!

/me hand Jafo a nice cold brewsky in a frosty chilled glass. chug a lug

/me grabs that frosty brew, drinks it & hands Paul the Mug.... Can you get me another, Please?

EventHorizon is too young to drink...*Grabs some fizzy grape juice* Hey, Jafo, can I have a sip?

I need to clarify something here:

One and most importantly NO I DO NOT CONSIDER THE ADMINS AND WC MY SLAVES/WAITERS and whatever other terms and references were made. If my comment eluded to that, then that IS MY ERROR, and for that I WILL apologize. That isn't the point I was trying to get across. I then clearly made a big fubar with the vehicle I used to try and make a point.


Two, IN NO WAY do I think I am harming WC by pulling my designs. My designs not being here mean nothing, I am not an egotistical person.Me not being here means NOTHING, I am not that delusional. Those that KNOW me know that I am not like that AT ALL! Do I think I have potential, HELL YEAH I DO! I KNOW I DO! But there are far better than me out there, and I do my best to get better each time I make something new. So this theory that we think we're hurting WC for pulling our stuff is way way off.

Someone made a psychological evalution if you will that those of us that are ranting or doing the drama thing as most prefer to call it, are really doing it because we really didn't 'want' to leave. Can't say that is totally proposterous. My guess is that originally most that leave are very apprehensive and would rather not. I being one of those. I didn't want to leave originally, but I could in no way have an ounce of dignity if I hadn't. All anyone EVER wanted was to be involved in a skinning community that they could contribute to, grow with the site, and 'contribute' the heck to! But as it's been noted, wall designers a dime a dozen (Or whatever the penny statement was) Frogboy was clear that he could careless about it either. How are we to read such statements and not feel the way that we have and not get FLAMED??? All anyone wanted was to make their little creations, 'contribute' all that we had, feel as though we were needed just as much as WC was needed. But that isn't how MANY have felt. I KNOW I'm not alone on that. Hell I've gotten emails this very day/night about it.

I have seen the statements on the threads over my time here, where someone new to it all asks a goofy question or the like, and one person makes a CRUEL and smartass comment, then the bandwagon begins and the thread has now turned into a big pick on the goof thread. IT IS WRONG! I have witnessed in threads someone trying to get a point across about something that doesn't feel or seem right/fair or whatever and get hammered. IT IS WRONG. So my statement about 'service' in a previous post was merely that, WC is a skinning community that in a sense links to Stardock. MANY of us came here first looking for WALLS, stumbled across so much more, then checked out Stardock, then downloaded the trial, then said, "K...I'll buy". I know others have as well. So if this was a nice, non condescending place, that treated people as though they are wanted and needed...then imagine how much MORE money's would be spent on products and subscriptions. That was MY POINT on the 'service' thing that I obviously fumbled and it went a whole wrong path. Again I can and have no qualms with apologizing for a vehicle I use to get to my point, but I do not apologize for saying that Frogboy wants to make his money--software to sell, and buy a subscription or contribution in return for the space, so why not make those people feel around here as they freakin' mean something. I will NEVER apologize for that. And everyone would have won then.

Yes, skinners/artists whatever we want to call it, want their stuff up...tell me what is wrong with them wanting to be treated as they are a valued part of a community. In return, the site prospers, as there are happy freakin' people feeling as they are in one damn cool place. They want to contribute more, get their subscriptions, buy their products! If there is an air about an enviroment that makes it's contributors feel as though they should just be grateful they have a place for their stuff, and that's good enough, you can ONLY FIND ANIMOSITY! YOu can't possibly nail me to a wall when most artists/skinners that leave here, or take a break and go to another site so they can figure out where they want be, have that turmoil for the same reasons, over and over again. It's never new, most have the same problem. So why is it so damn hard to say, wait a minute, ok there's a pattern here. Instead, it's, "Oh its the same thing again, another artist is gettin' to big for the britches. Let the dimwit go who cares! Their clueless dramatic fools, that know nothing!" This 'wall designer' is NOT too big for her britches, in the LEAST!

What you need to do is get rid of this damned message forum!!!! This is where the main problem begins. I know I was a great deal happier before I chose to click it that one afternoon months ago. Before then I was just pickled to see my work up and getting downloaded, then I saw how folks to speak others and was blown the heck away! And realized that maybe people aren't so nice and friendly around here!

All message boards have their share of angst. If you think WC's is "not nice" perhaps you should check out dA's for instance. I am a regular on there as well and if you think it's a "Friendly" message board then all I can say is you haven't either been there long or looked very much. It's a rougher place. The average age there is 17 (their own stats) and conversations tend to come from that point of view.

