if any of you who have enough experience in the field of gui skinning to be able to rate here feel my work deserves a low rating, it is my responsibility to swallow it, accept it as the informed opinion of my peers

migelltio....the problem here is, all one has to do now is spend $20 for a subscription, and start rating skins. You don't even need to have ever opened a graphics program. $$$ is all it takes to become a "peer".

I do agree with you in this statement
i'd rather have an honest opinion than somebody buttering me up or 'being nice' by padding the rating. if i'm going to let that bother me, i'd better drop any notions of art right now.

I'm no artist, just a skinner, but the concept is the same.

Jafo, there have been some threads around about ratings during my "participation" times. From those I have understood quite well that it is a long time discussed issue. I, for one, believe the person who writes:
The rating system is EXTREMELY inconsistent. So, until the consistency improves, I have removed all of my skins. Bye... what more explanation do you want? Why search for other issues that caused this. It is stated open and frankly, it's the rating system. If you search for something else, maybe you should accept you live a bit in denial here.

I actually don't know why I keep commenting on all this. It just sickens me to the bone. I will restrain myself from the message boards. The stance is so obvious. No further comments.

I guess you could leave the ratings upto the moderators! Boy, what a burdon they would have.

I might have said that was a viable solution once upon a time, until you realize that the "straw that broke the camel's back" as it were, was a rating by one such moderator.

Looking at the big picture, the problem is not with one specific rating, it is with the rating system in general. It gives too much power to one group of people. This group is initially allowed to arbitrarily rate our creations without any regard for the basic criteria set forth in the rules.

No, leaving it up to the moderators is not the solution. "Fixing" or "revamping" the rating system is not the solution. The solution is to abolish the rating system altogether. It serves no real purpose except to afford this "group" of people a feeling that they have power. And they do *love* to feel powerful.

The end result is a feeling of ill will, a continuing battle over something that will never change, and most alarming, the gradual alienation of the WinCustomize and Stardock customer base.

Every site has some form of ratings. It's a necessary part of dealing with a database driven site. Especially with a database as large as this one.

motion, (and everyone else) please realize that there are several things that can affect your ratings. There was a bug in the system for a while that seemed to be causing problems, there are always going to be people that secretly take pleasure in screwing up someone's ratings and there are several admins all looking at the piece as it comes through trying to reach a consensus on whether it gets posted.

If you ever feel a rating is lower than it deserves to be you can contact an admin to have it evaluated and corrected. I have done this many times for artists that wrote to me pointing out an unfair rating.

I have no idea what "group" of people you are referring to motion. There is no such group here that I know of. It certainly isn't a lust for power over your fate that makes me help out here. It's because I want to help and feel proud to be part of the team that keeps this site working. Every admin at this site takes the responsibility seriously and tries to be fair and consistent.

The filter of 4 for viewing wallpapers has come up again and we've been accussed of using that as some sort of tool of vengance. For the record, I have never rated a submission that got posted lower than 4 because I feel if it's being posted it should be able to be viewed by anyone. If someone else rates it lower because they feel that's what it deserves, that's their right to do so. If you feel it's unfair, contact an admin. Remember, the filter can be adjusted in your profile and most people that regularly visit this site have probably done so.


motion - I still have no idea what happened that made you so upset.

DavidK...oh I restrain yes ....read again what motion says...denial denial...*firmly lips together*

Excuse me for not repling sooner. My wife felt I had been sitting behind this computer long enough and she wanted me to start helping a bit with the household chores. She had a point.

David, here it is in a nutshell.

I uploaded a skin that was part of a series. Previous uploads of the skin had received initial ratings ranging from 6 to 7. The new upload received a 4.

I know, and I understand that the default rating is 6 for times when a moderator is unavailable to rate the skin. However, the 7 and the 4 both had to be assigned by someone. (I did check to make sure these ratings were not influenced by other members. The number of ratings at the time of these two postings was zero. ) Most likely it was not the same person. Still, even the French judge at the Winter Olympics was closer to the other judges than this.

Because the skins were part of a series and the only difference between the skins was colour I was forced to conclude that an arbitrary decision was made based on some persons preference (or lack there of) for the colour of the last skin I uploaded.

In my mind, I could not reconcile the two extreme ratings just because the colours were different. If uploading multiple skins with only a colour change is frowned upon, then this needs to be indicated somewhere in the rules of the site.

In my defense, I was simply responding to a request from people who wanted the new colour variations. I would have compounded them into one file but I had been having a lot of difficulty creating such a file, and literature on creating compound WB skins is scarce.

As for the rest of your message, I will take your word that no such "group" exist. I have no reason to doubt you. I am the first to admit, that in the present world situation, sometimes paranoia and conspiracy theories can get the better of a person.

Hopefully this will indicate to you why I was originally upset.

ofcourse, it was the bug >

Lecrayon: Quit instigating.

Thanks for your reply motion... I'm also taken away from the computer by some real-life chores at the moment, I will respond as soon as I can get some time, your situation deserves a thoughtful response.

I quit overall WiseOldMan I just wanted to take away that excuse from the admins. Besides many like to see me go rather than stay...I will do them a favour!

Since I like to make up my own mind on wether or not a skin is any good, I just went into "Edit Account" and changed the setting to display any skin with a rating of 1 or higher.

Thats the way it should be Grog. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

motion: I know this question doesn't pertain to this thread, but what is tainted potato salad? Tainted youth looked like some sort of misfit site(to be polite).

okay, I'm back...

