Re: Bot Lane Taking A Camp

I believe the Support level 2 thing is a cheese strat for Leona only.  Haven't heard of people doing it with other champions but who knows.  Leona is one of the best at doing camps.  Leona has an extremely strong level 2 and a horrible level 1.  A level 2 Thresh walking into lane isn't nearly as scary since you can actually hide behind minions and stuff.  Might work though.  But keep in mind your ADC will be the last of the four botlaners to hit level 2 so it has to be worth it.

Your guys problem was the champion choices of Ezreal and Jinx.  

I've won a couple lanes playing Jinx when chumps do Krugs and then walk into lane expecting an advantage cause that's what the pros do.  I've been pushing fast and have long range AOE attacks and a larger creep wave that I'm happy to use on people who walk into lane not having full health and are level 1 just like me and my Support.  The other two can't all in us when they don't have 100% health until they hit level 2 right?  So you just work them over and keep them from level 2 or hurt them so bad it doesn't matter.  It's a lot of fun!

And people are extra low health when they try and do it with Ezreal and a Not Leona Support.  Corki, AOE Q and true damage passive.  Nice!  Graves, AOE Q and durability passive.  Nice!  Ezreal... yeah.

So if you guys wanna do a camp with an Okay Support for it and a Bad ADC for it, I don't think it's going to be fun.  I mean, if you're facing a Vayne who can't push fast or punish you hard for it then it should be fine.  But believe me, that Jinx was drooling when you guys came to lane.  

Try and keep in mind that even if you don't get level 2 first you can still have advantages from the jungle camp.  Your level 2 minions are still alive and in the bank so to speak and the lane is pushing toward your tower.  Eventually you're going to get a level advantage.  Well, as long as you guys don't group up next to each other while Jinx rockets yah.  

I think the problem with my elise support is that I did not roam to top lane.  Anyway, sorry about inflicting that on you fellas.  Was quite awful.

I saw a new program on meteos stream I'm probably going to try out.  Built in instant replay (you get an overlayed pop up in game that you can click on to see replays).  

Looks like I need to reinstall my PBE - nov 3rd is slated as preseason release 1.  

hurm... I'm finding I'm quickly reverting to my norm even though I'm trying to add some thresh tricks to my bag.  Which is ok - I already feel pretty competent, but I'm a little bummed on how quick I'm back to default mode support.  On the bright side, elise games aside, its default try hard.

Played a ranked to get my elo decay sorted.  We won, but its was kind of excruciating.  Enemy team adc was god awful, but my team was equally awful just handing over gained leads for no reason.  My adc was pretty close to horrific - could not comprehend a twitch turning invisible.  And we had a yasuo that shit on the enemy team.  I end with an 11 k/d/a and have a pretty solid game, but it was just a bunch of dumbos on either side.  Felt like a waste of time.  Still, elo decay done, so cool.

I  installed that instant replay thing i mentioned-  pretty easy to install. Works fine.  Kind of something I doubt I'll use to much... neat anyway

If your goal was to try and use something worse than my infamous Urgot Support, you failed.  Blocking Blitz pulls with spiderlings was actually something useful so I'd put it a tier above Urgot at least.

Seriously though, I don't think it's that bad a concept.  In spider form she's fast and has really great ganks as a jungler, so roaming with Ignite would be insane!  Of course Rawr talked you into Exhaust so that was unfortunate.  Not sure if you guys did a camp first or leashed but she's probably amazing at doing one quickly and safely.

If you ever want to give it another try while I'm ADC, I don't mind a bit.  I'd actually much prefer it over a non-Morgana GP/10 rune Support to be honest.

I'm in the process of moving so I won't be playing for a while.  See you guys in a couple weeks!  Ranked decay for Plat is like 28 days right?  

Meh, the reason you lost the Elise game was lost was because the Blitz hook was GODLIKE at canceling Trist jumps

oh - so i found a diamond 3 fella that coached me for a few games tonight.  Put me right in my place.  I feel like most games I'm playing with goombas.  These games swapped me to the goomba role.  I did one where I supported him as thresh and another where I played adc and he showed me how he controls the lane.

