Frogboy Frogboy

Is it really free vs. non-free?

Is it really free vs. non-free?

I was thinking about something last night while going through some of my game posting archives.

The issue isn't so much about free vs. non-free. It's really an issue of time vs. no time.

Much of the arguments on both sides boil down to very different perspectives on the value of time.

When you're a kid (i.e. a teen) you have all the time in the world. You may not think you do when you're a teen but you really do. I remember even in college thinking I was "swamped" but I did, afterall, write a commercial software product that went on to bring in millions of dollars between working 3 other jobs and taking Electrical Engineering classes full time. In essence, I had time.

Now, being "old" (just turned 30), time is more important to me than money.

To use an unrelated example:
Most strategy games come with "packs" that contain extra maps and sell for $20. These packs get flamed by some people like crazy because one can find plenty of good maps for free if they dig for them.

But that is exactly the point. Someone like me is not willing to "dig". If I can get all the maps I might want for a favorite game for just $20 instantly, then I'm set.

Convenience, short for time savings, outstrips the value of saving some nominal cost.

That's where the paid skin debates come in. There are lots of excellent free skins out there. There are some excellent free suites out there as well. But for someone who's really busy and wants to have a complete, unified look, $10 is nothing and to get a complete unified suite of 20 different skins is an incredible bargain.

This extends to software as well. Sure, you can hunt for a good freeware alternative but when I need something done, I'm going ot go with whatever I find first that works well. We paid $500 for Webtrends even though there are plenty of free log analysers out there. We just didn't feel like fooling with them. Same for our mail server. We paid for one even though there are lots of free ones. This is one reason why Linux has failed as a desktop. Because the bulk of users out there aren't teens with massive time on their hands. THey just want to sit down and get the thing to work with minimum effort and time.

So I think much of the debates on "Freeware" vs "payware" is really a debate of which you value - time or money. For most adults, $10 or $20 is so nominal that it is effectively free AS LONG AS IT'S CONVENIENT TO PAY.

But when you're a teen, it's hard to imagine that change. And hence, they think that the difference is based on principle rather than lack of time.
18,394 views 69 replies
Reply #26 Top
I would too. I think Integer has the key. Right or wrong, perception is what often counts as reality.

I think some of the more articulate people (I wish Plastic were here) like Integer could really put it in black and white in a rational way that would make sense. How did Shoggot, for instance, go from being an Admin of WinCustomize (yes, when we launched WC, there were 4 admins - me, shoggot, alexandrie, and l0c. l0c left for creative differences but very amicably, shoggot said he didn't have time so t-man and migeleto took over those 2 spots, both Stardock people which changed the direction of the site since all major changes are implemented based on a VOTE by the admins/moderators) to saying we're "Evil"? The first time I knew jier was unhappy with us was in a news item about the skin primer in which he compared me with Sam J of eFront - right out of the blue.

People do things for reasons normally. There is something in the way Stardock does things that rubs a certain percentage (it's all about percentages) the wrong way. I have often written this off as negative interpretation since I've not seen an articulate explanation (even Shoggot didn't substantiate his reasons for saying Stardock is "evil" with any facts).

That's a seperate issue from the freeware vs. payware discussion we're having here though. This issue applies across the entire spectrum of software (games, applications, utilities, etc.).
Reply #27 Top
Jafo - you seem to be misinterpreting what I am saying. "mysterious references", "often proffered as a secret justification" - wrong. I know of practices that I find distasteful, but this is not top secret, it's freely available to all - and I have only mentioned this once in a heated debate back at DA, not "often" as you claim. I did not "raise it again" - all I said in the above post was that I have an issue with Stardock's methods of selling/promoting their software, I did not claim to have confidential information that will bring Stardock to it's knees - you are the one implying this, and you are the one that brought it up.

