Marina, please look up the word monopoly. You'll find it very enlightening.

As for Stardock software, it's not the only game in town it just happens to be the best!

Hmm...

Posters like Pete and similar are called "trolls". Frequent users of web boards are familiar with such characters and normal course of action is simply to ignore them. The whole idea of "throlling" is to wind up people. Not to insult everybody, but those who reply to such posts, trying to reason with them, are wasting their time.

Visit boards of different software or service companies, who offered something for free, then started charging for products, services or simply provide some extras for subscribers. You'll see tenth or hundrers posts like Pete's.

So developers should realise, that if something they provide is useful to general public and people think it's really worth asked price, end users will happily pay for it.

If somebody doesn't like it, it's their problem. Simple as that. You can't satisfy everybody and it shouldn't be the goal anyway. There're others who will support you.


OK, rant mode off.

Have a nice day all.

mgorbach...
Your recollections of skinz.org and its financial history differ from reality.
Its 'attempts' to remain 'free' to users enabled that wonderful company 'eFront' to git its claws into it and thus it died a sad death when the skinners revolted and left en-mass.
Wincustomize.com was created as a 'financially stable' replacement to fill the void, and, with the knowledge of hind-sight and some sensible heads overseeing things, it has thrived.

And skinning is still 'free'. The difference now is that there is at least one site that hosts skins that wont succumb to the modern equivalent of eFront and/or other disasters of economy...

What Wincustomize has sucumbed to IMHO is worse than what happened at skinz.org
Stardock is charging for other people's work, i know the reason is bandwith, but face it without the skins there would be nothing to charge for, so they are charging for other people's work, its not their right to do that. Why do all the skinners copyright their stuff saying "do not sell or make money in any way off of these skins" I just hope this payperview scheme wont spread to other good sites.

mgorbach,

Opinions are like -------. Your argument is not valid. You continue to look at this issue with tunnelvision. You see what you want to see. Don't stir up shit here just because you need a place to whine.

You know that if Stardock pulled the plug(MONEY) from WC that the other skin site would not last 3 months. They would be beseiged with so many downloads that they would have to start charging or go under. If you cannot see that then you need to go back to school. I for one am glad they haven't. Also if you think that without WC stardock would go broke you are crazy. You still need the software.

?????????????????

are you insane? or slow? or what? How is this different than anyone making money on advertising from the skins they host? Show me these free sites, right now. I demand it.

Like i said, go now, go to Geocities, and upload your 'work' there. Sit and wait. When, after a year, you realize that no one is seeing it, you will realize what you are paying for here. As long as you can delete your work, and that SD isn't including it in any of their merchandise, what you are getting here is a free way to share your skins with people. IF those same people download more that 100 megs and don't contribute anything in return, then they have to pay. Is this your site? No, so your ongoing rant doesn't seem to have any point at all.

Here's an idea. Grow a backbone. If you don't think that WC is telling the truth, and that they are making oodles of money and this is not just to cover the cost, then state your proof. Enlighten us with the locations of these free skin sites you are referencing. Do SOMETHING besides piss and moan.

p.s. if you are not talking as a skinner, and all the skinners here are disagreeing with you, who exactly are you bearing a torch for? The users? Go start a site list this and see how sympathetic to your monthly transfer. They'll bleed you dry, and move on.

"start a site like this and see how sympathetic they are to your monthly transfer" cut-and-paste woes...

"without the skins there would be nothing to charge for, so they are charging for other people's work,its not their right to do that"

This makes no logical sense whatsoever. They are two separate things. By your logic there is no such thing as hosting, bandwidth, delievery and so on (even though the reality clearly shows otherwise.

To put in in realworld terms:

When someone sends mail to someone and put it in the mailbox, don't someone put a stamp on it? A stamp which someone paid for because the post office requires such payment for their "hosting and delivery" mechanism? Sure it'd be nice to blow off the post office but they'd do squat unless they're compensated for their services.

Same thing holds true with web-hosting and all the costs that it entails. You can't just magically wave your arms and say that its a non-issue.

Thank you bakerstreet, I've always been offended by goofs like mgorbach who must think I'm a dupe by uploading here. I'm here because its well run, I like the crowd and it will be here.

I have purchased so much software I wouldn't want to to know the total. I do so because it's the quality I'm looking for and enjoy. But like anything else, you get what you pay for. That's the way it is. Have purchased a few of these seperately and finally purchased OB and glad I did but didn't HAVE TO. I don't skin, yet but someday. I consider using the skins and all the bells and whistles, this site provides, as a hobby and something I enjoy! I can't think of too many hobbies that don't cost something. I am so glad this site is here and appreciate all the artists who contribute their talents.