His control level was MUCH more solid/consistent than mine - like I was a schleb adc and this guy got me to 2 kills like cake.  All by pressuring.  Anyway, I learned a bit.  He STRESSED that being a good thresh is NOT about landing the hooks.  Those are swell, but the control really, really comes from his flay and how u utilize that.

This is changing my build out.  I had been rushing targons for the added money.  Now, I think I'm going to leave that to very specific situations or if I'm with a kali.  This frees up some gold for either SS or boots rush.  One thing he was super good at - noting anytime the jungler was top/mid and then warding the enemy jungle anytime it was ok to do so.  We had eyes on the enemy jungler as he moved through the jungle really consistently.  

Anyway, it was cool to feel like I was really the weakest link.  I mean, not a fun feeling, but feeling outclassed is kind of what I need to kick me in the ass.  If I'm getting wrecked by higher level play, well, I know I have to work harder.

el brando is out

Curious as to why Zac jungle fell out of the meta, just decided to play him on a whim last night and he's pretty solid. He will probably be one of my go-tos when I get pigeon holed to jungle in ranked games and what not. I usually prefer it the least to support but it's pretty enjoyable.

I actually don't remember why I stopped playing zac jungle.  I was pretty pumped about him for quite a bit then he fell out of favor with me anyway.  Pre-last buff, he had the most chase potential at least with decent cc.  Also always feels pretty easy to hit his ranged cc (to me anyway).  I think for me anyway, I just got out of playing jungle for a bit and when I got back in, elise was a beast.  

Going to continue my monologue/experience re: playing with much higher elo folks as I got a few more games in.

Anyway, I'll start with what I'm up to, why, and how I got here.  So, here's the deal - each of us are in our own little bucket in league.  Games get harder or easier based on who we play with.  Those of us that play together have a good feeling of what those games are going to generally be like.  But - knowing where you fit in that little bucket means nothing with regards to where you fit into the entire league bucket.

How do I stack up against a challenger player, however, is completely out of my frame of mind (and likely yours). I don't play with challengers and at best, low diamond which doesn't really tell me a heck of a lot of how I compare.  Now, its not an arrogant sort of place I'm coming from (eg I'd totally kick this challengers arse); instead, its me wondering how specifically I'd lose to a challenger.  What are they doing that I'm not doing, etc.  That is useful - a heck of a lot more useful than feeling like i'm a pretty great support in my little bucket.  

Anyway, so, I make it a goal to try to get into a few games with folks SIGNIFICANTLY higher in elo than me (and where, ideally, I'm the only person on my team skewing the stats).  Now, when I play a game with PDT (I've played a few with just him and me recently), I know that its going to be a pain train of goons.  Meaning I will spend more than a few moments each game wondering wtf someone is doing... why... WHY.  That is roughly the divide I expect anyone would feel/experience in playing with me from a much higher elo (eg I am become PDT).  This means that playing with me should become excruciating to much higher elo.  Which translates into it not being as much fun to play with me as I'm a hindrance more than a help.

SO - there's my parameters - find someone much higher elo (Diamond 3 minimum). Do my best to make sure they can tolerate me (eg lets do the absolute best pacov can do every game even if its smeh in comparison) and learn as much as I can while making as little of a nuisance as possible. 

If you want to know what the differences between solo queue games and playing with you guys is like hit me up on Skype some time. I am at work at writing lenghty messages via smart phone is difficult. I can tell each of you what I think your problems are (I am not perfect by any means but I think I could help many of you understand your problem areas). 

Brand skin review: 

Got a game in with him. Really love the splash art. Dance and back animation are pretty sweet. No new voice over but new ability sounds that I dig. Auto attack is pretty. pillar is easily the neatest looking ability. Definitely worth a buy if you like brand. Probably of equal quality with zombie brand minus the lack of new voice over.

