Really?? I am really interested in Math... especailly when it goes into theory. Not interested enough to find out anything but interested non the less.

Maybe I should say a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.... as long as it is in the same state of matter.


Duid you know when gases get super heated it turns into plasma? Wouldn't that be the 4th state of matter?

paxx - when i was 8 years old ( many decades ago), i saw a black woman who came to my grandmother's house referred to go around and come in the back door. when queried, all of the adults i asked assured me that this was fine, i was too young to understand, nothing was amiss. a small voice inside somewhere told me that they were wrong, even though they obviously believed what they were saying, and did not normally lie to me. i knew better than to challenge them aloud, but remained absolutely convinced that they ( my entire family! ) had to be mistaken. there is such a thing as true conscience, but you'll only hear it if you actively seek to. you can argue the existence and definition of good/evil all day. i do believe that a conscience exists, and more importantly that it's not always just a mirror of what family/society told you. the first time my dad saw me walking outside with a cigarette lighter, he didn't feel the necessity to tell me not to burn down the neighbor's house.

Bangkokboy: when I was a kid, I wanted to have a lion as a pet.

In your example, your child opinion happened to be correct with today's standards. But I'm sure there were other things you thought were right, that actually weren't - here and now, that is. Maybe you thought that drawing on the wall was cool? Maybe you didn't understand what was wrong with steeling a chocolate bar from the store? Maybe you thought it was OK to punch your friend in the face?
Anyway, growing up is about shaping your beliefs. You develop your own, then you get influenced (tought) by your family and friends. And TV and books.

Carl Joung, a 19th century phychanalyst, said that everybody is both good and bad. That you learn to alienate the evil in you, but that it's always there. Sometimes it comes out in your dreamsn, sometimes in comes out when you do drugs or alcohol. Sometimes people just crack up and let all the evil in them out. We call them psycopaths or nuts. But the fact is, what an evil person is, or a psychopath, is simply that he#she doesn't behave the way he is expected to behave in his society/world. That's it.

Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that everything goes. That there is no such thing as good or bad. Of course there is such a thing. But what I am saying is that very concept changes in time and in places.

Some people believe that eating pork is evil. Some people believe that dancing is an act of the Devil. Some people believe that novels corrupt your mind and is also evil for that. Some people believe that women showing their face in public is evil.

What is REALLY good or bad? the answer is simple: what YOU beleive is. But understand and respect that the guy on the other of the globe may also think that something else is good or evil. And that too is REAL.

Correction, it's Carl Jung, and although he wa born in the 19th century, he lived mostly in the early 20th century.

Exactly what I wanted to say Paxx. But I couldn't have put it so well.

Jung good read, Fraud is ok.. grates on my nerves though with his drunking cocaine induced enlightenment and insight into the fact that everyone want to boff their mum, and if feamle wants to trade equipment if only for a few moments, ingrate...

paxx, you and others might like to take a look at:

Social Cognition; making sense of people
by: Ziva Kunda from MIT...

exceprt:
"
This book is divided into three sections.

The first focuses on "basic processes" in social cognition. It reviews research on concept representation, rules of inference, memory, *hot* cognition, and atuomatic processing.

The second section focuses on three basic topics in social cognition: group sterotypes, knowledge of other individuals, and the self.

The final chapter revisits many of the issues discussed in the book from a cross-cultrual perspective.
"

It is actually 558 pages of small type and a total of 11 chapters between the three choice of topics breaking the whole process down in each..

anyway...

very good read, so is the Dali Lamas "A new Ethic for a New Millinium"

paxx - i agree for the most part with what you're saying, and i'm not debating any points. i do think that what we're taught mixes with what we are by nature, and what we're taught doesn't always win. i guess i'd like to believe that when we evaluate alternatives seeking the best, what others told us is not the only tool in the toolbox.

Carl Joung, a 19th century phychanalyst, said that everybody is both good and bad. That you learn to alienate the evil in you, but that it's always there. Sometimes it comes out in your dreamsn, sometimes in comes out when you do drugs or alcohol. Sometimes people just crack up and let all the evil in them out. We call them psycopaths or nuts. But the fact is, what an evil person is, or a psychopath, is simply that he#she doesn't behave the way he is expected to behave in his society/world. That's it.



Partly this is what I mean when I think Good has an ability to seek itself out or ultimatly over come becuase it is a balance between right and wrong and doing right. Evil only has on side and it is to do bad. Something or someone can have more of one than the other.

In the end I think Good and Evil is part of the universal element. We do not fully understand it and in the misunderstanding of these 2 elements we place our own feeling as to what is Good or evil. It doesn't mean we are right or wrong. It can be cultural or it can be something inside that says this is wrong. There were slave who thought they should be slaves and that is it. They might even fight against those who would rather be free. (This has happened by the way for many reasons.)


I think as humans we are looking for a way to understand what Good and evil is. History is basically our journey as to how we presive those elements.


But the bottom line will always be that something is fundumentally wrong and something is fundementally right. It is up to us to see it and there are many possibilities that we will be wrong.

oh and good read paxx. And I also understand what you mean IPlural. I think some acts of a child are really just acts of a child (painting on a wall, taking a piece of yummy chocolate). One time I iron the floor to see if I could get the rinkals out of it. I also did it to see what would happen. After I did it I know I was wrong and in trouble. ALLOT of trouble.

While both paxx and Iplural can make very good arguing point to either side for my action as a child but fundimentally my actions mostly had to do with the want of knowledge and to see what would happen. Was it bad to iron the floor? Was it good?

I think the key here is knowledge and the want of it or the lack of it that can turn something into a bad or good thing. Accumulated knowledge makes it some what easier to determain what is Good or Evil.
I do belive that ultimately totally knowledge will lean very much on the side of Good.