And a little honesty wouldn't kill anyone here. Everyone who has submitted something to a website knows it is a tedious, time consuming process.  One doesn't remove their stuff on a lark. They do so because they feel very strongly about something.

You feel strongly that wallpaper artists aren't treated well. But what deeds lead you to that conclusion? Because walls are moderated?  That is the only material deed in play here.

Because you must realize how petty it would come across to other adults that you pulled your stuff because you didn't like what someone said on a message board.

You're right that I don't care about wallpapers. Not even in the slightest. There are lots of sections I don't care about.  Hence, I use the word "I". I didn't say "Stardock" doesn't care. Nor did I say "WinCustomize" doesn't care. In fact, I expressly said "I personally think that the wallpaper section is a waste of bandwidth."

There are other sections I personaly feel that way too about (Kewlpad for example).

All the evidence points to the same conclusion -- you removed your stuff because of opinions expressed on a message forum. Opinions that have nothing to do with actions.

Am I or someone else to worry that someone is going to remove their wallpapers because they say "I don't like red wallpapers" and someone who makes red wallpapers quits in a huff?

Imagine if the volunteer moderators and admins of this site took your attitude. That when they felt attacked (And unlike you, they actually have gotten truly flamed) they just up and quit. Where would the community be then?

What you don't see is that your particular drama has been acted out dozens of times over the years and many old timers have grown weary of it. There is always some newcomer (and no offense ubt you are a newcomer) who believe he or she is wiser or is a champion for some unspecified downtrodden.  Oh the woe, some 5 minute bryce wallpaper didn't get put up. So yea, eventually long timers here do get a little fed up with the dramas and have little patience for the same old complaints. Perhaps each complaint should be handled as if it's the first time but you're dealing with human nature and the same thing will happen anywhere you go on the net.

But getting back to pulling your stuff off. Look, if you're not willing to be honest about your motives then there's not much point in trying to have a conversation. Given the amount of time it takes to submit work, pulling your works is designed to keep site X from benefiting from your contributions. It is certainly your right to do so. But be honest about it.

You must confess it was incredibly tacky on your part to talk up how much better you think deviantART is than WC.

As for money and WC as an advertising vehcile, the same is true of any site. deviantART, Deskmod, Skinbase, even Customize.org and Skinz.org have sections for Stardock's stuff and all in sufficient quantities for critical mass.  It may be hard for you to believe but Stardock supports this site as part of its contribution to the community. I.e. giving something back. I realize that you probably believe that only you do altruistic things but yes, amazingly enough other people, including companies, do altruistic things at times. The only stock holder Stardock has to answer to is me and as a result it can do things that are not necessarily great business decisions but are good community decisions.

 

I am the one who made a psychological evaluation …. I dabbled in psychology a bit…anyhow from what I can read you detail an extraordinary tale of woe. Maybe if these guys were all trained psychologists they could make every visitor and artist feel wanted and needed …or better yet the site can be pink to sooth the deranged. I understand that a lot of people get sensitive but sometime the world will not revolve around you and you just have to do your own thing as long as the end justifies the means what do you care how you accomplished it so long as it is done? Millions of people go to work doing things they really don’t want to do to make money and responsibility sends them on their way every morning. You claim to enjoy art so imagine if you had to earn a living doing something you really didn’t like? This says a lot about your character and you should do the best job you are capable of even if the circumstances seem grim.

Ap67, I'm sure you'll be happy on dA. Some of your wallpapers are nearing he 100 download mark I saw.

Ap67, I'm sure you'll be happy on dA. Some of your wallpapers are nearing he 100 download mark I saw.

*Doesnt find it funny in the slightest.*

*Doesnt find it funny in the slightest.*

Nor do I. Alot of people said some really ugly things in this thread and others, but if you read post #7, before both sides went to battle, I think A_67 was quite the gentleman about it. EH asked what happened to him, he said he left. Did he say why? no because when you start mentioning names and reasons you end up with 300+ ugly malicous comments over lots of threads that make everyone look childish. He originally chose the no drama route (he was gone for days before this thread started) and was hit with mud long before he started slinging it. And he got credit for alot of things he didn't say too. Sure it's the artists loss leaving this site, it gets more traffic than the other places by far and wincustomize will survive and prosper without any single one of us. I bet that thought crossed his mind when he deleted his library. Must've felt pretty strong about something better left unsaid, Ya think? I would guess that Brad's wallpaper remark in the other thread had something to do with it. I'll go on the record and say it offended me and I don't even do walls. It also isn't the first thing I've read from Brad I thought rude and uncalled for. Though you say "I" and distiguish yourself from Stardock and\or Wincustomize, alot of people aren't going to make that distinction because of who you are, I didn't when I read it, and I'm sure that's a tough thing to deal with on a daily basis when trying to speak your mind. And I find it hard to believe no one's even heard of a guy (A_67) who spent the last 2 months on the top authors list as well as made some of the more popular Windowblind themes in recent months. Regardless of userId's and apprentice status and whatnot, 300,000+ in a couple of months is a worthy achievement. I'll also say I respect the moderators and admins here cause they will never EVER please everyone and they do get alot of undeserved grief. They have helped me many times and always been polite and curtious (probably in spite of my own attitude once or twice) and no doubt with better things to do as well I am proud to call Apocalypse my friend, He is a very talented artist and a very nice person, and I'm sure he never wanted any of the drama which has unfolded, and though he may be forgotten quickly in such a big place, as we all will be should we choose to stop our contributions, Wincustomize would be a better place with him here.

