We had a cease fire agreement, he didn't keep his end of it. I'm not sure where the confusion is, or why weapons of mass destruction even need to enter into it.

There were open celebrations in many countries in the middle east, though the one most talked about was in the Palestinian Authority. Chinese newspapers openly said that we were getting what we deserved. What really represented the tone against america, though, were the tons of interviews with educated, regular folks from all over the world who either think we deserved it, or don't believe it happened at all, or that americans and "The Jews" did it ourselves to make everyone want war.

A militant islamic cleric in Indonesia is now saying that it was United States operatives that destroyed the nightclub in Bali, so that we can go into Indonesia and kill terrorists. Of course we targeted Australians because we need their help and a good place to land planes on. It doesn't matter that only brainless people will believe him, since it is people who believe idiocy like that who fly planes into buildings.

As I said above, these are all hateful opinions I heard during the first gulf war.

bakerstreet, don't be fooled by what the media show you. Don't forget they are looking for hypes. The images of people dancing after 9/11 were ones of some Palestinian, and certainly not the Palestinian authority who radically condemned the attack.
Back in the heart of the cold war, do you think there were no American cheering over Chernobil? What if there was a Russian camera catching on film a few Americans dancing over the Russians deaths?
Did you not see the other shots showing Palestians crying over 9/11? Those too were caught on film? Why only remember the bad ones?

Let me tell you about the media.
A few years ago, I worked in a hospital and all the nurses went on strike to rightly protest against the indecent salary they were making and the overwork they had to do. The thing is that it wasn't really a strike. All normal services were maintained. All the nurses were doing is refusing to do overtime. I remember a TV crew walking in the emergency room where I worked. Seeing that everything was normal, that the patient were all receiving good care and that the strike had little or no effect over the patient's care, the News Crew were disapointed and decided to go check out another hopsital in the hope of finding one where they could show just how horrible the situation was with the nurse strike.
That's jornalism today, bakerstreet. Because they show you something on TV doesn't mean that it's how it really is everywhere else.
Beware my friend. Reality is not always what you see on TV.
Just take what you see for what it is: you saw a few Palestinians dancing in the steets after 9/11. Does that mean al Palestinians were dancing? No. Doe sthat mean that most Palestians were dancing? No. It only means that the Palestians you saw on TV were dancing, that's it.
As for the Newspapers you are talking about, don't forget that China doesn't have free Press. It's no surprise that the communist government of China doesn't like the American freedom. It certainly doesn't mean that the chiese people agree with that.
As for that Islamic cleric, well, come on. We know what to think of religious fanatics, don't we?
You make a case with a few mentaly disordered people.

I've seen images on TV of fanatic chritians in the US who burned books and records. I've read stories about the Klu Klux Klan. Do I think that Americans are therefore religious wackos and black-hating criminals? Certainly not.

Paxx: Sadly, I don't just watch TV. I'm not getting uppity with ya, Paxx, but Americans have both a free press and the freedom to look for other sources of information. DOn't let your mistrust of the press allow you to make up reality. I have a good number of islamic news sites in my favorites right now. There are plenty of ways to guage opinion outside the press, as well. Sure, the people could be robots, or brainwashed, or whatever, but sooner or later you have to say, "yup, that was enough to convince me". It takes a lot with me, believe it or not. I would prefer to think better of the world, but I'm never given a long enough lull in the hateful rhetoric to do so.

*cough* http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/JAK216001

P.S. in an off-topic, Axis of Evil note, has anyone read about North Korea letting the Japanese people they kidnapped 25 years ago visit Japan? Didn't let their families go, though. They admit they kidnapped them, they apologize for the fact, but they won't let them go home... Here's a link to that story as well.--> http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=1858917


You know, I was much happier when I was playing Everquest.

Love is the only answer to hate. Unfortunately love is always killed in reality. Propaganda is everywhere. Governments aren't open to the people. They hide a lot and at the utmost they tell half-truths. We know it. We don't like it. And we can't do a thing about it, because everytime someone stands up and promises to do what is good for the people that someone is brutally assassinated. That's the world we live in. I feel an uprising in everyone, there is an anger that comes out sooner or later just because of all the untruths that we are told. It has to go out somehwo and the only way people know how to do this is seek an enemy and smash him. Terrible. Bestial.