But what is fundamentally wrong?

If I tell you that I don't believe in God. If I tell you that I think that Men invented God out of insecurity, to answer questions that had no answer and being afraid of facing the truth.
If I tell you that there is no heaven, nor hell.

Will you call me evil because of my beliefs? Some people would.
A lot of people did. Hell of a lot of heretics got burned for being evil because they didn't share the same beliefs.


But yeah, up to a point I almost agree. There are some things that are absolutely wrong, or evil. And all of those things have to do with mistreating, hurting, killing another humain being. Where the difference lies is in the interpretation of what mistreating human beings is.

Concretely: The US are about to drop thousands of bombs on civilian Iraqees. President Bush says that Good is on his side, and Saddam is Evil. On the other hand, a lot of people are saying that the Evil that we're about to discover is not in Iraq. I heard some people actually say that Bush was the anti-Christ.

No, Evil si not so easy to judge.

It isn't easy to judge at all. Bush can say he is on the side of Good. There are some who say he is misguided on how to achieve that "Good".

I am sure (as much as a human can be sure of anything) that he believe he is right. I am sure that he is going about it in the wrong way, but that is my belief.

I am also sure that if he is wrong, then thier will be allot of people in this world who will be able to fix it.


Its funny because the main reason why I thought of this thread was because of the ongoing attitudes of current events and the obsesive use of the word Evil. I never heard it so much. Of course the other side says they are on the side of Good. Any body, including me, who feels they are totally right about something says that they are on the good side as some sign of legitimacy.


I guess also, what I am really wondering is that whether someone belives in the divine or not, is it possible that Good and Evil plays a role in our lives and deaths. Is it faith or an acuualt element of the Universe? If someone says nothing happens after you die I could say "Yes, you body decomposes. Many parts of you are recyled by many organizims; back into the Earth. As a part of the cycle of the Universe of which is basically difined as Good and Evil



I was watching this sci-fi and there was this "enememy" that used human bodies as energy for it to servive. It was found out later thatit has been doing it for centuries going from planet to planet in many dimentions. It could be killed or posisoned but it would take allot of effert and seemingly most sociaties found out to late what it was that could stop them. We humanbings called it Evil for all the distruction and fear it caused.

All it is was a creature with obvious inteligence who needed food to survive. It tended to be wasteful but finding ways to be effiecnt. Does this creature sound familiar? I guess you would say it is on the top of the food chain...


My point exactly paxx, Good and Evil is not very easy to judge. I think as humans we don't do to well at it. Lets hope our leaders do better and lets really hope there is someone to fix it if they are wrong.

paxx

I don't know about being considered being evil saying there isn't a God, but I bet SHE would be a bit perplexed and left tuging on her Long Black Native American Hopi hair, hearing you say that

oohhh Iplural is in trouble for saying she has black native american hair!! I find you guilty. I am very sure of it and since I am on the side of good, you must be very bad.

/me hurls missiles at Iplural

Besides God is obviously a woman with blonde straight hair.(Who wears a toga and sandles)

Well, joetheblow: don't they say God is perfect? Well then she's gotta be like you described.

Depends on your interpretation of perfection...

I've been reading a lot of Moorcock (Michael Moorcock) lately.. He seems to have an idea, that I believe in. There is no Good or Evil, there is just Law and Chaos. And the Lords of both sides play with human fates and use all methods at their disposal to gain control oer the dimensions...

Might be fantasy, but atleast gives a better explanation, I think.

I think I am going to complicate matters further! Honestly, my intention isn't to be difficult. Can I bring in the question of "fate" or "destiny"? If we do good or evil, are we destined to do just that: good or evil? I think that we can choose either way. If we are able to choose, perhaps we may not be able to change the world, but couldn't we make a difference? I don't think that events occur at a random pace. Like the theory of evolution. If we are in state of evolving, shouldn't we evolve into something, something better?

you can hypothesize a perfect God delineating a perfect set of standards - and if you hand them to imperfect beings to carry out, the perfection inherent in the standards is warped, twisted, and defiled instantly. imperfection cannot implement perfection. but that doesn't mean that i can't do better.

well i think destiny exists but not in the form most people know it to be. I think there are only a finite set of choices that you can have in any given moment. While there is a possible million billion options, in a sence it is destiny that you can not go outside of those choices.

There are so many options that there is a 'illusion' of freedom but the freedom is cantained in the options (million billion) you have ate that moment.

Inate objects can be used either way, Good of evil, it is mosty up to the user. She can believe the intentions are good or bad for that matter, but in the end it is what it is. The question really is can we as humans figure out if it is Good or evil. I think we can with practice but we will most likely never be perfect at it.



Lets think about the statement that many leaders as well as normal citezens say:

God is on my side.
Really? How do you know this?
Wouldn't God be on the side of all of his children? And if so then is it possible, while she disagrees with many acrions, also be on the side of your enemy?

What odes good being on your 'side' mean?

What does good being on your 'side' mean?

'Good' and 'Evil' aren't so easy to define: like 'Black' and 'White'. There are many grey areas in between.

Many of our actions are dictated by our self-preservation instincts... Are such thoughts or action 'Evil'?

If a man feels that he is endangered by the mere presence of another man, is his actions to get rid of him 'Evil'? If they aren't, doesn't the other man have the same rights too?

mickboni: evolution doesn't mean "better" or "gooder". According to the theory, it only means that the fittest survive. The fittest can very well be worse or more evil.

Maybe.. But shouldn't we, as humans, behave better than animals? Or have we all decided to resign to our 'fate'?

ok, I will bite, we are all EVIL.
Its funny, we are the only speecie that takes care of their own extingsion.