OK - so, step 1 - find someone that fits that criteria.  I'm focused on support nuances only (eg don't teach me how to adc better, teach me how to be a better support), so hopefully I can find someone that is an excellent support or adc.  After doing some research, I came across this reddit site:

A place to meet people who play League of Legends - Reddit

After searching for a bit, I literally found someone saying they were diamond elo and wanted to work with a Plat or > support to help them get better at support.  I mean... the post literally said exactly what I was looking for.  So, I add the guy and he comes online later.  I hit him up and tell him I saw his post, I feel like I'm a decent support but I'd like to improve.  We hop on voice chat an immediately get into a game with him as draven, me as thresh.

Now, I'm setting myself up at a slightly bigger disadvantage as I'm playing a little bit off.  By that, I mean I'm a little nervous and not as comfortable due to playing with someone brand new and the big disparity in elo (guy peaked high diamond 1 and is currently diamond 3).  So, I'm a little sheepish and not as decisive as I'd normally be in game 1.  

Anyway, so the first thing he calls out is me having very weak lane control. He says its not about landing hooks as thresh - forget that crap.  Its about presence and your flay.  This guy seems to process the map information at a much higher rate than I typically do.  1 slight mistep from the enemy adc or support and he already has in mind exactly what he and I should have done (eg guy was just slightly too far head, I should be wailing on him and setting up a flay while he lands 2-3 AAs).  It seems like really basic stuff, but he's seeing all of these very specific things for both roles.  Me, I know if I set something up and my adc is a crap and gets no damage in, etc.  This guy is on top of that, very briefly saw the enemy jungle at mid and is thinking about that, etc.  Its just all at a higher speed that I usually function at.  He's got an incredible understanding of wave management (I have a decent understanding - he is managed precisely down to the creep level) and is easily the most mechanically talented player I've played with.  

Think of all of your general league knowledge for whatever role.  Now, assume there are about 10 things you should be doing to probably do not.  This guy seems to know those 10 things and you can pick up on them.  But of course, its crap I didn't know I wasn't doing, so it wouldn't even occur to me.  That's kind of what the whole experience has been.  Good pacov support in my bucket is bad pacov support at higher bucket.  

I'm trying to track all the things I'm learning.  Alot of the focus is moreso on getting good wards in the enemy jungle more frequently and swinging the lane control wisely (not via hooks - you still go for hooks ofc).  My need to upgrade relic shield has dropped off almost entirely as it can disrupt my adcs flow/control of the creep management - I instead look for a boots 2 rush or just stick with SS on 1st back.  My ballsy all in plays that would work in my bucket don't pan out as well (we generally got kills based on my adcs high skill cap or me setting up added damage with a flay/hook combo).  I'm sticking with a more common rune page including AD reds (not my adcs suggestion, just what I swapped to running).  

So, more about the guy I've been playing with. As I mentioned, he peaked around high diamond 1 and plopped down to Diamond 3 after a bit.  Not sure if he's playing a bunch of ranked lately.  The guys very direct and blunt.  Which is good as long as you don't get pissy and treat things like they should be - a learning opportunity.  He's a pretty arrogant guy (guess he's a master tier starcraft II player as well).  He seems to get kind of trolly and lean towards troll, but he's not a dick - eg he knows I'm trying to get better and learn, so he doesn't really berate poor play on my part, but he definitely calls it out.  He described the difference between diamond 3 and diamond 1 as much a difference between bronze and lower diamond.  More or less made it sound like there's a whole new world from d3-d1.  He queues up with some challenger players on a regular basis and seems to be able to hold his own for the most part.  Says he can play pretty much any champ (seems very adept), but is an adc main.  Interestingly or maybe not, his draven didn't really wow me.  He was perfectly competent and played well, but only a few flashy plays here and there.  Mostly just AMAZINGLY good cs and traded pretty close to perfectly well.