I pretty much sum it up here:
http://draginol.stardock.com/Articles/Thereisnosuchthingsasafre.html

Users don't pay for skins. Users who are using the resources of this site (Bandwidth, CPU resources, database resources, etc.) the most are asked to contribute something back.

That something doesn't have to be money. It can come in the form of contributing skins, themes, icons, etc. It can come in the form of becoming an active participant on the message boards.

A community is supposed to be about people helping and sharing with each other. The people who thus far have complaine dthe loudest have tended to be the ones who want to take on an unlimited basis without ever contributing something back.

Heck, even if that isn't enough, there's the basic issue that to get to 100 megabytes of stuff you're probably using a warez'd or unregistered shareware version of the program you're using those things on which in itself is kind of crummy.

ok I had to come back for this one... he answers one question "Neowin"... what about "Deviant art"?

what about the contributing COMMENTS?


What about maintainance of the site? What does Noewin have?? Database is quite large? true... what other problems are they facing?


did I mention if you COMMENT on skinners work you wouldn't have a cap?



Is there a reason why my questions gt ignored? am I writing to much??? What about all the other reasons why a site this large should ask for COMMENTS ON SKINS???


this is what I wrote ealier:

yes it is sad things are not just for "free". I understand the "commercilization" of skinning your talking about. That is a issue by itself, but what does that really have to do with maintaining a site< or paying for bandwidth? If your point is that your willing to deal with downtime or not being able to upload or download works, or get pop up adds, and so one... plus..PLUS not everyone would like that they are being slapped with ads or asked to "please" donate. Not all people even DONATE!! ANYTHING at all. Nada, what about those who just download and say or do nothing to help COMENT on skinners work???


I left a post in the other thread in the hopes that somebody comes up with real data as to why wincustomize should not aks people to comment on skinners work or help skinners or buy a browser that gives you more then you spend.

20 dollars??? for 2 years?? come on. they even now let you try it for freee....



I don't know about you but I want to help and I do so by COMMENTING on WORKS...

--------

I think you have a point and your trying to make it but you need more evedince. Examples, understanding of database design... something and not just a comment off the top of your head about a site who most likely had many problems that you never saw because you were to busy downloading.

I just also want to say that I appreiciate you actuall coming back to say something in responce to why your commenting they way you are Sir mgorbach, because most people who comment like this just leave without really discussing the merrit of there argument

I might just stop by and see if you can answer any of the questions I posted. By the way, if you thought I just believed wincust when they wanted money, I didn't. I wanted to start my own ite and found out what it costs. My advise is to start there for some of your answers to the statement you posed. And try to get some info on data managent or see how hard it is to skin something and not get any COMMENTS.. sorry for shouting... just wanted your attention.



----------------------

BTW

Don't know if I should mention this but as a person who loves this site and somewhat addicted to skins and skinning myself I have been to most of the popular sites many times. I'll just say the downloads I have far surpass 100mb!!! but I bought OD and for other sites.... here it comes

I COMMENT ON WORK!!!

take a look at some responces I got back just for commenting

http:/joetheblow.deviantart.com


It's ok to disagree, but it is better to come with some information to back up the argument. I look forward to your repsonce on the message board.


P.S.

I think by commenting so many time here tecnically you should be eligable for unlimited downloads... isn't that ironic???

The real question in my mind boils down to this:

Why should the people who have contributed to the community (whether it be registering software, creating skins, helping out users and skinners, etc.) have to subsidize users who are usually using warez copies of software on an indefinite basis?

I am a bit surprised that someone would use Neowin as an example of a site that is running "fine". I think Neobond would disagree (and if we could run WC on a 1.5 megabit connection instead of a 20 megabit connection then we wouldn't be having this discussion).

you know...you could follow in microsoft's footsteps (with a twist) and have a strict activation code, where you monitor all activation accounts and serial numbers (I don't know what you use now, never bought any software from ya'll, sorry to admit that)...anyways, when they go for the upgrade, have it verify the old serial number and have a database query who the number was issued to and when, among other things (ip address, os, etc...there is a ton of data you can pull from a standard install, even online during d/l from an active html page, even with the cookies and java off)...


well, maybe I shouldn't have brought this back to the top again, but I wanted to give the "legitimates" some ideas...maybe there is a fresh one in there somewhere...

Seems like the current way is pretty easy as it does't affect many people.

If we're taking heat over something as benign as a 100 meg download limit on people who haven't registered their software, you can imagine the reaction to anything else.

Amen to that!

I am so tired of this, I am just going to skip any further threads on this subject. If you don’t like the way this site is run, then go, and stop burning up bandwidth.....
PS. I Post quite a bit of work here, and I am proud of the way it is represented buy this site. That is my vote on the mater.

Good night, Good by, or good riddance. Which ever is appropriate?