Bin Laden is also responsible for blowing away the ozone layer and leaving us with an inch of topsoil...

'Psychology'....

Wombat...it looks like the majority of the dead in Bali will be Aussies...

Exactly my (cynical) point Jafo. >

Here's an update on how this conversation, and the state of the world, has effected me.

I like food, and I spend a good amount of money on small amounts of stuff. I passed over two bottles of wine and some cheese yesterday, because of where it was produced and the anti-American sentiment there. I bought domestic instead. I would save a lot of money if I forced myself to do that with all my luxury goods. I hadn't read much about Italy lately, so I stuck with my prosciutto di parma and coppa.

I won't go visit Paris now, on principle, ever. I have no urge to go to Oktoberfest, though I had planned to in the next couple of years. I didn't buy Warsteiner at the store, either. I want to be a 'small country', too; they have it made. The US could pretend to be a small, Europeanesque country, and yet actually be able to protect itself when it is threatened. The best of both worlds, No?

Why allow foreign nationals to work or learn here in America? So many intellectuals from Europe, the Middle East, Far East, and Central Asia scream that we are evil, and then they bitch and whine when we cut back work or student visas. Why is their education any of our business, why should we freely admit people from countries that do not appreciate other people's freedom?

Last week, if LeCrayon's country was overrun, I would have supported a full response from America, no questions asked. Now? I would have to ponder whether it was any of our business. I mean, have the aggressors attacked us? What criterea is better than that? Is the suffering of a population enough of an excuse to make war on someone who hasn't attacked you? It would be cheaper for the US to stand aside, cry and paint flowers...

So many of my countrymen might still be alive had we simply protected *ourselves* for the last hundred years...

Recently I have heard this same, sad, (and admittedly short-sighted), rant from countless other Americans, as well. The world is creating a more protectionist, isolationist American. It takes a while before our, the common folk's, feelings trickle into US foreign policy, but if it lasts, it will get there sooner or later. I hope the world likes what they get.

Anyway, you win, I, an American, no longer want war in Iraq, but I don'

I was cut off... con't

"but I don't want to waste my tax money containing him either. I want YOU to do it, and I really don't care if you are successful or not."

I like cheese. I like festivals. I want to be able to live and eat and party in peace without a threat of my life in the balance.

Some of those "people" who think America are "evil" usually come from places that can not express themselves and/or are lacking in many rights and education. Other people who think America is "evil" are those who do not have a clue as to what is really going on and the fact that any country can fall under the qualification of "evil" if it is powerhouse. Money and power don't reall corupt people, but it does magnify thier personallities. Thier decitions affect more people.

So since America is the "powerhouse" with the money, our polocies are magnified by the money and influence they have. Some policies are good and others a not. But since it effects so many, it becomes a very big deal. The funny thing is if it was another country, there would still be policies that would be good or bad.

So in the end, I want to be able to eat the cheese and I want and go to parties.

"I want to be able to eat the cheese and I want to go to parties" ......
Perhaps the way of the World in these times is more a case of 'you can't have your cheese and eat it too'.
As I write this the confirmed death toll in Bali is rising and another little country is staring economic ruin in the face.
Enjoy your cheese and partying.....some of us have real work to do.
Jafo, have to postpone catching up next weekend, Peter Cosgrove needs some of his staffers back. >

wombat....I'll wave to you from the S/F line then...

Bakerstreet, what kind of attitude is that?
If somebody doesn't agree with you, he's automatically your ennemy? If a country doesn't agree with the current US administration, that country is automatically anti-American? Wow!
What about US citizens who don't agree with Bush and his friends? Does that make him a traitor?

France is not anti-American. France, Germany and a whole lot of European countries actually love the American culture. American cinema, American music, American food, clothes, etc. Because they don't agree with America politically does not make them an ennemy of the nation. Sheeesh!

For those who are relying heavily upon the press, both in the US and abroad, for information about the current world situation, it might be worth taking heed of the following quote:

Asked to give a toast before the prestigious New York Press Club, John Swinton, the former Chief of Staff at the New York Times, made this candid confession [it's worth noting that Swinton was called "The Dean of His Profession" by other newsmen, who admired him greatly]:

"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.
If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper,before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."

Food for thought...

For an independent and liberal view, try this http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

Enjoy your cheese and partying.....some of us have real work to do.
Wombat - you've made many intelligent observations in these threads, but usually washed down with some nasty, snide little dig. Your opinions are almost always interesting. Your sarcasm isn't.