knatzz: You are absolutely right that it wasn't A_67 who started the mud slinging. It was directly started by a statement from two people about him going to DA and there being no moderators there. It wasn't a throw away comment, it was an 'In your face' shouting (all caps). This was an uncalled for response which made it descend to the depths it did. If those two statements had not been made I doubt it would have gone this route at all.

What would you recommend to fix the problems you see? please be specific in what the problem is and what you think would solve it

Over the past year I have gradually seen the messageboard decline into the current state. I will outline the main problems I perceive:

1. Too many things aired in public which should have been a private dialogue with the admins or the people concerned.

So many times someone says something which causes other people to react in an uncivilised way in response to something that should never have been public. I am as guilty of this as anyone. When I see someone knocking the site, admins or the skinners I tend to react as if they were directly attacking me. I am trying to stop doing that.

If when someone posted something which was likely to cause this they were advised to speak to an admin and the topic could be closed I think it would help.

People should also be advised to contact the admins when they think of a good idea for a change or notice a problem with the site. This way all admins can discuss and decide what ideas are good and should be publicly voted on or which should be implemented without a vote etc.

Ideally there would be a general email rather than having to contact specific admins which would mean that a specific 'nicer' admin wouldn't get overburdened.

eg [email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
etc.

2. People jumping to conclusions without all the information.

Often someone will post what they perceive as a sensible non inflamatory message only to be shot down immediately since they didn't realise the topic had been thrashed out 50 million times already and everyone was sick of it.

3. People feeling the need to post in public that they are going elsewhere because of xyz.

This only serves to make your leaving a bad experience for all concerned. You will get one of two responses:

A 'Don't let the door hit you on the way out'
B 'Please don't go, we love you really'.

4. People being under the misaprehension that all skinners sites are against each other and you can't belong to more than one.

They're not. I am a member of a fair few and do post my skins to all.

5. People moaning that Wincustomize is not a 'community' site.

What is a community site? A community is what you make of it. We are all part of the community and if the community is not nurturing and helpful to newbies then who's fault is that? The members of the community, not the site it's 'hosted' at. There are many parts to this community.

There is one which meets on the wincustomize channel on IRC regularly and chats about all things under the sun and occasionally skinning.

There is the one on the stardock channel on IRC which chats mostly about skinning and occasionally descends into inane chatter.

There is the one which stays on the messageboard and will never touch IRC.

There are probably ones that most people don't even know are there as they are not public.

Some people cross over into several, some stay in their own and never stray.

There are many people here. All with differing opinions and reasons for coming here. Some come for wallpapers only and haven't ventured into skinning. Some come for the skins and can't see the point in the walls as they never see their desktop anyway. Some come for a chat and a laugh. Some come for all of them. There are bound to be fallings out and disagreements as there is in any real community. Look at your own family. If everytime I had a disagreement I had run away from home to join another 'community' I'd be forever travelling. I guess what it comes down to is do we care about the site? Do we care if it's going down the toilet? If not then leave by all means. If you do then stay and try and make a difference. Just try to make it in a way that won't make things worse.

6. People have forgotten the golden rule of skinning.

SKINNING SHOULD BE FUN!!!!!!

and this means for all involved. Fun when making the skin and fun for the people using them. It should also be fun for the admins.

----

Of course this whole message goes against perceived problem 1.
[Message Edited]

Excellent post from pjpowell. Says it all

OK, Phil. Sounds fair and makes a lot of sense.

The only reason I bought SS and WB4 was this website.So Frogboy when you say Stardock could get along without it ,maybe,but I expect you would see a loss of new customers.This site made me want to buy your product and SKIN!I love it here.I appreciate the admins and volunteers.I could understand if you had said you didnt know who I was, I'm new and just beginning to contribute.But I find it curious and depressing to hear you say you didnt know who Apoc. and Akasha were.2 prominent and talented artist.I can see how it might appear to others that the artist dont mean much to you.Then to tell them that you could see no evidence of their contributions when Jafo just mentioned they're works were fully restorable seems strange.Obviously the data is still there.


