kona

I had a top of the line Trek but it got stolen...... >

mebbee I get me a kona wit de disc brakes.....

Ok, I'm not reading the "1080 posts". But I'm going to say that I know people that are over there and they so badly want to come home. Plus some of the stuff that's been going on, they've seen many of their friends get killed or become POW. I just wish they took care of this faster. To be honest, it should of been done many years ago. And all these other countries that didn't want us to go in, the reason for that is because once we get in there and find the weapons. They will say who they are made from. Then more hell will go on. It will never end. And I think this is the beginning of WWIII. Like it would lead up to it with the actions going on now. But I give probably 5-15years maybe before that even attempt to go on.

I just wanted to say my peace ok, we now take you back to your orignal broadcast.

Iplural
Regarding your post #1047

Where I like things simplistic, they never really are. You gave an example of marriage...Marriage at its very best is HARD. Misunderstandings, changes, and events can put two people at complete odds, and these are from two individuals that profess to love one another and vowed to remain that way forever. The statistics on marriages speak for themselves!

When you gave examples of 'really evil', did that mean that you don't think the present Iraqi regime is evil? And the examples of evil you gave, THEN would it be ok to go to war with them?

You would have the world enter into a "marriage" with the very likes of nature or worse, that you have listed on your post, with Iraq?

What 'evils' do we know about?
~Saddam kills his own people http://www.ibb.gov/editorials/09782.htm

~He is suspected of producing and using chemical weapons on his own people http://www.ibb.gov/editorials/10093.htm &
http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/index.asp# (click on slide show)

~On American Television I have heard women give details to their oppression, stories of rape, and also of abuse of young girls inside of Iran, the kind of behavior you cited as evil.

~As the war unfolds, more and more linkage is being shown between Iraq and the same band of terrorist that dropped 3 airplanes in our backyard in New York, Washington DC and Pennsylvania. Several Australia and now British newspapers are saying that they are not just fighting with Iraqis, its become clear to them that they are also fighting with bin-Laden's mob.

~Stoires are being told by the so called people who went to Iraq to be a human shield, got quickly educated as to the evil they went there to protect, and are telling their stories how wrong they were.

~As the war continues we see Sadaam arm children, fake surrenders, kill their own people, split families and insist all the males fight or they will lose their loved ones. The Sadaam regime do not confine themselves to military installations, no, they hide in family homes, hospitals, and schools, putting civilians in harms way.

That isn't evil enough for you?

Why is South America's cause ok with you and not this one?
Because there is an oil factor?

The president was sure going into this that there was a THREAT to the people he promised to protect. US citizens. We already had one surprise tragedy. (I wasn't so surprised myself).

IF we become the world's police and protect Somalia, South America, and so on, would that make you happier?

Two people in one marriage with ideals and a vision that they share for the future is HARD. How on earth are we suppose to marry into Iraq, when we don't share those kinds of ideals?

I wish for simplistic, but when there is evil, how can it be?
I'd sure like to know since those concerns you mentioned seem to be dear to your heart, how you would handle them? Those being, Somalia, South American oppression,Balklands, West Bank, and Gaza. Give me your wisdom regarding those that we should be helping and how you would go about it. Knowing that their leaders wouldn't care to "marry" or be "helped" into rights either.

at least the Al Kaida recruiting officers are happy now

of course they are not only fighting Iraqis. there are reports that more people enter Iraq to fight the aggressors than refugees leaving.
war on terror works great. do you really expect all the people whose children you are bombing to forgive you? there´s not even an organization needed for terror. Timothy McVeigh wasn´t a member of Al Kaida right?
and please stop that "good vs evil" nonsense. or at least listen to the pope if you are that faithful.

Thanks for your support Kona things get kinda crazy in here... but the truth is, as americans, american men should support America. This is all we have and if we lose faith in it, then it dies. And we become like iraq, or someother fascist country (with FrogBoy as our great leader JK). And i'm sorry for being argumentative with people, we are all human and all want the same thing, PEACE. As for the Americans controlling the oil, well I hope it doesn't come down to that, because then I will be very much against bush, but as for now I support America. This has been a wonderfull thread, and I am done with it (hopefully). No more for me

"God Bless the USA"

moshi: " people whose children you are bombing "

yup that is the knee-jerk, below-the-belt statement we are becoming accustomed to from you. Do you think they will forget the republican guard that were purposely machine-gunning and mortaring people who were trying to get food and water yesterday? US forces are giving their lives daily now because we don't want to resort to wholesale destruction. You spit in their faces when you say we are 'dropping bombs on children' just so your argument will get the sympathy vote. feel free to read on.