Paxx: As for what kind of attitude it is, it is a bad one. Forgive me, after years of listening to griping and whining about the America the Bully, America the destroyer of French (and however many other) Cultures, America the ruin of the third world; i am finally starting to feel the sting. I was born in 1970. It is all I have ever heard. My LANGUAGE is considered a destructive force in some nations... Man-on-the-street interviews anywhere in the world will get you opinions like the ones above, without having to try very hard.

My outrage at Iraq isn't based upon gas prices. I'm American, though, so I must really want a summer home in Baghdad and 1960's gas prices. What the world needs to understand is that no matter what they think of the American gevernment, attacking the goodwill of the American people, who genuinely care about aiding the world, is *foolish*. If you tell us, as a people, to butt-out, sooner or later we will.

I am tired of caring for a world who at best doesn't want my care, and at worst thinks my care is just a front for evil intent. I don't wish anyone any harm, I just think maybe we ought to give the world what it wants, a few decades of America keeping to itself.

Wombat was understandably upset, and he should have been. I have been sick over Bali, myself. Indonesia is a large, sovereign state of 200 million people, and has a very, very easygoing definition of 'terrorist'. HAD America done anything substantial to hamper terrorism there, the 'meddling' would have been seen as the cause of the attack. Some in the Australian government have blamed American policy on Iraq for provoking it already. I don't blame the Australian people for that, I know the difference. My prayers are for all the harmed families there, and those that are still waiting for news.

howdy, I'm back...

frogboy, why don't you save your skinning community and delete this thread before people begin scorch-earthing this place of their works?

i'm off to comment on more artwork and skins...

One thing that seems to get forgotten in everything is that We Americans are the mutts of the world or as Bill Murry said in the movie Strips "We have been kicked out of every self respecting country in the world". We truly are the mutts of the world, EVERY nationality is represented and for the most part our differences are embraced. I'm sorry that we are a diverse mixture that accepts that people are different, I'm sorry that the residents of this country try to help their former country men, I'm sorry that we give the time of day to the rest of the world, I'm sorry that I have friends who are from different religions, I'm sorry that we ever broke free of England, I'm sorry that we aided Europe during and after world war two, I'm sorry that we are who we are, a nation of Mutts. And if you think that I'm SORRY about being any of the above, I’m NOT, I’m proud to be a damm MUTT. Sorry, but we Americans are British, French, Russian, German, Australian, Austrian, Swedish, Spanish, Mexican, Egyptian, Saudi, Iraqi, Brazilian, Kenyan, Finnish, Mexican, Philippino, Japanese, Chinese, Greek, Indian, Afghani, Canadian, South African, Chilean, Peruvian, Korean, Vietnamese, and ALL the rest that is what we are no more and no less. So when you look in the mirror and say we are so bad, wonder how many of your former country men are looking back at you. We have our faults, and our problems, but then again what country on the face of the globe does not.

Chris

/me

Stripes...

Damm, and I tried so had to spell everthing right

Ah such is Life.....

/me gets Blindfold and a Smoke. Waits for Jafo to show up with the Spelling Squad

ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Had=Hard.....

/me goes to hide under rock from Jafo

heh...we won't mention how your "/ me" didn't work either in your original post...

Regarding this discussion:
I have great faith in the people who visit this message board. People are being quite reasponable and intelligent in it. We are all friends. Differences in opinions does not mean differences in principals. I don't think anyone here wants to turn anyone else into bone flecked jam.

Regarding electric powered cars:
Not going to happen. Electricity has to be produced somehow and it's primarily produced by burning coal and oil. It is much MUCH better for the environment to drive a gas powered car than driving an electric car because the pollution produced per watt is less (burning coal, converting that to energy and then transmitting it to your home to plug into your car loses a lot of energy to heat and discharge). Hybrid cars are your best bet for the foreseable future but all that will do is slow the rate of increase of use of fossil fuels.

Regarding war with Iraq
For many (including me I confess) the issue is defeating militant islam. Iraq is simply the path of least resistance to fight it right now. The choices all stink. Do nothing and risk millions of deaths or do something and ensure thousands of deaths. So it boils down to how high the millions of death risk is. As an American, the odds of an American being one of those millions of dead is much greater than say someone in Belgium. Therefore Americans tend to consider the millions of death risk more unacceptable than someone in Belgium.

I just think that people really underestimate the good will of the American people, even towards our 'enemies'. My anger comes from the fact that the 'man-on-the-street' opinion towards the American people seems a lot more bleak throughout the world... I have seen too many smug, post 9-11 polls, demonstrations, and flaming effigies to believe differently. I will be very choosy how I show my support for these places; vocally, or as a traveler/consumer.