bakerstreet, you said it yourself: you check Islamic news sites to get their pulse. Well, that's no secret that the Islamists hate the Americans. I'm not going to check the Vatican web site for information on birth control.
Just so we agree on the semantics here:
Islamist is not equal to Arabs
Islamist is not equal to Islam either
Islamist = extreme religious Muslims who want religion to control the State.
Most Arabs are against Islamism. Most Muslims are against Islamism.

btw:

Saddam Hussein is by no means a radical muslim or islamist

i think the US left him in power for a reason. they were far more afraid of a democracy in Iraq than of Saddam´s dictatorship. the majority of the Iraqi popuplation (60-65 %) is of the Shi´a confession (as in Iran). closer and even friendly relationships between Iran and Iraq is what both the US and their middle east allies (all dictatorships and Saudi Arabia, the closest allie, is as similar to the Taliban regime as you can imagine) should worry about most.

I hate paxx. He says way too much intelligent things.

CIA world factbook: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html

Actually history has shown that a crushing military response is the most effective response to hate. Wars have solved a lot of problems for the long term.

I wish it weren't that way. And in fact I actually do believe the time will come when the world will be able to resolve its issues through diplomacy. Afterall, no one can envision a war between USA, Japan, Germany, UK, France these days. Yet 150 years ago war between any of these countries was always a very real possibility.

Eventually the rest of the world will share a culture in which problems are solved with words and not arms. But that world will be one where those nation states are governed from below - liberal democracies.

No two democracies have ever gone to war with each other.

paxx: I'm not gonna argue definitions with ya, but I think you are off a bit. I don't frequent terrorist news services, or even fringe services like al J.

There are no muslim democracies, that I am aware of. China certainly controls the thoughts of its people. That said, it is possible that all the people that hate America around the world are brain-washed. How, though, does that change anything? You still have to live in a world that is boobytrapped with those opinions. Is a brainwashed man less, or more, dangerous than someone who made their own conclusions?

Lecrayon: You are speaking from a position where you *can* weep and paint flowers, and it is offensive. Often, outside high school, people who a start fight want to *kill* you, and it does little good to offer Love as an answer. In the last 20 years hundreds of thousands of people have been killed waiting on Europe to find a way to wield Love. Jimmy Carter comes in afterward, works out a deal, and wins a Nobel prize. It does little for those who died waiting, though. I would suggest you crack a book and either come up with tangible ideas on how to fix the world, or quietly school yourself enough to take part. There are many, many people in the world who are alive today because wise people realized in time that Love wasn't going to save them.

Thank you Bakerstreet >

I find you offensive with that remark. You may nuke everyone you want, and play the intellectual guy. Let me enjoy the creations that are to be admired on earth. And some humans are not fitting in >

People like you Bakerstreet, that know how to offend people and somehow think they have the right to do that, because of whatever reason, are the pains in the society. You should watch your language first and try to understand what someone else is trying to say rather than to bloat some sentences. War has never been an answer. Yes, it gives a certain of instant relief, but sooner or later you will be drawn into a next one. Whether it is because you don't get your way, or just based on history's wars. War is ridiculous. I would rather see the people that incite masses to go to war or give them reason for outrageous hatred get killed or eliminated. Shoot that silly rule of not assassinating leaders. And sway with your books if you want, there hasn't been any of the books that could be truly implemented as an ideal society. Each of them has failed hilariously due to the perfect behaviour of mankind.

bakerstreet-
just two points you need to have clarified-
1) If you believe that the US has freedom of the press, then read the quote by John Swinton from my earlier posting.
2)"There are no muslim democracies, that I am aware of." Indonesia, the worlds most populous Muslim nation, is indeed a democracy, albeit a somewhat flawed one.

Lecrayon: I see no honest rebuttal, just weepy tirades against reality. Things happen, regardless of your personal distaste. I can't help that. There are a lot of people in awful parts of the world living in conditions where they don't have the option of offering 'love' to terrorists. The people in Bali had no option to retreat. The innocent people being killed now are not making war. How do they practice your philosophy? What would you suggest? Die peacefully?

People are screaming "WHy is the U.S. so pissed off?" and I am trying to answer that question from my persepective. Beyond trying to sound more evolved than the rest of us, I haven't seen anything from you that would change minds, only someone trying to shame people into ethical paralysis. War is ridiculous, sure, but it happens. If your country were invaded, or your government started gassing 'undesirables' to death, you'd be much more open to the idea of forceful intervention, I bet.

tinkergaloot: Sure all press is skewed, but as I said, if you take your news from a variety of sources, on both sides, you can glean a lot. Anyway, I'm a little confuised as to how people can educate themselves about current events without some sort of press. I know you wouldn't approve of a paranoid, blind public.

as to indonesia, I meant to say 'arab' instead of muslim, forgive me.