Do you really think it would do any good us getting together on ICQ? - we seem to be disagreeing far too much as it is, and with you being a friend of Brads, you are honour-bound to stick by his company.
If you still want a chat - let me know
Reply #28 Top
Without knowing what those things are, how can we correct the things that rub you the wrong way?
Reply #29 Top
Integer...yes I do still want a chat.
I enjoy talking to my friends...[and I do include you in that....my only issue with you is your change of name...confused the crap out of this old fogey for ages... ].
When I like to spout opinions and attitudes, I try to be in possession of as many facts as possible, or at least everyone's interpretation of the facts.
It's why I spend an inordinate amount of time on the various boards.
Horrifyingly, I read each and every single post to even the longest threads, because It is the only polite thing to do...to afford them as much heed and respect as I expect of them. {I rarely get it, but I expect it].

I'm not all that sure that I'm that much of a friend of Brad's.....I DO have his link on ICQ but can't say that I've even spoken to him on it. I probably communicate directly with you more than Brad.
What I CAN say, however, is that I respect him, and what he has done to and for the skinning 'community', and find it personally difficult to have an opposing stance against him...[OK, so sometimes I think he has a slightly blinkered devotion to America and its role in world affairs, but that's fair, equitable, and nothing to do with skinning or this site, anyway].
He claims he is 'old'. I DO, however take issue with that....cos it makes me 'ancient'...

As for 'honour-bound to stick by the company', I'm hoping that I reached my position here for qualities other than being an 'honour-bound sticker to the company', otherwise I was promoted erroneously. Being a member/employee of Stardock is not a pre-requisite for becoming an admin/wizop, many of those at that 'level' have no such connection.
My only link to Stardock is the account/credit card info I sent to contribute to Wincustomize.com in order to purchase CD compilations and Tee-shirts....
Reply #30 Top
OK - it seems I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. Here's my take on it (and remember - thats exactly what it is - MY take on it)

Stardock used to monitor the internet, don't know if they still do, but they did. I don't just mean check out a few pages here and there, I mean _monitor_. Everywhere that Stardock is mentioned, someone will turn up, gauranteed - why? Is it really so important? There seems to be an obsession with statistics, facts, figures - the need to know everything. It's mentioned in another thread here that they monitor all skin sites, again, in great depth, knowing every statistic from any given day/week etc..again - why? We all know how much people dislike the "big brother" attitude, well this is what comes across. I'll admit that it's not illegal, or immoral, but is it really nesseccary? It sends out the wrong message to start with.

Then theres this:-

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=szKOOHwDBHA.1912%40prospero.stardock.com&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Ddesktopx%2Bcnet%2Bbrad%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D3%26selm%3DszKOOHwDBHA.1912%2540prospero.stardock.com

(I have no idea if that link is going to come out ok)
This is you, Brad, asking your own registered users to visit CNET and vote for your software. Sure, you put across reasons for doing so, but they are null - all the reasons you give apply to every piece of software on CNET, not just your own. I also note that you didn't specifically ask for a positive vote - but what other vote would you expect from your registered users that frequent your newsgroups? The intentions are obvious, and damaging. It not only promotes your product, but in turn harms any competing products to yours, including the independent developer who you know I am a fan of supporting.
Then theres things like the skin primer. I'm sure most here will say that its a well written guide to the newbie, I expect that. However, with your other actions taken into consideration, it could also be claimed that it's simply a promotional tactic. It is, after all, aimed at the newbies - and most of the latter part is simply promoting windowblinds. If I'm being cynical, I could also point out the featured section here. You say this site is also aimed at newbies - the last featured app was convergence, and it was for many months I believe. Now it's WinXPSkins. Ok, newbie comes along "Ooh look, WinXP skins, I can get a new theme for my WindowsXP" - what does he find? I'll admit, that one may be a bit extreme, but hey, we've been discussing how your viewpoint can change your perception right?
My last point is aimed more at Brad than Stardock, and that is whats been called "ramming your products down peoples throats". Don't take this as an insult Brad, but you must admit to taking every opportunity to push your products on the (many) boards that you frequent. The TGSoft issue was a good example of this. Every time there was any publicity regarding it, you were there making claims etc.. that it doesn't do this, and windowblinds does this much better. It appeared you felt threatened by it, and were trying to discredit it in any way, whilst also promoting windowblinds.
Things like this only serve to make Stardock look bad, and divide the skinning "community" - as it has. Are you with Brad or against? It seem there is no in-between.....