I'm curious as to what feedback/insight you might have, mr cow.  I think my general familiarity with you makes me think you might not be able to provide as much insight, but that's probably just silly on my part.  I'll hit you up sometime then - I'm really only interested in bumping up my support skill level and perhaps improving things I can do for mid/top lane as support at various points.  

So, just jotting down a list of things that I'm working to improve based on recent experience.  All points tailored specifically to thresh as support (and to limit other possibilities to keep from going insanely broad).

• Decision making on when to take gromp or doubles when its possible + how to play the lane if we do that that experience.  Currently, I'm undecided/need more info atm.  I need to determine what adcs can take it quickly enough to justify taking it, who takes the xp, and then determine how the lane should be played (eg aggressive to hit 2 or passive based on champ).  Could come to this conclusion probably based solely on what adc is with me - but difficult to get enough data/focus on this for long as most jungles at this elo don't allow you to take.  One other thought -if its available, it might always be smart to at least take the little krug for a tiny bit of gold/xp.  Hurts the jungler a wee bit, but no negative impact to bot lane in taking at all)
• Level 1-2 game play - I think this is generally the weakest part of my thresh play (which is a pisser because I'm actually pretty good at getting some beast level 2 play with a semi aggressive adc in my bucket).  I'm really undecided on the best way to work the lane and its all somewhat situational.  I've learned that I'm going to NOT focus primarily on getting a last hit in on a creep with my passive charged up and instead focus on either damaging creeps to push for a level 2 advantage (this goes to shit based on how my adc responds).  Or do that a little but focus hard on chunking the enemy support or adc while my adc applies pressure.  Anytime I was able to land a flay just from aa/flay (my usual combo), my d3 buddy was able to land about 2 AAs without losing a trade.  I think I need to figure out how to tailor my aggression levels to my lanemate.  The d3 guy adapted to me rather than the other way around.  He also played thresh 1 game with me ADC and he showed me how to run the lane - he was very aggro and caused a lot of chaos/drew attention.  zero passivity and he seemed to have a VERY low interest in getting relic stacks
• Summoner spell timing - i need to get MUCH better at this.  At the very least I need to be CONSISTENTLY typing out jinx f, etc.  Best if I can type jinx f 9:18.  That's a min.  I also need to be timing the other summoner.  And I need to do this for not only my lane, but other lanes when I see things if they aren't calling.
• Ward timing - if I see a ward get dropped, I need to call the location and toss a time stamp.  That probably does jack for us in my bucket, but occassionally I'll have a jungler or mid that will do something with that info
• Consistently get wards deep in bot lane (eg blocking bot lanes escape) to allow for TP ops.  Its the tardo tp meta, provide beast tp locations AND mention they are in place to top lane
• DEEP Jungle wards - I need to TRACK the enemy jungler and drop wards giving vision of him.  A pink is swell provide I can drop it early, but greens will do.  I NEED to stay on top of this throughout the game.  If the jungler is on the bot side of the map, I should know exactly or at least roughly where he is.
• Call out jungle location - in some instances at this elo bucket, folks just don't pay enough attention to the mini map.  Its ok to call out jung top, jung mid, etc.  Kind of annoying to some folks I'd guess, but that info also helps if your jungler is a dumbo.  His brain might kick into gear and either counter jungle or make a gank somewhere else based on that call out.  
• ASSUME people have no idea what a mini map is - provide useful pings as you spot out enemies, etc.  
• Call out pink locations if you spot them on the mini map (pink + ping)
• Roaming pink - guys my elo bucket often suck at pinking mid or top.  I can help if I mobo rush early.
• Not being a cheap bastard on pinks - I'm a support so I'm already kind of broke, but I need to be willing to WASTE pinks if there's potential (eg if there's a rango and I think a fight is about to break out, slap that sucker down preemptively (eg before rango fear indicator pops up)
• Roaming ganks - need to determine when is the best to do this on thresh.  I'm already keyed into the proper time frame and get when its ok to roam without ruining my adc (getting better at it anyway), but I need to pay more attention to the lanes before I even head that way - AND I should let the lane know I'm coming.  
• Frequently use f keys to check on lanes 

