It appears the Iraqi defense minister has capitulated.

Could mean the 'official' war is over, with just the usual 'crap' to tidy up....

Here's hoping....

Now there's an oxymoron .... the "Iraqi Defence Minister". >

bakerstreet
I also noticed how quiet it got here.

Jafo, I can suppose the crap you are referring to, I sure hope as well that its not too messy.

I heard that too Jafo. It sounded strange... wasn't a day ago that 'the day of death' was at hand?

The war part might be over, but the 'real' fun of rebiulding can be more hazordous. Will the fallen rigime become terroist and inflame the population to do stuff that would otherwise be solved peacefully?

Will Iraq become Palestine where no real justice happens and the mob rules? Will terrorist get a foot hold in the minds of people and become a way to get money and become a self feeding system of voilence?


Seems like to me the work has just started. The right things has to be put in place to avoid that, otherwise more suffering and death and wars.


Yes, I too, am watching who the exiles Iraqi business men an opposiion are. Just because Saddam didn't like them, doesn't mean they are trustworthy.

I would guess they have a chance to be better men and not do anything that would be considered illegal, unlawful, unjust, and stupid.


Mistakes can be made but not if it is done on purpose.

Baghdad Bob, as he is referred to now, hasn't been seen since that last press conference. Brief hiatus or air-strike? Time will tell.

One blankety-blank I would like to see sit for a long, painful interview is the Iraqi ambassador to the UN. He made a lot of outrageous statements throughout this affair that I would like to see fed back to him in slow monotone.

Granted, all these guys were doing what they were told to do, but the ambassador frequented 4-star restaurants and snorkeled down large quantities of champagne while his countrymen were being forced into tanks at gunpoint. He should be shown that supporting that regime from the comfort of the UN isn't any different than supporting it from a trench. If ya ask me, it is about time to deport him, since the government he works for no longer exists.

I really hope we round a lot of these guys up and send them to Kuwait. They have had an active war-crimes investigation there for 12 years, pleading for international help. It would be a shame to send Saddam's scum to Europe so they can screw up yet another war crimes tribunal.

Milosevic: " *cough* *whine* but i done FEEEEEL like going on trial... *cough* "

I wouldn't expect much from a Koweit war-crime tribunal, you know. Koweit isn't exactly a democracy either.

Anyway, glad this war is over. I wonder if we'll ever know the true number of victims on all sides.
As for wether or not the US/UK troops are wecomed, it's too early yet to tell. We'll see what happens with that interim government.

And bakerstreet, you anti-European attitude is worse than any anti-American attitude I have ever seen.

And one more thing, by doubting the legitimacy of the The Hague tribunal, you are adopting exactly Milosevic's arguments. Him too keeps rejecting the validity of the tribunal.
So what's is your point exactly againt The Hague? The trial only really started two months ago, and we know that kind of trial can last a while. Anyway.

I'm sorry, paxx, have I said anything that wasn't clear?

I think it is pretty clear what I think about the Hague. You do realize they arrested Milosevic in April, 2001 and his first day in court was Feb. 12, 2002? He refuses to take his blood pressure medicine, and they give him a 'few days off'. He has refused a lawyer, and hasn't shown up 40 times. Hasn't shown up??? for a trial??? I mean, gah, paxx, doesn't that seem wussy, even for the Hague? Do you think I could go on trial here in the US and just not show up? Damn, if he *does* show up, they expect the trial to last til 2005.

The man is wanted on 66 counts of war crimes, personally ordered *and* witnessed untold numbers of people executioned just because of their ethnic background, and they can't even keep him in the court room. No, I see little to approve of there. Limp, whitebread, impotent.

I bet the people he victimized could do a much more efficient job. I would expect a great deal more from a Kuwaiti war-crimes tribunal... They have made their intentions quite clear, I think.

executioned = executed. spell checker slip

Do you know a tribunal in a democratic country that deals with these big bandits quickly?
We have a trial in Montreal going right now, for a bunch of Hells Angels criminals. Trial's been going on for a few years now and is still not about to end. That's the problem with democracy, ciminals know how to take advantage of it too. For sure, in countries such as Koweit or other Arab monarchies/dictatorships, justice is much more swift.

> Anyway, glad this war is over. I wonder if
> we'll ever know the true number of victims
> on all sides.

Where do you get that? There's still all the northern cities take. Many, many more people are going to die. My guess is this war is only about half-over. After seeing how sensitive you have been over simple arguments on this message board (the "Brad is a Nazi" thread comes to mind), I can only imagine how this war tears you up. Peace is good. Peace at any cost is not. All parties involved have to want peace or it's just not going to work. Sometimes the other guy gust needs some convincing.

