it is becoming a very tight and vesatile scripting interface, and it's Dealing with Known Languages. That's the cool part, if you ask Me. And that's the cool Part, even if you don't ask me. I hate to see this strife coming here, though. this is supposed to be a "get away," for alot of folks.
Not a "Oh, Crap!" Here we go with the flamin' and de Bashin'. Wasn't AveDesk on the Front Page News, not too long ago? I mean why would Brad put it there if He was such an ASS?
Why would he Talk about it, promote it, or use it as a comparison for DX? I mean there are alot of Interface Apps out there, and He has his pick of choice. I would take it as a compliment, to be even remotely compared to DX. Hope this all blows over soon. hmmmphh.

4) You say "Hire a graphics artist to improve DesktopX widgets". There are lots of beautiful DesktopX widgets/objects/themes already out there. But your Avedesk bias is getting the best of you considerng that mots of the popular Avedesk widgets are literally stolen graphically from Konfabulator.

This is not true and I find this very very very disrespectfull to some of the people that have been creating graphics for me. All avedesk default widgets don't had any graphics from konfabulator - let alone stolen-, except for the FTP drop where permission was obtained for. Of course, because most of the widgets were skinable, people on the aqua-emu site created konfab-graphics for it. But that happens to windowblinds too (especially at an emu-site), so if I follow your path of saying, windowblinds is using stolen graphics too! See how ridiculous and disrespectfull that is?
Please, before saying something as bold as stolen, get your facts straight, Brad.

I promised myself to stay out of all of this forgood, but I find this offending and disrespectfull to some artists.

There was a lot you could do... I was skinning Workbench and designing icons etc back in 92/93 on the Amiga as an example.

Edit - damn, really should read on and realise there was a 3rd page... mine was a quote to the last of the second page.

Andreas:

I stand by what I've said. The original content for Avedesk is about the same quality as the original content for DesktopX.

So when someone says we should hire a "graphics designer" so that our graphics are as good as Avedesk's I think the real meaning is that we need to have graphics designers so that we can have graphics quality as good as Konfabulator's since most Avedesk users (judging by their screenshots) are just using ripped Konfabulator graphics.

Here's the thread on Aqua-Soft for showing off your Avedesk desktops:

http://www.aqua-soft.org/board/index.php?showtopic=20391

And what do you see? Desktop after desktop of Konfabulator widget graphics.

In fact, it's hard to find a screenshot of Avedesk that doesn't contain ripped graphics.

"All the default Avedesk widgets have original graphics". Yes, and there's what? 4  widgets that come with it? That's what came with the build I downloaded. Sure, that's original artwork but compare that to the default widgets that come with DesktopX. Your default desklets (recycle bin, drive icon, FTP drop, and note app) are essentailly icons.

I think it's safe to say that when people say we need to get more widgets of higher quality graphics what they're really saying is that we need to have widgets that have Konfabulator level quality graphics because that is, as a practical matter, what people are using Avedesk to do:

In your own official release of Avedesk 1.1:

http://www.aqua-soft.org/board/index.php?showtopic=19494

It's mostly ripped graphics in your own screenshots.

The problem is that you are reading way more into my statements than I am really saying.  I'm not being "disrespectful" at all. I'm simply stating what should be to you an obvious fact - the widgets that Avedesk users actually use that have the nice graphics are the Konfabulator rips.

Your default install screen for Avedesk 1.1 has a ripped MacOS X icon right in it. Avedesk, more so than the other widget-type programs, is very dependent on using artwork made by Apple or Konfabulator.

So don't sit there with some sort of holier than thou attitude talking about respecting graphics designers.

To illustrate - I've seen it said that Avedesk gives a better impression than DesktopX because its widgets look better. My response to that is that it's not that Avedesk widgets look better but rather that Avedesk widgets tend to make freer use of the graphics made by others. Because out of the box, I think most people would believe DesktopX's widgets look nicer.

Here are some of the DesktopX widgets that come with it:

Here are the 5 Avedesk widgets that comes with 1.1.

But here is the opening screenshot in the "Show us your Avedesk desktop".

Most of these widgets make use of graphics from Konfabulator or elsewhere as far as I can tell (Certainly the weather one).

I'm not trying to suggest that people shouldn't use whatever widgets they like. I am only trying to point out the fact that it's not really Avedesk widgets DesktopX has to "compete" with but rather Konfabulator based widgets that have been ported to the PC that Avedesk tends to rely more heavily on than the others.

It should also be pointed out, since some people choose not to recognize this, that DesktopX IS freeware.  The existence of an enhanced version does not change that fact any more than the fact that Quicktime is freeware even though a Quicktime Pro exists.  So of course Stardock relies on the skinning community to help create widgets to share. If Stardock had to pay for every widget to be made, then there wouldn't be a freeware version.