When tanks were popular, Sej and Gragas were just better.  Now Sej sucks, but tanks aren't so popular.  Plus, playing pure tanks in solo queue is kind of frustrating since its so team dependent.  Nobody wants to play tanks in solo queue unless they are really really strong or really really easy (AMUMU).

good point - I started playing some graggy again for a minute with it appearing so much in worlds... but in solo queue... its rough without a team.  At least elise has some solo carry potential.  2nded 

Been doing really well with not tilting the past few weeks - been working on that.  I can confirm that PDT still has the same old tendencies.  Mr Boaz has been around a bit more, which I dig as he's a nice guy.  I have no idea what's going on with my mmr atm - feel like most games are just silly mismatches with really awful play.  I had a kindred adc one game (yay... kindred adc) that could not get through her head that she was losing lane.  No matter what, she'd just go all in again and again.  Don't think was trolling... just... not smart.  

I think there's a small lesson for me anyway.  If I'm not feeling challenged (challenged as in not challenged by my teammates incompetence, but instead by good players on the opposing team), that's where I start in with all my crazy strategies and gold generation, and super ballsy all in plays.  And then that mindset would trail over to games with you fellas.  Boredom is the root of all my of my research/theory crafting/how to make support more relevant via gold generation/itemization.  BUT - when I'm super keyed into improving and working on myself (instead of consigned to playing against mediocrity), I could care less about GDM, etc.  I don't even care about rushing the 2nd tier gold item - I've got other crap to do.  

Yeah that's true. In hindsight there are a lot less repercussions from a misplay on Gragas, Sej, etc. once you leap into the enemy team you kind of have to commit since you have no escape, so there's a lot of decision making if you were to play Zac. From the past couple of ranked games I feel as though he's easily one of the top tier junglers again, even if it is almost essentially still the Devourer meta. I've been building full tank and messed around with runes a bit. As it turns out I can carry from the jungle with it as the base damage values are decent enough. With a team that understands to follow up with my ganks or engages it's probably some of the most fun jungling games I've had ever. +1 for Zac.

In lieu of the whole really easy junglers, I guess yeah if you can't land his E then it's no bueno which is probably why he is seldom played in solo queue. More fun for me .

Hey - in case any of you want to get in on the PBE goodness, they are opening it up again to folks.  I VERY STRONGLY (GRRRRRRRRR or something) RECOMMEND looking into this.  It is not easy to get into PBE and you can test out preseason stuff on Nov 3

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/pbe-signups-open

man - I've got to work on not getting flustered.  Had a horribly painful game and only managed to call out times like once or twice.  

game 2- improvements in calling summoner timers, but I only keep up during lane phase.  Also, playing like shit tonight.  

game 3 - joke - i play with a d4 vs guys trying out ken/kay bot.  goes like u think it might.  I suck at calling out shite again.  2 guys I queued with said they waiting 41 minutes for the queue... I have no idea.  Maybe higher diamond folks dont' play much tb?  I did have an 8 min dc in the previous game due to AT&T being shite  -maybe that's related - my queue time for support was less than a min tho

game 4 - bleh - I do well in lane with a draven.  I think I maybe roam too much and we get no payoff.  Our top and jungle are crap.  My adc and mid are doing ok, but their mid is a tf, our mid a brand - and our brand doesn't get to push mid if the tf gettings buggering off.  He takes that time to slowly, boots 1 roam.. after a gank has been completed.,.. leaving the mid lane unpushed.  So, I guess my mid was shit... so it was really just me and the draven.. and I left the poor sod.

updating the post above.  Also, the guy d3 guy I mentioned is currently in a featured game playing azir... seems to be featured a bunch. oh and coral is playing ranked - currently gold III solo queue on the climb.

I wouldn't think it would be a game mode that appeals to high elo players.