-----------------------------------------------

Funny how western (US, Canada, Europe) peace-nics still spout their crap when Iraqi people are holding up signs that say "human shields go home", "our hero of peace and freedom" with a picture of George Bush, and thanking Mr. Bush on TV. Apparently, the population of the country that the U.S. "invaded" wanted to be "invaded". If they haven't figured it out by now, they'll never get it. Even after 12 years of UN impotence, inaction, and self-serving, self-important behavior...and 12 years of Sadam's torture, oppression, UN non-compliance laughing in the face of the UN...yeah, we should have given it another 12 years...

I guess I can't really blame them...I'm sure they see me as being blind on the other side.

That makes you wonder then though. Who are they (US/Britain/Oz) fighting against? It's not like there's some foreign force occupying the country. The repression comes from within.

Crae, please explain...I do not understand the point you're trying to make.

The "War" (or should that Police Action?) is far from over, and the "Peace" will be an even harder struggle.
No one even knows where Hussein is so far .... and I'll believe the Al-Jazera reports before CNN.
Useless but interesting information, Rupert actually pays to use Al-Jazera footage .... which,(Al-Jazera) when it comes down to the crunch, is really just a typical cable news operation.

What I mean is: if the Iraqi people want to be liberated so eagerly, then what are the forces the US et al faces? Are they not Iraqi as well? Are they repressing themselves then?

Orion, we don't know yet if the people you refer to represent a majority.
Just a few days ago, they were saying quite the opposite.

I don't have an opinion on this yet. I just want to wait a few more days/weeks, and see how it turns out. Right now, all wew know is that some people went in the streets welcoming the US. Do most Irakis feel the same? Unknown yet.

But yes, what I am indeed sure of, is that everybody is happy to be rid of Saddam. But who will replace him? That is possibly what a lot of people are waiting to see.

As for you first paragraph, well, I'm starting to wonder if there ever was actually a war. Looks to me that Iraq was reall just an unorganized, militarely incapable rogue country. Anyway, whatever it was, it's over. The outcome makes no doubt anymore. There are still pockets of resistance here and there, and there could be many terrorist acts for the next few years, but essentially, it looks to be over.

I think someone should put a bullet through the heart of this miserable thread and end our suffering....

We thrive on making you suffer, Jam.

Crae: I got it now....retoric...you know the answer to that. If you honestly do not, well...let's just say I gave you a lot more credit than you're due.

paxx: Time will answer all of the questions. No argument there. I suspect that several days ago, the population was still too afraid to speak up, and now they have a little bit more of a comfort zone. I have no doubt that it will be a vast majority of the population will be happy about this invasion...but again, only time will tell for sure. A country is large place and I'm sure there will be pockets of resistance for some time to come. That happens here in the US from time to time too.

JM33: Although I do not agree with the anti-war people, it is interesting and enlightening to debate the issue...I like to learn. I like to try and have an open mind and at least try to understand their train of though. If nothing, it has strengthend my opinion. I'm not suffering at the result of this thread. I may not change their minds, and I doubt they're going to change mine...but it is much better to at least understand where they're coming from...it's healthy.

Uh oh, I'm losing credit!

It has nothing to do with rhetoric. So the Iraqi's are glad to be freed. But their captivators were Iraqi themselves. So that must mean that either not all Iraqi's are happy (the oppressing force sure wouldn't) or that there were mind games going on.

@ crae....

i´m sure that most Iraqis are happy that Saddam´s rule is coming to an end.

i´m not so sure that the Iraqis love the US now, our television also showed people that were threatening to kill Bush if he dares to visit Iraq i have to agree with Orion that the war is only half-over.

one major opposition group is already speaking of civil war if there will be an US general installed. http://www.irna.com/en/head/030410131053.ehe.shtml

btw: did you know that Ahmed Chalabi (the Pentagon´s favorite) left Iraq in 1956 when he was 11 years old. that was before the Baath party took power. i wonder what backing this guy has in the population (probably none).

You're right! rhetoric was not the correct term..."splitting hairs" or "picking pepper out of fly poop" would indeed fit much better. Pretty much that statement is a big "Duh". I guess I should have said "the Iraqi general population that is not part of the government or loyal to Sadam" instead of "Iraqi people" sorry...I won't let it happen again.

Baghdad is a city of 5 million people (or somewhere between 2 and 5 million depending on who's statistics you hear) and all the videos I saw of the happy Iraqis was from the same events and never looked like more than maybe several hundred people at the most. Anti-war demonstrations in even small cities in the US looked like twenty times more people in the street.

I'm sure there is great joy that Saddam is gone. It's obvious that the Ba'ath party is finished. I think it's also obvious that there is a sense of fear and mistrust in these people about what is to come. It will take a while to see how the plan is accepted and how Iraq's neighbors in the region react to it.

I don't see America pouring billions of dollars more into Iraq. Where is all this money coming from? We have an all-time record deficit already, plus record homelesness record unemployment, increasing poverty, deteriorating schools and one of the worst public health systems in the world. Add to that the decline in retail sales, declining wages and drastically reduced tax revenues due to the bad economy and Bush's trillion dollar tax cut. We may need to be liberated by a wealthy country too....