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aside

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Most of you really couldn't care less about all the victimized people in the world, the point here is the US. It is a racist, hateful phenomenon when you see people ignore countless world conflicts and dictatorships only to show up here on this board in droves when they see something about the US on the news. As long as the US isn't involved, no one cares about the millions that die all over the world.

No one comes here and rants about how China treats it's people and threatens those around it, how they have concentration camps *now* where they kill and torture people for their faith or political beliefs.

Any rant about N. Korea will just be about the US, not those suffering there.

Where is the outrage that Europe can't seem to put Milosovich on trial? They just found the body of another Serbian leader he probably had killed. HE starved, bombed, executed, raped and pillaged an entire population for years with no resistance.

Where are you when Russia pounds Chechnya? Isn't that a war? You think they don't target 'civilians'? Where is the Chechnya string on this messageboard? They gas their own people to death to get at terrorists, who they then execute on the spot with no trial. Don't ya care? aren't ya outraged?

You'd think there would be some ballsy pro-Palestinian thread from time to time. Nah, why bother, would be too much trouble to work the US into it, and heck, people might think you are anti-semitic. Better to be quiet and let wars happen, right?

Of the millions that have died in the past decade or so, how many did the US 'bomb'? How many did you guys wave the bloody shirt for that weren't supposed 'victims' of the US?

See, war isn't the problem, you guys don't mind war at all, you just want to bash the US and let the rest die silently. Don't flatter yourselves by calling yourselves doves. Face it, you are spouting hip, 'this-makes-me-cool' propaganda that has been in style since the 70's. It is fashionable to spout anti-US, anti-war conspiracy theories, but it only deserves your attention when it has 'celebrity' backing.

I don't respect you for it, and I don't think it is cool. If you are gonna be doves, be doves, but if you are you'll find it is a full time job, and *any* US conflict will only be one on your list of things to protest. There are far, far worse things going on in the world at any given time, they just don't involve people you give a crap about, if you give a crap about anyone at all.

@shu

1> The kind of arms you talk about that would sell in the black market are not ordinary guns/grenades: in fact they are the bombs/missiles type... So the access of such arms is available only to the higher authorities, hence would amount to 'official policy'. So it is always the leader selling the arms, overtly or covertly.

JTB:
I think what you state is true. Higher athorities have to know about it, in China. In Iraq that case is not so true. I was talking about WMD's in piticular chemical weapons. I am sure a soldier (from what I gather so far) could just as well as do something without permission or someone in the higher ups knowing about it. Plus, I think most countries (including this one) does stuff like that, BUT there is a mechanism about it and it has to be done through channels, bribes, possible paper trails, and other zig zagging that won't happen in Iraq.


@shu
2> If you think that the proceeds of the Chinese arms mafia end up in the official coffers, you are mistaken. The laundered money lines the pockets of a few politicians and generals.

JTB
I am not surprised by that. If the soldiers can do it, the generals can too. I would think they would be careful as to who the sell to and track it in some way but the Iraqi soldier or general would just take it and it would be gone.(at least that is my fear, it would seem that other larger more stable nations have allot of back dealings, but they have to go through allot to do it)


I have not believed many of the news stories being told, I just follow them until I see a conclusion. The part about Iraqi pride is true. I am sure allot of soldier are fighting because they are soldiers. I am also aware of who Saddam is. He would have guns at there head to fight or have hidden secret service people to kill those who give up. Also keep in mind that some of those soldiers might have done stuff at home (like rob, rape, kill) so thier fate is tied in Saddams.

I do believe that Saddam would use his own people as hostages and shields just like the people who went over to become human shields in Iraq were told to go to military posts and oil fields instead of hospitals and schools.

Keep in mind this is just not about he said she said, it is also about human phcycoilogy, sociallity and understanding the mind of the leader and the administration (that include all leaders and administrations). So it is not when the news tells me something, it is when it passes many tests and questions before I except it. Even then it will be under scrutiny.


phycology
socialiology
Critical thinking

Are civilians dieing? Yes. Is the USA have back dealing and questionable authority? Yes Other nations with deals and scams that killed people? Yes.

No country on this planet has moral authority. I am surprise we keep talking about "Well the US is this, Britian is that, China is eewwwww, France has cooties" when no country can cast the first stone.

Does that mean we do nothing?


I have found many countries with more years under UN sanctions thatn Iraq. China can blow up the US 3 times; so can Russia. Englan didn't want the colonies to be free, North Korea threatens to blow up the whole region.

So who is first?

