, considered "the best in the world" by whom? Take a poll of Americans who are familiar with medical treatment in Canada and the typical American will stay here for medical coverage.

Canada's medical system is good in the sense that it is "free". But it's not really free, you pay for it in much higher taxes.

Most Americans have health insurance and get it as part of their jobs. We have 2 Canadians who work here and we've discussed health care a great deal and what Canadians have to go through to get any kind of complex treatment versus the very streamlined (but more expensive) health care here in the states makes me glad of our system.

Yea, at the moment I pay $243 a month for health insurance. But I don't work yet either.

But I got to say. They paid alot of my bills. Paid my whole $18,000 hospital bill at Pittsburgh. And all my meds which I have a $10 co-pay. And a bunch of other hospital and doc bills. So, I got to say mine is pretty good for what it is. I just wish I was only paying what I was when I was working.

Just reading through these posts really brings home why non-skinning debates here don't work out very well.

I must confess I spend a lot of time on debate sites and Usenet. So I can see the difference between someone who knows what they are talking about and someone who just wants to blurt out an ill-informed opinion.

If you want to convince someone of your position, you need to start by using facts. Prejudices are not facts.

Saying things like "The US health care system is broke" or "The system doesn't work for most" is just silly. Anyone who's even remotely familiar with the statistics or just familiar with the system as a whole knows that it works and works very well for most people.

Even the demonized HMOs work pretty well for most people.

The "problem" of the US system is quite complicated. For one thing, American culture is so tied to believing that technology can solve anything that Americans will "try anything" to extend their lives regardless of the expense. Combine that attitude with out of control lawsuits and you have a "System" in which the costs are out of control.

An American is the one who will go to the doctor with the flu and demand anti-biotics. If the doctor refuses, explains that the flu is a virus and anti-biotics wouldn't do any good, the American is much more likely to threaten a lawsuit than say a Canadian or German.

That is why health care is so expensive in the US. But for most people, most meaning 70%+ of the population, it is "free" in that it is provided by their employer. Another 20% has to pay for their insurance themselves and it leaves just over 10% left without any insurance.

Now if you're in that 70%, the system works pretty good. I go to the doctor, it costs me $10. If I need a perscription, it costs another $5. That's not very much.

And because there is so much private competition in health care, they are always finding ways to try to lower costs. Sometimes that has bad results but overall it had a good result. By contrast, if the government wre in control of it, the same people who pay $700 for wrench would be the ones paying for medical coverage. The government has a very poor record of controlling costs on anything and health care would be no different.

I would prefer to keep my taxes lower and be responsible for my own health care (either by purchasing it myself or getting it via my employer). Canadians chose to have the government be in charge of it. That's fine. That's their right. But it's not something I would like.

We just don't have the same values, that's all.
I believe social services should be provided by the comunity for the community. I think the private sector has no business messing up with people's health. I think that my healt is not something that should be a way of getting rich. We're not talking about a car or a computer here, but about something vitally essential to every humain being. Nobody, ever, should have to worry about if he ca affort being sick.

No, Brad, it's not just about facts. It's about values. I value health before money. Certain things just can't be applied to capitalism. Call me a communist if you want.

It is broke...

FERRET is a tool developed and supported by the U.S. Bureau of the Census in collaboration with the Bureau of Labor Statistics and other statistical agencies. The beta release of the Java version of this tool is now available.

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http://ferret.bls.census.gov/cgi-bin/ferret?&sel_sponsor=NCHS

CDC Data Warehouse

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oops

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/datawh/ferret/ferret.htm

Paxx - I agree, it is about value.

But facts are still facts. When someone says that the US system doesn't work for most people, that is not a fact, that is an opinion that is demonstratably false.

But you're right, I don't see it the obligation of a citizen to be coerced into paying for the health care of strangers. If someone wants to give to a health care charity or something I would strongly encourage that. Ironcially, the peopel who want socialized medicine are the first ones to decry religious based charities. Even though statistically, most charity based health care are provided by religious institutions. (though I would argue that some people's faith in the government approaches that of a religion ).