Well, these are my feelings - I'm sure you all have your own, feel free to tell me, this isn't me ranting at Stardock - it's me responding to a request. I really didn't want to do it, but it seemed I had been backed into a corner. I dont claim that everything here is how you should see things, but it _is_ how I see things, be it biased or not. Some of the things here will seem trivial to you, but when they are all added together, surely you can see how some people might be affected.

I think now I will find out who the are the mature peole here and who isn't
Reply #32 Top
"This is you, Brad, asking your own registered users to visit CNET and vote for your software. Sure, you put across reasons for doing so, but they are null - all the reasons you give apply to every piece of software on CNET, not just your own. I also note that you didn't specifically ask for a positive vote - but what other vote would you expect from your registered users that frequent your newsgroups? The intentions are obvious, and damaging. It not only promotes your product, but in turn harms any competing products to yours, including the independent developer who you know I am a fan of supporting."

I think that was a measure to counter votes by the usual cnet visitor... Don't tell me you haven't seen them.

User: sfdfsfs
Rating: *
Comments: booga booga!

User: Eye own joo!
Rating: *
Comments: It sux and will kill your hard drive!!

Asking experienced users to vote objectively is hardly asking for positive promotion.

"Then theres things like the skin primer. I'm sure most here will say that its a well written guide to the newbie, I expect that. However, with your other actions taken into consideration, it could also be claimed that it's simply a promotional tactic. It is, after all, aimed at the newbies - and most of the latter part is simply promoting windowblinds. If I'm being cynical, I could also point out the featured section here. You say this site is also aimed at newbies - the last featured app was convergence, and it was for many months I believe. Now it's WinXPSkins. Ok, newbie comes along "Ooh look, WinXP skins, I can get a new theme for my WindowsXP" - what does he find? I'll admit, that one may be a bit extreme, but hey, we've been discussing how your viewpoint can change your perception right?"

I'm sure Stardock would have no problem including other forms of XP skins (such as visual styles) if TGT hadn't started taking pot shots at WB and even Brad himself from the get-go. Surely you remember their interview at DA.

"My last point is aimed more at Brad than Stardock, and that is whats been called "ramming your products down peoples throats". Don't take this as an insult Brad, but you must admit to taking every opportunity to push your products on the (many) boards that you frequent. The TGSoft issue was a good example of this. Every time there was any publicity regarding it, you were there making claims etc.. that it doesn't do this, and windowblinds does this much better. It appeared you felt threatened by it, and were trying to discredit it in any way, whilst also promoting windowblinds."

1. TGT's reps did everything they could to misrepresent WB's capabilities.

2. One of their reps even called Brad (by name, he didn't refer to Stardock the company, he said "Brad Wardell") "paranoid" simply because Brad took the time to defend his product after it was slandered all over the community by people who hadn't even used it. (Remember when Stardock forced a certain sitwe to remove itslinks to warez versions of SD's products? That's how that site's regulars retaliated, by getting behind Styles XP and dragging WB through the mud, often with no evidence upon which to build their arguments.)

"Things like this only serve to make Stardock look bad, and divide the skinning "community" - as it has. Are you with Brad or against? It seem there is no in-between....."

I don't see anyone here forcing people to choose sides. Except maybe the armchair demagogues at Custo, who insist on lumping anyone with a kind word to say about Brad or Stardock as a "Stardock kid."