"All the default Avedesk widgets have original graphics". Yes, and there's what? 4 widgets that come with it? Your default desklets (recycle bin, drive icon, FTP drop, and note app) are essentailly icons."
7, if I am not mistaken. And what does the point that they are essentially icons have to do with the graphics?

"Here's the thread on Aqua-Soft for showing off your Avedesk desktops: http://www.aqua-soft.org/board/index.php?showtopic=20391"
WOAAAA!!!! That's so strange: they are actually using Apple/konfabulator images on a aqua-emulation site!! wow, man, I would have never thought that.


"It's mostly ripped graphics in your own screenshots."
2 out of 8 using mac icons. In my world, 2 < mean(8), which, mapped to real world talk, isn't mostly.

"Your default install screen for Avedesk 1.1 has a ripped MacOS X icon right in it."
AveDesk came as a ZIP file , maybe someone made an installer for it, can't remember.

"Avedesk, more so than the other widget-type programs, is very dependent on using artwork made by Apple or Konfabulator."

You should keep in mind that the application was born, lived and died on an aqua-emulation site. It was written for mostly the sake of the aqua-community and therefore, most of the graphics used by people using this app are, well how surprisingly, aquayfing things.


"So don't sit there with some sort of holier than thou attitude talking about respecting graphics designers."
Maybe it's time to have a look into the mirror. I'm simply stating what should be to you an obvious fact - you are not always right, I am not always right, nobody is always right.

And what does the point that they are essentially icons have to do with the graphics?

Because in terms of graphics design, there's a difference between drawing a single image (an icon) and a typical widget (like say the weather widget).

WOAAAA!!!! That's so strange: they are actually using Apple/konfabulator images on a aqua-emulation site!! wow, man, I would have never thought that.

Okay, can you point me to a site that has screenshots of Avedesk where they're not using ripped images? Or how about this, what does Konfabulator have to do with Aqua?

"It's mostly ripped graphics in your own screenshots."
2 out of 8 using mac icons. In my world, 2 < mean(8), which, mapped to real world talk, isn't mostly.

Let's assume that you're only using Apple's graphics for 2 of your images. That doesn't really help your argument.  Besides, it's not 2 out of 8. 3 of 8 are Aqua graphics and one of the 8 is the Avedesk logo.  So you're really talking 3 of the 7 widget examples YOU show are using Apple's artwork of of the remaining 4, one of them is the XP recycle bin.

Again - you're on here telling me how disrepectful I am of your graphics designers because I said that DesktopX's original content is AS GOOD as Avedesk's original content and that the reason that someone is likely to think that Avedesk's widgets look "nicer" is because the widgets they're thinking of are ones ripped from Konfabulator or Apple.

BTW, I'm not suggesting I'm always right or that you're always wrong. 

I am, however, submitting that someone who comes away thinking that Avedesk has nicer looking widgets than the other programs is probably believing that because they knowingly or unknowingly are using desklets that take their graphics from Apple or Konfabulator.

And therefore, the original content for Avedesk is at the same level as DesktopX or the others.

"Because in terms of graphics design, there's a difference between drawing a single image (an icon) and a typical widget (like say the weather widget)."

The weather widget has really nothing to do with avedesk, it's for sysstats, which happens to be able to run on avedesk. I always used to describe my application as an icon-type-of-app, not as a widget app per sé.

"Let's assume that you're only using Apple's graphics for 2 of your images. That doesn't really help your argument. Besides, it's not 2 out of 8. 3 of 8 are Aqua graphics and one of the 8 is the Avedesk logo. So you're really talking 3 of the 7 widget examples YOU show are using Apple's artwork of of the remaining 4, one of them is the XP recycle bin."
1 CD drive, 1 HD icon. FTP drop was ported with permission, including the graphics to be used. Also, the use of aqua icons for a release of an application on an aqua-emu site doesn't seem strange to me.. 3 < mean(7). I am under the impression from some posts at some microsoft tech-newsgroup that using MS icons under the MS operating system is alright.

"Again - you're on here telling me how disrepectful I am of your graphics designers because I said that DesktopX's original content is AS GOOD as Avedesk's original content and that the reason that someone is likely to think that Avedesk's widgets look "nicer" is because the widgets they're thinking of are ones ripped from Konfabulator or Apple."
You are making an assumption here I told that I think it is disrepectfull to artists because you said they were ripps. NOT because you said the quality is as good as desktopx.
Maybe I didn't get your point there, if so, I fully admit that.

Okay, can you point me to a site that has screenshots of Avedesk where they're not using ripped images? Or how about this, what does Konfabulator have to do with Aqua?
Gfxoasis for example, but avedesk is not a known application outside the aqua-emu world (insert the logic here yourself).
On aqua-soft, konfabulator is seen as aquayfing. Ask Duckie, who is the most aqua-purist there is.