I'm sorry to say, I don't remember the skins in question nor do I remember a series of skins with different colors being rated wildly different. That's only because I spend more time in the upload queue than I do in the regular skin or wallpaper sections. The amount of time I can manage for the site is usually consumed going through all the work awaiting moderation. the message board and a couple other areas. I try to get out and browse through the skins occasionally but it's not every day. That being said, here's what I think could have happened, and why;

There's a bunch of people listed as moderators but only 7 of them are very active at moderating. At any given time there could be any one or several of those 7 people looking at the submissions. There can be as many as 30 pieces waiting to be posted, some of them need special treatment, like an email asking for some details about the work or some investigation on the net looking for a possible unauthorized source that was used or a lot of other things that will keep a piece in the queue for a long time. Maybe it's just a case of a wallpaper that is on the fence and is collecting comments and opinions so we can make a group decision as to whether or not to let it in. Whatever the case, the queue is an interesting beast that can consume a lot of time and even get emotional at times.

I can only speak for myself and not the other moderators. I will say though that every one of them takes the responsibility seriously and makes an honest and thoughtful effort to do what is best for the site, and for the artists. I don't know if it was me that posted your skin with a 4 (or the earlier one with a 7) but I can imagine it very possibly could have been. I consider the entire range of scores 1-10 to be valid. In the case of wallpapers, I don't post something that I won't give at least a 4 because of the filter. If it gets dropped below that after it's up on the site, that's the way it goes. With all other categories the full range of ratings is visible.

I consider 4-6 to be where most of the work fits. To get a 7 it must be exceptional, an 8 or a 9 exceptional, innovative and perfect in its execution, a 10 is very rare and should indicate the piece is at the top of the format's capabilities.

Sometimes I've noticed the state of the queue has an influence on my ratings. I try to avoid this but just the fact that I've noticed myself doing it means it's happening. It probably happens to others too. The way this works is, there might be a whole bunch of wallpapers that will all be moderated, a few ripped skins, a couple copyright infringement skins, etc all at the same time. That can make the task of moderating a real challenge to anyone. In a case like that I might let in a wallpaper that is perhaps a bit below the standard because it looks good compared to everything else being uploaded. I might also skip over a skin or rubber-stamp it because I know it's okay and I know I need to put a lot of effort into doing the other ones. It's not right, it doesn't happen that often, but it sets up a situation where a skin could get either a higher or a lower rating than it would with a bit more scrutiny.

I don't know why there was such a discrepancy in the ratings on your two skins. I do know a lot of reasons why it could happen though. The one thing I think is most important to remember is you can always approach us (any of us) and discuss something like that. Like I said before, I've been contacted by artists regarding ratings many times. Usually it's a case of someone dropping a rating by giving a piece a 1 and making the final result lower than it should be. We'll always try to fix what looks like a rude or vengeful rating and we'll always be willing to talk things over, investigate problems and try to keep the system friendly to everyone.

Finally, the ratings themselves are only really meaningful if 20 or 30 people rate the skin. That's not happening so I don't take the ratings seriously on my own work. The ratings cause a lot of grief for people which is a real shame because they aren't meant to decide what people 'like' they are just to add a sort mechanism and some manageability to the database. The comments and download counts tell a much more meaningful story about the work. The ratings will always be wrong to somebody.

The real danger is taking ratings too seriously which can lead to reactions that a person might regret later. Sorry this got so long but I want you to know, we're just regular old people with all the flaws trying to do the best we can. Everyone gets the same opportunities and the same treatment. And as much as we are able, we would like that to be perceived as fair and caring for the artists, the members and the site visitors.

Thank you David.

I know I over-reacted at the start. It happens sometimes. Just like you and all the other moderators, circumstances can have an effect on how you react to something. July 17th was a particularly bad day for me.

I do understand the enormous stress you and all the moderators can sometimes be under. I'm not a stranger to stress myself. (I work for a graphic design/printing company where every hour is a deadline.) Sometimes, the enormity of the situation can lead one to look for shortcuts, but like you said, it is very rare.

It's been a few days, and I'm calmer now. Reason has had a chance to creep back in.

Enough reason to know that I will probably begin uploading skins again some day, although I doubt I will re-upload the ones I removed. (They would remind me of a bad few days in my life that I would just as soon forget.) So, it will most likely just be new ones.

Again, thanks for the reply. It has hit it's mark and I'm rational once again.

I think Dave has covered everything admirably...

One other thing, though.....yes, it's true, just like the OS you use to view this, the site generates 'bugs', as the coding is in constant revision/improvement....It's sort of 'entertaining' to come to 'work' each day only yo discover the Janitor has moved the entrance, painted the walls pink, and forgotten to empty the ash-trays....but we love 'im anyway...

The 'bug' was very real....I've checked it first-hand...

Er....'yo', dude....that's 'to'...

{It's Monday morning in Oz....I'm allowed some mistakes]...

Saw an interesting discussion over at DeskMod about ratings. Or at least: as interesting as a discussion about ratings can get (ergo: not quite).

Someone made the very valid point that people will look at ratings as school ratings. Meaning 5 (or 50) and below is insufficient, 6 (or 60) is just good enough, 7 (or 70) is so so. GOod starts at 8 and above and people actually expect to get 10s, as if it were a school test or something.

In fact though, the way Dave rates is far more realistic. An average skin will get an average rating, meaning most skins should end up in the 4-6 range.

But if you mix the two systems, you get miscommunications. And we all know what that can lead to.

What? Windows XP has bugs? I thought it was to be the OS to end all OS's. I'm sure that's what Mr. Gates said!

I'm glad you're back motion...

now, where did China go?......

Hey WiseOldMan.

Tainted potato salad is potato salad that's been left out in the sun too long. Eating it in that state would probably result in long, long bouts of uncontrolable vomitting. .....much like that.

Those aren't bugs.......they're enhancement anomalies.

Thank you motion. Glad your back, missed your humor.