"Well, these are my feelings - I'm sure you all have your own, feel free to tell me, this isn't me ranting at Stardock - it's me responding to a request. I really didn't want to do it, but it seemed I had been backed into a corner. I dont claim that everything here is how you should see things, but it _is_ how I see things, be it biased or not. Some of the things here will seem trivial to you, but when they are all added together, surely you can see how some people might be affected.

I think now I will find out who the are the mature peole here and who isn't."

If I didn't know you better I'd say that's flame bait

Wait, I actually DON'T know you... Uh... Nice to meet you
Reply #33 Top
Integer that was very well written

now where is crae and that popcorn? oh shoot he is sleeping again!
Reply #34 Top
Thanks, Integer....now I see your point of view...just means that I still want to talk, though...
I prefer more 'immediate' modes of discussion...that way threads and trains of thought don't get hijacked...
Reply #35 Top
Im not going to get dragged into a debate with you about each individaul point Firestorm, I was simply answering a request, I mentioned several times that this was simply my point of view, and expect you to have yours.

Nice to meet you too
Reply #36 Top
btw the only thing I really see in you Brad is a VERY motivated business man who also enjoys his job which happens to be in the business of skinning, I stopped trying to figure you out past that a long time ago...
(I have come to find out that you always seem fair)
Interesting though to watch how other ppl percieve you constantly
(Jafo can you spell check that percieve word?)
hehe
Reply #37 Top
I agree with integer on the Ramming point when it's associated with the TGT Soft Issue. Also Brad can have a sharp tounge and not seem to realize it, especially when defending something that he is passionate about. The rest is just rediculas.

I think the entire issue is more related to the demise of the origional skinz.org than anything else though..

lean back and think with me...

Wb is at version 1.x Dx is still in beta, Skinz.org is THE skinning site. Everynew verison of WB is or beta of any stardock product is listed as big news at skinz.. Every one is for the most part happy...

Skinz dies.....

Wincusto rises and along with it comes Winxp and all the hype.. WB gets the Windows stamp of approval.(it's now a commercial product for the average joe instead of a hobby for a few)

Stardock now has a suite of desktop customization software and a development schedule that now freware author can compete with..

Stardock also has one of the 2 premier windows customization website that is getting publicity all over the internet and even from the evil M$..

Stardock is now the only skinning empire and currently there is no competetion... There fore it must be evil..

If skinz had nerver died and Wincusto had never risen then we would have all celebrated when the skinz.org new post revealed that WB 3 was windows certified and this conversation would not exist. (the site wouldn't even be here)

Stardock is a strange company, they run off the requests of the customer therefore they are driven to excell without direct competetion.


Though I would like to see some.....



Just a few random thoughts from TasT
Reply #38 Top
no way Jafo! I want to interupt and hijack this thread and stuff while you guys talk... hehe
Reply #39 Top
'perceive', Doreen...Spell checker

Repeat after me..."I before E, except after C"....
Reply #40 Top
I wish I would have heard that in my English class years ago maybe it would have saved me some face over the years! sheesh
Reply #41 Top
Thanks for taking the time to post that Integer. And thanks Firestorm for providing a good response.

I'll write a full response later. One thing about TGTSoft though - not only did they personally call me names. But they use fake users. And got caught. He got caught on Usenet bashing me personally under an alias. They got caught because his IP address was the same as TGTSoft. They finally admitted to it. But that's exactlyt he type of tactic that's been bugging us. That since August they've been trashing us on-line and everytime we defend ourselves or point out the errors in their statements, a half dozen brand new "anonymous" users would show up and start attacking to sway general public opinion. Of course, that was after months of bashing on Usenet, a site that went up and attacked our skins and said WB skin authors basically suck, and numerous posts spreading false info on how WB works.

Heck, go to their site right now and look at how they seem to imply that WB doesn't support things like Cleartype or high resolution (high DPI) graphics and what not (not as bad now as it was earlier it used to be more apparent that htey were implying that WB didn't support these things).