"And therefore, the original content for Avedesk is at the same level as DesktopX or the others."
I never said anything that implied otherwise and I agree with this.

Also, maybe off topic, but usage of phrases like "in my opinion" or "I think" when you are using things that aren't facts, would do a discussion good. For example, "And therefore, the original content for Avedesk is at the same level as DesktopX or the others.", this is no fact, it's an opinion really. The use of "therefore" isn't really a good choice neither, since there isn't a direct relation between avedesk using konfab graphics and and being at the same level on the original content. (writing course finally paying off )

Also, the screenshot you posted above can never be avedesk 1.1 default, that puzzle desklet wasn't included in the default release.

BTW, How do you do that italic stuff? One can use all HTML-markup codes here?

Frogboy,

I understand that there was a fervor and you were ganged up on, and your reaction was after-the-fact. Honestly its been hard to piece together all the facts of exactly what happened. I absolutely agree that something like this should've never happened, whether it be at Aqua-Soft or anywhere else. It was totally uncalled for. My main hope was to voice that this was due to a small minority who are controlled by certain factors mainly the fear of losing a developer. Regardless of the cause, it does not justify what happened, of course.

Also I can see that something I brought up is getting warped some, so let me back up a little bit about the idea that DEsktopX graphics are not as good as other widget progs. I have seen the DX widget pages on wincustomize. It is not my personal opinion that they are bad, or inferior in any way to any of the other similar programs. I was referring to a news article at aqua-soft where someone from Stardock (I do not know who) made the comment that Desktop X suffered from a lack of good graphic design in general. I do not know, maybe I misread or misinterpreted that article, but my point in my previous post centered around the fact that someone from Stardock made the statement. You are, of course, free to not hire graphic designers if you don't see the need.

A key issue to understand with Aqua-Soft, is that, eventhough there is a lot of original artwork going on there, there is also a lot of "emulating" of graphics, i.e. stealing or ripping. The main point for most people over there, at least for the most part (myself included), is to match the feel of OS X. In fact, my interst in Stardock began for the same reason. I first got WindowBlinds because I saw there was an incredible "Jaguar" skin for it made by Judge as well as a lot of other awesome OSX-style skins. Were those graphics stolen? I do not know. I certainly wouldn't make a point of it if they were. Instead I thank the contributors who made them available. No questions asked.

I have no doubt Desktop X can emulate whatever one wants it to. Although I am a serious modder who has gone to great lengths to learn how to do many things to make my PC not act or look like a PC, it is my own ignorance that I do not know how to use DesktopX in the same way that I can use AveDEsk. Certainly I can see how this must be a frustration for you.

But any Aqua-Soft member who feels threatened by Stardock apps and would attack you or your products is unfair and unfounded. There is no doubt about that.

Let me clarify that I have not chosen AveDesk OVER DesktopX. I do not use Samurize either, or for that matter, Konfabulator on my Mac. AveDesk was made specifically to make it easy to emulate an OS X desktop. With it, right away (using graphics I had accumulated from both Wincusomize and Aqua-Soft sources) I was able to make my PC desktop look exactly like my mac desktop. And that is what I love about it. For me its not about the cpu gauges, or the system monitoring, or widgets that look like konfabulator. It's about getting useable desktop desklets that can be controlled the same way the desktop on my Mac can be controlled. That is what AveDesk does, and that is why it is loved at Aqua-Soft.

The vast majority of members at Aqua-Soft do not condone what happened to you, nor do they blame you for what happened. Anybody who has been involved in internet discussions for any amount of time, knows that flaming and absurd arguments are a major problem with internet communication. I have witnessed it for 12 years. I think a lot of what is going on is misinterpretation and misunderstanding. I know in the end, cooler heads will prevail and greater understanding will eventually be gained by everyone about what app does what, how well, and what for. I hope you will continue to be involved at Aqua-Soft when this is over and I look forward to learning more about what I can do with Stardock apps.

cheers,
pazl

This is Binary from AS and Neowin,

Ave, Please don't quit avedesk over a silly internet debate. You have many real fans who love your work, and use it on their desktops all the time. If you truely love doing this type of thing then do it for these people, and just ignore the ones who bring you down.


Chris

Hi Pazl,

Indeed the order of events is crucial and that's why it ruffles my feathers a bit to somehow be blamed for what happened on Aqua-Soft.

In August I returned to hanging out some on Aqua-Soft after a hiatus. My responses were mostly in the ObjectDock forum.

Then I saw the sheer quantity of posts about Avedesk and made the assumption that people there were interested in widgets.

So I started making some posts -IN THE DESKTOPX FORUM ON AQUA SOFT- about DesktopX widgets.