Paxx is wrong to say I consider such people to be my enemies. Why must I categorize them at all? I'm not fond of a lot of people, and I wouldn't buy anything from them, but I wouldn't call them enemies, either. America has only a handful of true allies around the world, and we have earned ourselves a great deal of misery forcing that title onto nations that don't deserve it. "Freindship" is not a default state, it is earned, as is it's opposite; we in America are learning this a couple of generations too late, IMHO.

bakerstreet, the reason I said "ennemy" is because you mentionned the word "anti-american".
I must admit I am tired of hearing that word, along with "anti-jew", "anti-black", or anti-anything a soon as you dare have a different opinion as a person in one of those groups. Or even chauvinist if you think differently than a woman.

I know nobody who really is anti-american. It would be stupid anyway, since as Grog mentionned, it is difficult to define what an "American" is, other than somebody who lives in the USA. Americans are as different between themselves as any country in the World is different from another. And that's a good thing.
No, what some country condemn or are opposed to is NOT the American people, but the American foreign policy, over which you have little or no control.
If you want to understand how some people feel, try to reverse the roles. For you, America is the "good guy", necesserely. But for other people in the World, America is just a country, like any other country. Not presumely good nor presumely evil.
Just for one minute, lets play a game. Imagine that the USA is just a small, modest country. Not poor, but not rich either. It has an army, a modest one. Then, imagine that there is this big country, lets call it China. It has a terrible military power. It is 10 times stronger militarely as all the other countries in the World together. Now, that country, China, keep saying that they are the good guys, and that you should be grateful because they are there to protect you, as long as you don't oppose to them. Now, would you not be afraid? Would you prefer them to be there, powerful, capable of smushing you under its feet like a spider? Would you trust this foreign country so much? Are you completly sure that one day, they won't elect a nutty president that would rule over the World and destroy you?
If you're a Chinaman, a China powerful of that sort is a pride, a security, a relief even. But if you're not a Chinaman, that powerful China inspires fear, and fear inspires hate.
Goliath, even if he was a good guy, inspired fear because he was big and invincible.

Nobody hates the American people, bit yes, a lot of people fear the American governement with its almighty military power.
Bakerstreet, can you understand that? It's not personal. You're powerfull that's all. Too powerfull.

Kinrik....there's no need to delete the thread. We're all 'grown up' enough to argue and discuss without pulling hair...

Grog....I'll say 'nothing' about your spelling except to say it's 'damn', not 'damm'...

To give you guys a little info....Bali is effectively to Australia what Hawaii is to the US.....'our' tropical paradise where 8% of all Aussie flight departures goes to.
Australians are more likely to have been to Bali than even Tasmania...

If one were to 'mathematically' compare 9/11 with this, accounting for population differences, then in US population terms, Australia has about 200 confirmed dead and 3000 missing.

Guess it's the price we pay for 'protecting' Timor as well as supporting Bush.

It ain't gonna stop us though....we're even more pig-headed than the yanks...

paxx: You grant the people in question far too much intellectual and ethical credit when you project your own thinking on them.

I read the Chinese news opinions of 9-11, I saw people celebrating in the streets, and I heard praise for the attack come from mouths that I could have tutored in college. I was an English tutor at a school that had a high number of students from the middle east, many from royal (read: fascist) families. That was during the the Gulf War, so this isn't the first time I heard these hateful opinions.

Put yourself in our place as well. My tax money goes for a "defense" budget that has less to do with defense than babysitting the world, and for that investment I have seen my nation burned in effigy on the nightly news for the last 30 years. We welcome any and all people to come, get an education, get wealthy, and then when the whim hits them, they can go home and hate us.

I'd like to plan a vacation without hearing the word "terrorist" come out of my 6 year old daughter's mouth. She, at that age, knows that there are people in the world that will kill her if they get the chance, just because she is American. Xenophobic hate is beginning to come easy for Americans, and that is not good for the international 'community', not at all.

That is my perspective, and I *hate* it, so much so that the esoteric concerns of the old, quiet, European empires are of absolutely no significance.

I just read a Op ed on this subject. In someway reflects how I feel and maybe other too. If we go one way then "this", but if we say we will go one way maybe "that" won't happen

It is a very hard debate Iraq and going in or not and the reasons why. If they go in what will happen could be anything from a Desert Storm type fight or World War II.

Reporters from around the wolrd will be watchin and showing the fight. It will be played differently depending on where you are even though it is the same event. Al Jezzeria will play it one way and CNN will play it another.

Well here is the artical. What do you think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/13/opinion/13DOWD.html?todaysheadlines

This is a little off topic but I wanted to know, who danced in the streets after 9/11 happend? Do they really represent the tone toward America or was it just a reporter finding a nidle in a haystack (just to play it over and over again making it seem like it was happening everyday)