I know sig101...

I've lost count of the number of times 'Rule Britannia' has been played in error at sporting events in other countries though. It always brings a smile to my face...

Incidentally, Grayhaze, do you not recognize the irony that you condemn me for being critical of the French while arguing that most Americans are just for the war out of blind patriotism? We're a bunch of mindless sheep but pointing out the fact that the French weren't even willing to fight for their own capital and that the first Axis allies Americans had to fight in Africa were French is somehow offensive to all French?

I mean really, I'm sorry but the fact is, the French barely resisted Nazi Germany. After appeasing it for a decade it then actively collaborated it. That doesn't mean that the average Frenchman didn't suffer, but the French POLITCAL culture has a very bad track record in being able to distinguish good and evil, threats from non-threats.

So I think with that in mind, I'll take the word of the US government's over France's. The US government, unlike that of France, has an actual track record of 1) recognizing threats to the world and 2) actually doing something about them.

greyhaze: if you can stand by and say that ending the suffering of Kurds and other dissenting ethic and religious groups in Iraq by force is wrong, and the same time if happened in Australia, or Belgium, or Austria you'd actually feel more inclined to aid forcefully, then yes, that is a racist or at least discriminatory ideal.

Immediate and decisive force is palatable to the world when the oppressed are Judeo-Christian, but not when they are of other races and religions. The holocaust seems to have taught us half a lesson. We had better apply that awful example to *all* peoples, or history will remember us as accomplices to it. The *hint* of ethnic cleansing should bring an immediate, un-opposable, forceful response. Instead, the world haggles over aid packages until the bodies are buried and it is time for a more glitzy war crimes tribunal.


Don't get me wrong, I don't tow the US line a vast majority of the time. I think these dictators were pampered during the cold war as pawns in a big chess match. Whether that was necessary or not is debatable, but the cold war is over, and now there is *no* excuse to tolerate it. I think the leadership in Pakistan is as bad or worse than Hussein, and I don't like my country dealing with them. I feel that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is wrong as well... with a capital *dubya*. I'm not crazy about my country supporting them any more than I am about France supporting Saddam ( which they do, with money, arms, and votes in the UN ). On the other hand the Palestinians are also ruled by a dictator, who is ruled himself by terrorists... No easy side to take there.

The cold war mess is going to be cleaned up, and I am afraid that lazy, racist nations will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the fray.

**

As for the internet, was a DoD mandate that formed the agency that ordered and funded the research. You might as well call the Eiffel Tower the "Workmen-who-built-the-Eiffel-Tower-Tower".

right now the Kurds are pretty autonom in northern Iraq (due to the no-fly zones). after the war it will be very interesting to see how the allies divide up the plunder. i saw report on Kurdistan yesterday and they prepared to fight against Turkey ...

Justify your war-lust any way you want bakerstreet. It doesn't make me any more of a racist. If anything, the fact that the US are far more likely to use military force in Iraq than they ever would in any of those other countries you mentioned makes a far better example of racism. They don't care about civilian casualties, just so long as they can get to Saddam and win another victory against the Middle East for good old Uncle Sam. I guarantee that policy would be different if it were anywhere else.

As I've already said, I'm not in any way religious. I don't look at two people of different faiths any differently. I don't let religion cloud my opinions of others. I also don't let skin colour or nationality factor into my opinions. I'm not saying I'm completely non-racist, as everyone has a little racism in them, but I don't let such things sway my opinion of needless bloodshed.

Ask yourself who the real racist is - the person who attacks another nation verbally and makes wild claims about their alliegences because that nation's government disagrees with their own, or the person who argues against war in favour of intelligent solutions which a so-called civilised world should be able to handle.

Speaking of the Kurds, how come we let the Turkish Army into the Kurdish lands in northern Iraq?

wait a second, racism?

ahhh, please explain?

I don't get it...

48 hours.........its up..........here we go

Bombs away, buh-bye Saddam and good riddance....!!!!!!!

yup i agree

The problem with the "if everyone was peaceful" argument is that it ignores reality. Its a nasty world out there and there will always be someone who thinks he knows what's best for everyone. Rmember the old saying and its still true today, "Evil thrives when good men do nothing".