I believe in the right of individuals to determine how best to spend their earned income. I think individuals are more efficient than governments. And I don't believe health care is an entitlement to be provided by a federal government. If state governments wanted to look into that, then that's a different thing. Then the people of that state can determine what to spend their money on.

The way I see such things as a 'Health System'...if it fails just ONE member of your society, it is a failure.

If one person dies through mis-management of social responsibility to its community then it has failed that person TERMINALLY and UTTERLY.

By their very size and complexity, any and all 'Health Systems' are a failure.

There is NO SUCH THING as a 'good Health System', only a 'less bad' one.

It is not all about facts and statistics, it's ONLY about people....life and death.

There are lies....
Damn lies....
And statistics....

Jafo, I could type here and quote research findings left and right, I could post statistical results until my fingers bleed. It wouldn't make a difference.

The system is broken, otherwise our fearless leader wouldn't be on TV talking about how he was going to fix it.

All it takes is a web search and you can find more proof of exactly how broken it is than anyone cares to read.

OSHA, FDA, BPH, HHS, and untold number of hearings of House subcommittees, Medical Journals, News reports, Publication Reports, Books, and the list go's on.
The information is there for anyone who wants to look at it.

it's broke, been broke, is going to only get worse until it is thrown out or dies of neglecting the issues which are pushed aside in the shuffle for votes, money and other forms of personal gain.

here is a good example of our fantastic Health system at work.

The President comes out to speak to Doctors upset with Malpractice Insurance costs, so much so they have gone on strike, Doctors mind you.
President Bush is going to push Tort reform through so the Doctors are not treated bad, yada ya ya...

One day later a woman has both breasts removed because her cancer is so advanced it is the only thing that can save her life. She has gone from the day they found the cancer, through all treatments, a number of specialists, doctors one and all, then the final bad news, they couldn't cure her, she was going to die with the double mastectomy. Well all went good and she came out of the operating room expecting to fully recover and live a normal life.

Well, as is done in almost all instances of tumor removal they too the breast material to examine it and record what they found. What they found was, she did not have Cancer, she never had cancer and from the looks of thing she probably will never have cancer. One thing is for sure, she never will have breast cancer, that is 100% positive.

Yup, got to admit, our Health system is the best one going....

anyway, as I said before...

its broke

hmmmm.... I think having this discussions on a skin site is GREAT!!!

I like skinning as much as the other joe, but I also think that we can pull our heads out of the art world or computer world and talk about what is going on.

It is also a way to share ideas so people who are missinformed can be informed and informed people can learn about things over looked.


I also like cheese and the color pink; but not the color purple. I do not like purple.


And thos wireless, laser mouses, has anybody noticed that if you put it on your lap it starts to hurt your leg? I was on a MAC mouse and the beam from the mouse made me feel funny.

yeah, ok, back to my new found obsession skinning, or I should say learning it!

I know, in time Grasshopper

no more politics, war, from me, even in limited fashion..

Always a good plan, IPlural. There's two things always dangerous to talk about, offline or online (and seemingly mroe-so online)

Religion and politics.

"If anyone is interested, the Bible predicts the downfall of the USA." -- Delicious

"Yea, the Bible goes through all the Nations. And I think we were one of the first couple to go." --Weaksid

I'd like to see were you two are getting your information from.

oh there's one other one, when sig-other pregnant "Am I fat" is to be avoided at all costs!!

Or the famous Q...'are you still beating your wife?'...

So the war discussion is about health care and the state of the union post is about war. .

"So the war discussion is about health care and the state of the union post is about war."

Isn't that how these always go?

Hmm, and all that time I thought "war" and "health care" were synonyms. Where's that dictionary?

I don't get it... why does the mouse burn my lap? Isn;t it suppossed to be safe?

I am going to take a look at it while it is on a see if my eyeball will burn too...

I'll take a cream donut please.....