[Message Edited]

On the flip side so Frogboy dosnt think I put all the blame at his feet,I really wish Apoc. and Akasha would stick around and work thru this.Why cant they just post their stuf here too.I dont want to go anywhere else to get their work.I like it here.(but I will pay them a visit at skinbase if they are there.I think they are.)

Ap67, I'm sure you'll be happy on dA. Some of your wallpapers are nearing he 100 download mark I saw.



*Doesnt find it funny in the slightest.*


EH and Knatzz......ok maybe i should not have laughed but Brads comment does say a lot............Are these people who are leaving going to be happy that their excellent work is only going to be enjoyed by a handful of people. Whether anybody likes it or not one of the biggest pleasures about making skins or whatever is watching a lot of other people downloading your work and hopefully enjoying it.

IR Braniac:

There are a handful of things that bother me and I will always speak out against:

• Not taking personal responsibility
• Hypocricy
• Double Standards

For instance, I did not enter into this morass until it was well on its way. For someone to try to retroactively blame some post by me is simply a case of not taking personal responsibiltiy.

I also dislike hypocricy. And we saw that. We have seen a few people who are immensely sensitive to their own feelings being hurt dish out some pretty nasty words towards other.

And finally, the double standards issue is the biggest. I don't like elitism. And it gets pretty old seeing "artists" act like they are somehow superior to everyone else. They want "respect" and "fairness" while giving none themselves.

It's okay for someone to heap abuse on the admins or moderators apparently but if they don't respond with "Thank you, may I have another..." then they get accused of being "Rude".

"Artists" need to wake up and recognize that the relationship between them and skin/art sites is symbiotic. They need to lose the attitude that they are blessing us with their presence and work.  They share their content and the site distributes it paying the bandwidth and drive space costs. They don't have to pay a cent for this. They don't even have to show appreciation for this.  But they cannot take on the attitude that we're just their servants waiting to be slapped around.

This site has something like two dozen sections. When was the last time you saw a DesktopX theme author or WindowBlinds skin author or Icon author coming onto these message boards complaining about the site? I can't remember a time. It's always the wallpaper authors.

And frankly, it's hard to take seriously anyone who would remove all their work over something trvial in a message board. It is childish in my view. But it's their decision to make. But once they do so, rather than posting various "in your face" posts about how tehy are going to another site, I wish they'd just go.

here here

I agree the admins have been taking a beating lately.(unwarranted)Lots of people jumping on innocent post(unecessary)and over the top defensive reactions by nearly everyone(human nature,but it just makes things worse).I'm loving this place.Where else can a first time WB skinner rack up 10'000 dl in the first month.A 15 to 1 ratio compared to the next best site I'm on.25 comments compared to 1 or 2.Do I think they were insulted or slighted?Yea...but so were you and the admins.

You bring up a good point IR.

A moderator is someone who was once a user who, over time, has not only demonstrated a commitment to the community through their efforts but in addition has volunteer his or her time to help the community by helping run WinCustomize.

So when a lady Akasha yells at Jafo or Boxxi or even me, they're yelling at someone who has volunteered their time. Volunteers don't tend to take well to being abused or treated like servants.

I'm sure if Stardock were willing to pay me or Jafo or Paxx or DavidK or whomever $25 per hour  to "run the site" even we'd be willing to turn the other cheek more readily. But we're volunteers here (yes, even me). And so we feel ill-used when people start attacking us.

I was reading some of GA, AP67 & LA comments to eachother over at DA.

Seems that Lady A has a pet name for you, FrogButt

Seems that Lady A has a pet name for you, FrogButt

ah-oh.....time for a new icon

It's not just the attack one is currently faced with. The hurt incurred from getting attacked like that is cumulative, I think. It builds up over time. And this disrespect for the moderators and the community at large is recurrent. It is human nature to reach a point where you say 'no more, not this time'. It gets into a round-robin (is that the word?) --disrespect caused the reaction, the reaction fueled disrespect which inflamed more reaction.... and so it goes. Communicating through a message board one has to be aware of the power of trends. That is why, when a flame war starts, it is better to avoid them entirely. Because when the war is long gone, the burn-out drags on and on and on and carries over onto other things.

Another thing I have noticed is that it gets easier to respond, or attack like that the more often you do it. At least that has been my experience. I have sometimes gone away thinking ... who was that just talking just now? Was that really me? It isn't worth it.

That's just my opinion.
[Message Edited]

Good point GM.

"Seems that Lady A has a pet name for you, FrogButt"

China..........Does that not just say everything.......rather childish and immature.......just like the "i'm not playing anymore and i am taking my ball home as well" attitude.