"If anything, the fact that the US are far more likely to use military force in Iraq than they ever would in any of those other countries you mentioned makes a far better example of racism. "

huh? gah, the babble... We would be just as likely to come to the military aid of the French, Austrian, or Australian people if they were being treated as Saddam Hussein treats his own, and we'd be just as functionally careful to prevent civilian deaths.

War is war, people die. Dictators who murder and oppress those we care little about aren't considered great enough 'threats' to warrant civilian losses.

Did the German people collectively ask to be liberated? Nope. Had we simply confined Germany to its original borders, with weapons inspections and sanctions, how do you think dissenting ethnic and religious groups would have fared there? Granted, they were Caucasian Judeo-Christians, so Hitler warrented all the response we could muster... millions of tons of it dropped unrepentantly on a civilian population.

For once I am happy with a foreign policy decision my nation has made, and gravely saddened by what I have learned about much of the rest of the world.

it's over anyways... this battle is Trivial... because the war has has started. Things in the past have happened and can't be taken back. All free countries have a right to the respect they deserve inlcluding America(to the America Basher) and France(to the france bashers). France gave America the Statue of Liberty. And America set France free in WW2. We've traded off for many years with each other. Countries like Spain, France, Britain, and Germany are our allies (and Australia too). Lets pray for a quick ending to this, and that as many lives that can be saved are. Keep in mind that no one knows for sure what the US government knows, and all I can do as an American is have faith in my country and my society, as the French do with their country, and all men do for their country. Remember we are all brothers and sisters on this planet. I hope to see the world finally united in peace in my life time. If this never happens I will die a dissapointed man.

Thats why the world hate USA.

http://topos.ath.cx:8080/usa.txt

STOP THE WAR!!!

don't worry. it'll all be over real soon. the war i mean. against iraq i mean.

you know what Alo_Cmr i've tried to be cool with you, but you have your head so far up your butt you don't know what's going on. I apologize to the moderators. You need to calm down. These personal attacks against the US are un-called for. The US has done nothing to you, or your family. In fact that picture you linked to of that baby from Afganistan was out of line. The US doesn't kill civilians, people like Sadam Huesein do. You have a problem freedom go live in Iraq. You make inaccurate points, and stretch the truth to your favor, you are becoming a troll in this message board, and everytime someone tries to end this battle with you, you start up again. What are you trying to prove, America is evil. NO IT'S NOT. Stop Stiring the pot this arguement needs to end.

>In fact that picture you linked to of that baby from Afganistan was out of line.

was not me. READ BEFORE SPEAK

You spelled tomorrow wrong.

" Remember we are all brothers and sisters on this planet." - da_zman20

not a helpful image for me. my most enduring memory of my one sibling (sister) is her taking careful aim and shooting me with a bow and arrow, and the ensuing fun getting it cut out of my leg at the doctors office.
No, i was being a perfect gentleman on the day of this heinous onslaught.

whatever... and the world doesn't hate the USA, we are at a disagreement with our allies... they agree that there is a problem, they just believe it should be handled it differently. No offense but remember we are all human. It's not about insults and arguing... i've said from the begining it's about what really needs to be done, my opinion may differ from yours, just like France, and America, but in the end we both want the same thing, peace. Now I apologize if I have seemed out of line with you. America is not evil, and the French are not dumb. America wants the Nuclear Weapons gone, and So does France, but France wants it done peacefully, and America believes peace can't happen... who's right??? no one is... or everyone is... Either way does it matter

da_zman20...remember yet again...personal attacks against fellow members is not tolerated.

Attack logical opinion, not the opinion's holder.

Thanks.

civilian casualties? People like Hussein set up anti-aircraft artillery guns on the roofs of hospitals and orphanages, and store their weapons under churches, temples, and in people's basements whenever possible. Saw the same cowardly "kee kwai" in the Vietnam war. if you want to save civilian lives, tell the petty tyrants like Hussein to stop using their women and orphans as body shields.

Thaks for your apologizes and if someone feels insulted by my person I apologize too.
But read the document please.
'til friday GOOD BYE.

sounds like my sister bangkokboy... only she never put a bow through me... ouch... but yeah you have a point. My brother broke many a hard objects over my head though, and I drop kicked him trough a window... .... ahhh the good old days... and you know you did something to her... at least im sure that's what your mom said...