Bakerstreet, your answer to tackle this issue is just as silly as mine. Now you mention Bali, again I am referring to terrorist groups in Europe and Carlitus' input on this thread. There has never been any peace in the world after WW2. Tackle that. You can't. I can't. And united we can for a short time. You perhaps will howl like that soldier that just shot a few Iraki's and chased them into oblivion. To me that is just as paralysing.

Bakerstreet, you are right, there is no such thing as a "muslim democracy" just like there never was such a thing as a "christian democracy". Religious states are always dictatorships.
But there are indeed muslim countries that are democratic: Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey, and more I'm sure. There are also countries that are on the way to democracy, where only the legislative for now is elected. For example Morocco and Jordan.

I'm not trying to argue definitions bakersteet, that's what "Islamic" means. The words "Muslim", "Arab" and "Islamic" are not interchangeable. But indeed the word "Islamic" can often be interchanged with the word "Muslim Integrist".

Lecrayon: you know you are making absolutely no sense, right?

paxx: point taken, but my point was that it really makes no difference if the people are brainwashed citizens of a dictatorship or well-read citizens of free countries. As in your example, if you feel strongly about birth control, you can't just ignore the vatican's stance, that is your opposition. You're not suggest that I find out if people hate america by ignoring all the people who hate America are ya? If the silent majority in all these countries are walking around in 'I Love New York' T-Shirts, I'd suggest strongly that they speak up, it could not be more in their best interest at this point in history.

I'm not trying to be rude to you and tinkergaloot, I promise. I'm just not sure where you guys are suggesting people get their information from, if every possible source is suspect. What do I use to discount all the hateful opinions I hear; faith? How do I look into it, if not through soem sort of published media? I can't afford all that travel, and frankly it isn't very safe at the moment in places that I am most curious about. I might learn the hard way

anyone watch "Friends"?

Ross: I believe the words you are looking for are, "Sooo, Anyways..."

Can we go skin something already?

Let's go people...move along...nothing to see here...

I bet ya'll didn't even notice that aafuss has a working version of his babya-version-something-or-other, and that Splash! created it for him, and it works fairly well...

Come on now...put the donut down and step back into reality...grab yer skinning gloves and put on the safety helmet and go create something...

Kinrik: this is me taking breaks while skinning. Well, actually right now I am taking a break from writing content for my site ( a review of an H.P. Lovecraft biography ), but I've been skinning... I have a wallpaper I am itching to release, but I wanna wait til my site is up.

I'm just painfully dissatisfied with the apps I am looking at, or I am painfully blind to their possiblities. For God's sake, I am actually desperate enough to be pondering Stardock apps...

Most of us are Doreening our way through the day, I think.

hey, i didn't know you had a site. cool. i'd love to visit if you don't mind...

speaking of seats...i think the toliet seat i have at home was made for a kid. i can barely fit by backside on it, and i'm not a big guy...

now, these ones we have at work...heh...now THERE's industrial strength! fast flushing, large comfortable seating...heck, i could fall asleep if it weren't for the noises, odour, and pipes in my back...

No, bakerstreet, I am not suggesting you stop believing the media. But just watch the media with a critical eye. Also, try not to be selective in what you remember, and try not to let your emotions do the remembering for you. As I said earlier, after 9/11, while they showed those Palestinian dancing, they ALSO showed some other Palestinians crying. I remember the latter quite clearly, as much as I remember the former.
Yes, there are some people who hate Americans. But there are also some people, including arabs and muslims, who love Americans. And as there are some people who don't care one way or the other. Just like there are people who love France, Germany, Italy, and there are people who hate the same countries.

The sad thing in life is that you always hear the more noisy ones more. And usually, the negative ones are the loudest ones. While we see often in the news some people manifesting in the streets with anti-America signs, the sad truth is that although there are some people who love America, they won't go in streets with signs saying it. People criticize easily but sadly rarely compliment.

Well sorry not to be on your intellectual level Bakerstreet. You haven't grabbed why I wrote that message about crying and painting flowers though. Guess that was too far from your headspace. A pity you can't lower yourself to my intellectual standard and try to understand what I have meant there. And about not making sense, well same dumb brains of me I guess. I hope you are satisfied in bashing people you can thumb down.

by = my in my post...rereading it i found it...