How is this handled? I think you go back to what I mentioned before about levels of freedoms, rights, and other qualities.

What about Saudia Arabia?
Lets start there first.

I didn't say it would be fair. There has to be a statagy about it.



Anyway, I still think Bush handled it wrong and eventually more mistakes are going to be made. Eventually Saddam will not be able to hide behind civilians or mosques, school houses, or any of those things.

But will his plan work?

gotta stop these long posts...

what goes up, must come down:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29156640.htm

Ask yourself how many times you have seen stupid people in the middle east and elsewhere shooting up in the air in 'celebration'. Some anti-aircraft fire explodes at certain altitudes, a lot doesn't; especially when desperate people shoot about anything up into the air. Reporters were barred from the area until the wounded and the remains of the 'bombs' were cleaned up. I wonder why?

Sadly, many ( even some here ) will be disappointed if it ends up Iraqi surface to air missiles fell back onto baghdad after they missed planes flying over it. The point isn't the 70 or so people who died in the market there in baghdad, it is their propaganda value. If they can't be laid at the feet of the US, i'm sure they will simply be forgotten.


*****


I am anxious to hear about the 4 US soldiers they just dug up in a shallow grave. It appears now that they tortured and executed 4 of the POWs they filmed earlier. Sadly, you just can't wish humanity into these people, as some here have tried.

Baker: I listened to an interview last night with a German journalist in Baghdad who had been taken by the Iraqi authorities to the scene of the second marketplace bombing. He said the size of the hole in the pavement he was shown which was supposed to have resulted from the impact appeared too small (he said about 1 meter by 1 meter and not that much deeper) to have been caused by a cruise missle. (Presumably he had seen damage done by cruise missles and could tell the difference.) He indicated that could give rise to speculation that the damage was done by an Iraqi anti aircraft defense weapon but that the Iraqis were firm in stating that the damage was done by a US weapon. Rather interesting comments considering that journalists in Iraq have "minders" who monitor what they say so they have to be somewhat discreet in what they report.

I imagine if the Iraqi authorities had the remains of a US munition which could be identified as such they would be showing it off for the cameras.

Week 3 coming up soon. I truel want to see what happens. It is clear to me though, that the war can not be 'won' without the help of the people of Iraq. As long as they are silent then it will go on for ever.

#1083 by Xerraire - 3/29/2003 11:06:36 AM
Iplural
Regarding your post #1047

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I'd sure like to know since those concerns you mentioned seem to be dear to your heart, how you would handle them? Those being, Somalia, South American oppression,Balklands, West Bank, and Gaza. Give me your wisdom regarding those that we should be helping and how you would go about it. Knowing that their leaders wouldn't care to "marry" or be "helped" into rights either.

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not ignoring you, just wanted to let you know.. I actually am not feeling much pain so I am catching up on a few things around the house that have been put off for a while now. I will respond, but not with any wisdom, just thoughts...

In fact I will address your post line by line

To make sure it is crystal clear, my position on things such as they are. I do have a nasty habit of letting thoughts roll out as I consider them and such and it does in fact leave much to question. if not get down right indignant about.

Oh, on another thought, veiled contempt doesn't do anyone any good, and it does not wear well by anyone either...



Back to it a bit later tonight, and the 4 possible paths that I see as being open to the world and the three I see as bing open to the USA depending upon the desired goals.

IP+ I sincerely doubt that any 'veiled contempt' was intended by Xerraire in her post to you....
I know her quite well and that is just not part of her personality.

ok the veiled comment actually went over my head.
What's it supposed to mean?
I had no contempt...I saw you ask questions
I asked some back.

Hi Barb....

Jam!

I've seen all kinds of name calling here, and not one person got accused of contempt
IP doens't even know me.
I never uttered one off colored thing. I asked about the same amount of questions he did. On what grounds did I get accused of contempt, veiled, or otherwise?
I hope his next post includes an apology.

IP is usually a much nicer person than that, it must have been one of his other personalities taking control....

what a world we live in.

Oh what a world!!

I go to sleep thinking about this thread.... maybe that is too much.
I'm always thinking about this situation that we have plunged into. what is next?


I really want some answers, but it looks like I'll have to wait.

/me has decided to keep mum on advice from a friend.

Thanks for the patience you have shown. No more posts from me.

Can't stand it no more.. the people dying, crying for help for so many years, but nobody hears. Better end soon my friend, it better end soon my friend.

Can't take it no more.. the people hating, hurting their brothers they don't understand, and they can't understand. Better end soon my friend, it better end soon my friend.

'Chicago' January, 1970