But many people on DA only saw part of it and of course they didnt' see anyone officially from TGTSoft posting. One thing you can, we at least come on as ourselves and take our lumps.

Anyway, the point there being that we got a raw deal. We got attacked and attacked and attacked for months culminating in that DA interview and then after that with fake users on Usenet and on our own internal news server (which they got caught doing in both cases and this can be found on dejanews).

Here's the link if you want to see one of these:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=1&selm=ur9TX3ecBHA.2208%40tkmsftngp02

Reply #42 Top
TasT...it's not that easy...at the time of the skinz.org demise, general awareness was very much of a commercial company doing 'bad things' to the skinning community....that company was eFront.
With the death of eFront and skinz.org [mk.1] too, focus of animosity simply shifted to fill the vacuum.

Everyone needs something to complain about.

The problem with opinions is that everyone has one [but only mine is correct]...
Reply #43 Top
oh no! Brad is going to write a "Full response"
run... hehe

g'night you guys my eyes hurt
Reply #44 Top
I wasn't trying to drag you into a debate, Integer. But I wanted to reply to your points, again, from my own perspective. No hostility was intended
Reply #45 Top
point taken Jafo...
Reply #46 Top
jusss one more thing though...

Free apps are free therefore who can really complain or put them down cuz they are free!

Pay for Apps cost money so it better be all that plus a bag of chips! and if you don't have the money to buy it though you really want it then why not bash it?

to be expected really Brad
Reply #47 Top
I see this same thing coming at John and Eric soon too, Themebar was great! while it was free

but now it tis a diff story for them guys too
Reply #48 Top
Perception is everything.
I remember when I was a newbie, over at old skinz, I thought Frogboy was a Stardock employee who was getting paid to go around on the websites/newsgroups and promote the Stardock products. I thought it was amusing.
But later, I found out that he was actually the CEO and I was getting annoyed that he was pushing his products so much. It annoyed me so much that I kept looking for alternatives for Windowblinds. There was none, other than Customeyes, and I got into a long argument with him about it (the first of a long history, hehehe!).
Then Skinz died and here came this site. Still with the same anoyance, I thought oh great, now he wants his site to replace skinz.org so he can promote all his products as much as he wants to.

But then, some months ago, I had a change of hearts. So, yes, indeed, I still think he's overdoing it, I still think he could just leave things alone and not take personnaly every critic made to one of Stardock's products. Everybody's read my posts here and elsewhere about it. But I now take it more lightly. I've come to tell to myself: So what? Why should it bother me? Wincustomize is a good site, with nice people, nice admins. It doesn't have any annoying popups like other skins sites. But it's true that it still has too great of a Stardock influence, but I believe they are working on that at the moment, which is great news to my ears.
To come back to Brad, I have come to realise he is just a VERY passionate person. ABout his prodcuts, yes, but also about everything else. And I can't criticize him about that, because I'm the same way. That's why our debates clash at times, and that's why I was his nightmare at times.
So, in the end, I don't take it so seriously anymore. When I see that I feel he's making a fool of himself, I just send him a friendly email, which he always answers. And that's one thing I can say about Brad, he always answers his emails; that can't be said about everybody. I have send emails to other site's admins, and never got even an acknowledgement.
No, Brad is a passionate person, but he's a good person. He's not evil, and there are no conspiration.

My 1 cent.
Reply #49 Top
Paxx...'is no conspiracy'.....Spell checker
Reply #50 Top
Paxx, thanks for the post. Your perspective shreds light on a lot of things.

As Stardock has grown, I've discovered a real problem in myself - I've never had a "real" job.

That's because my job came out of my hobby. I've never had to distinguish having a job and having a hobby because they've always been the same thing. Whatever cool computery stuff I've gotten into I've tried to find a way to make it so that I can do it full time.

Consider what Stardock does: We make video games and desktop enhancements. How are they related to one another? They're not. We just released Elves, Inc. Why did we make that? Because it was fun.