In response, I would get people making snide remarks about how much better Avedesk was. The culminated with Unbeliever, a news poster and major Avedesk promoter publicly accusing us of releasing DesktopX 2.2 around the same time as Avedesk 1.1 to steal their thunder.

So okay, I'm annoyed but I'm pretty thick skinned so I didn't say anything in response. I just let it pass even though we're talking quite a few people doing this over days and days.

So then I submit the IconX 1.0 release news item. To that we get more Avedesk fans coming on and saying how this would have been done better with Avedesk or why would anyone want to use IconX when there's Avedesk.

At that point, I'm quite annoyed. First, because Avedesk can't do what IconX can do. They're unrelated programs. It's like those people who say you should get Litestep instead of using WindowBlinds. It's nonsensical. 

At that point, I'm merely politely pointing out that IconX is not related to Avedesk.

A few days later I make a video tutorial on how to put desktop objects on your desktop. This also is one of the more common ways Avedesk seems to be used - to have big Aqua-like icons on your desktop. My video essentially shows how someone could do the same thing.

In response, Andreas comes on and says he doesn't think such a news item is appropriate. With that, the flood gates open and the Avedesk trolls jump on and go nuts.

The news item is closed and a forum post is brought up to talk about the issue. Once again, the Avedesk fans jump in and start slamming all things that aren't Avedesk (Ask Tim or Chris about all the posts they had to delete that were from Avedesk zealots).

Fed up, Tim shuts down the forums.

And from this the Avedesk zealots, totally unaware that they were the cause of this, blame us. 

It's like blaming some guy for wearing the wrong colors in a particular part of town for having a bunch of thugs run up and attack him.

What's really absurd is that as people here on WinCustomize know, I've promoted Avedesk on a number of occasions in articles and posts and news items.  I'm not out to get Avedesk.  I just think that its more vocal users have a serious problem with tolerating other views.

And Andreas - you can't have it both ways.  You can't say "Well yea, Avedesk is mostly used on Aqua-Soft so most of the widgets for it are from ripped from Konfabulator or MacOS" and then complain when I point out that there isn't a heck of a lot of original artwork being made expressly for Avedesk. 

One question I wanted to ask Pazl,

In what way does Avedesk (or any widget program) help you in Aquifying your desktop?

If I wanted to make my desktop look similar to MacOS X I would use:

WindowBlinds with a Panther/Tiger visual style

ObjectBar with a Panther/Tiger skin

ObjectDock with a Panther/Tiger theme

The only thing I might use DesktopX or some widget program for would be for the actual desktop icons:

But I could do that with IconX (www.stardock.com/products/iconx) which automatically will use your existing desktop icons instead).

This screenshot is DesktopX though.

 

 

But I don't really see widget programs really getting that into the mix.

 

nevermind, it didnt come across the way I meant. sorry.
[Message Edited]

Wow. What community was that and what skinnable apps were you running back then?

i was actually part of no one community ... i was more the drifter.... i used many items to modify my desktop.. mainly LiteStep.. i remember when it was released.....sorry if my dates and times of my first getting in to modifying desktops is a little vague. blame it on senility .. or blame it on my not thinking id need to verify it to anyone... but .. this is also not the only name im known by ... but i felt the need to join and support this community.....

[Message Edited]

well, to answer frogboys question, ave desk was made for us users at aquasoft. so it has a couple of nice touches. like a box effect when u click on an icon on the desktop. and labels. and drop shadows. and ave has pritty much bended over backward filling in requests to help make it better emulate osx.

the widgets in question arn't from avedesk, but a program called systats. with habbens to work with ave desk.

aqua soft memebers like avedesk cuase the creator is a member there.or was anyway...
it is wrong to speak negitivly about other apps, and im sorry some members gave u such a hard time...

anychance we can forgive and forget?
really were all working for a common goal here, to make our computers look unique. should it matter what we use?

what i don't get about all this is why bother changing your whole desktop to a mac when you can just go out and buy a mac? Makes no sense to me all. I guess maybe because mac has about 5% of the software that Windows has. A copy of something is still a copy no matter how you dress it up. Why not have the real thing? I do like the mac wallpapers that are all wispy but that doesn't really count.

I dont really get the whole mac on a pc look either,but that is why we skin....because windows was ugly.
I have a lot of admiration for Andreas and Frogboy both...none of this seems necessary in a community that just wants to make pc's more fun(and usable)

AndreasV...dont give up...you have a great future in this.

Brad...dont let the vocal minority get you down...Stardock is a wonderful company.Its not like you were gouging us pricewise...OD is very affordable for all that it provides.
[Message Edited]

Screw Aqua-Soft. They're a bunch of ripping theives stealing from Apple.