Is it really free vs. non-free?

from WinCustomize Forums
I was thinking about something last night while going through some of my game posting archives.

The issue isn't so much about free vs. non-free. It's really an issue of time vs. no time.

Much of the arguments on both sides boil down to very different perspectives on the value of time.

When you're a kid (i.e. a teen) you have all the time in the world. You may not think you do when you're a teen but you really do. I remember even in college thinking I was "swamped" but I did, afterall, write a commercial software product that went on to bring in millions of dollars between working 3 other jobs and taking Electrical Engineering classes full time. In essence, I had time.

Now, being "old" (just turned 30), time is more important to me than money.

To use an unrelated example:
Most strategy games come with "packs" that contain extra maps and sell for $20. These packs get flamed by some people like crazy because one can find plenty of good maps for free if they dig for them.

But that is exactly the point. Someone like me is not willing to "dig". If I can get all the maps I might want for a favorite game for just $20 instantly, then I'm set.

Convenience, short for time savings, outstrips the value of saving some nominal cost.

That's where the paid skin debates come in. There are lots of excellent free skins out there. There are some excellent free suites out there as well. But for someone who's really busy and wants to have a complete, unified look, $10 is nothing and to get a complete unified suite of 20 different skins is an incredible bargain.

This extends to software as well. Sure, you can hunt for a good freeware alternative but when I need something done, I'm going ot go with whatever I find first that works well. We paid $500 for Webtrends even though there are plenty of free log analysers out there. We just didn't feel like fooling with them. Same for our mail server. We paid for one even though there are lots of free ones. This is one reason why Linux has failed as a desktop. Because the bulk of users out there aren't teens with massive time on their hands. THey just want to sit down and get the thing to work with minimum effort and time.

So I think much of the debates on "Freeware" vs "payware" is really a debate of which you value - time or money. For most adults, $10 or $20 is so nominal that it is effectively free AS LONG AS IT'S CONVENIENT TO PAY.

But when you're a teen, it's hard to imagine that change. And hence, they think that the difference is based on principle rather than lack of time.
18,391 views 69 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm sorry, I don't have the time to read your post. Its too long
Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'd have to disagree (again). You're implying that anyone who appreciates freeware, is a teen - Im a 31 yr old, with a good job that allows me a few of life's luxuries. My time is precious, but so are my principles
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top
That's not the case at all, Integer.

In fact, that's not even remotely what I was getting at.

There is nothing principled about freeware (having been responsible for a lot of freeware over the years) in my opinion.

The typical adult just doesn't make any distinction between "free" and $20. If there is a free option available that is just as convenient, they'll use it. But if it requires spending hours to configure or do it, then that $20 seems cheap. Hence the example of the free Starcraft maps vs. paying $20 and getting 50 or 100 professional quality maps. Yea, you can get free maps if you dig through all the crap out there but for $20 you're done. There's nothing principled about wasting half a day sifting through "free" maps.

A teen TENDS to have more time on their hands to spend sifting through 10 map download sites for a handful of decent maps. To them, they can't understand why anyone would pay $20 for maps when they can get them for free on the net.

Linux advocates, who also tend to be teens or college student, maek the same argument. Why pay for Windows when, with a "little" effort you can get equivalents.
Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
not a teen necessarily, but someone with more time on their hands. i feel it all comes down to why you use a computer and how you like to use it.

it's like cars. the vast overwhelming majority of car buyers today (and probably since the 60's) just want a vehicle that works for them. they have certain wants, such as performance, economy, room, etc. and they just want to buy a car that fits their bill and drive off. they don't want to have to futz with it -at all-. if they could get away with avoiding oil changes, wiper blades and new tires, they'd love it.

there are a few who want to customize a few things, but not many. these few are usually content to change out the stereo and that's it. fewer still add things like custom interior items - steering wheel cover, floormats - minor stuff.. simple.

then you start to enter the realm of the 'enthusiast.' there are even -fewer- of these. still enough to base industries on, but compared to the total number of car owners, an incredibly tiny number. power amps and giant subwoofers. custom seats, like a nice recaro or sparco. custom tires. custom body paint.

then finally, the deep end, where people are re-doing the power train, suspension, etc.. the hardware.

it's the same for computers. exactly the same. starting with people who add on things like winamp to replace wmp, all the way down to those who pull out windows and replace it with linux.

now.. how many people do you know in their teens who have an aftermarket stereo in their car? people in their 20's? 30's? the number keeps getting smaller. of course, there are still people in their 60's and 70's pulling out engines and reworking suspensions, but the numbers of customizers and the level of customization they're into starts out small and drops with age.

as far as it applies to freeware, the general assumption of the mass of computer users is that freeware will involve more fiddling and time. for some, this is part of the draw of it. they enjoy the fiddling for many though, they're willing to pay so it does what they want, right off the showroom floor.

Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think that for the crowd that think Stardock's evil and all that jazz, it IS an issue of free vs. pay. For me, it's simply an issue of convenience, as Brad said.

- There are skinning programs in the freeware realm, but they're not worth it when compared with what $20 get me (WB3 and access to almost 1,500 skins).

- Sure, I could use Litestep, but I don't wanna spend time trying to get a theme to work. With NextStart and DesktopX, it's plug and play.

- I can use the GIMP (I do sometimes), but PSP7 is easier to use, its interface more intuitive, and gives the grossly overpriced Photoshop a serious run for its money. Not a bad way to spend $100.

- I'm trying to break into the industry as a game developer. When I surveyed the tools available to garage developers like me, I saw two types of tools:

* Free, open source engines like Genesis and Crystal Space. Nice if you have a team of crack C++ programmers to handle the beast.

* Payware like Conitec's Acknex engine. A fully working and debugged Half Life-quality engine with its own level and model editors, plus a very flexible scripting language. Guess which way I went?

The thing is, if I can get quality freeware, I'll give it a try. But I don't have time to mess around with software that requires me to compromise. I'm willing to pay for the tool that gets the job done and causes me the fewest headaches. Or the skin that pleases my eye the most
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think migellito makes a valid case- at least part of the freeware market, and the customizing-in-general market, is made up of people who just want to "fiddle" with it. It sounds good to be all principled and idealistic about free software for the masses, yadayada, but I am too old and cynical for that - bottom line is I _like_ tearing up and redesigning my Litestep shell; not because I'm improving the genre, or providing something for others, but because it's fun to tweak it, to see if I can get that little extra "oomph" out of the system. The ratio of gain to time spent is lousy, sure, but it's still a lot of fun.
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Migellito, as you are so fond of analogies, here is another one for you.......

Freeware: A suit that your uncle made for you, probably from some old drapes. It never fits quite right, but if you pin the jacket at the back, and you don't do too much while wearing it, you'll get by.

Payware: A designer suit that fits perfectly, and although it was a little more expensive, they also had shirts and ties that matched perfectly.
And you can dance all night in it and not look like a dork.
Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Boxxi, that analogy may be a bit insulting to some freeware authors, as there are some freeware apps that are just as good as payware equivalents.
Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
My analogy was not meant to be insulting, more.....comedic. If you knew me better you would know that.
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Thanks for the follow up Boxxi...I thought that may have been the case, but the way things have been lately you never know.
Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I suppose it also comes down to what kind of app we're talking about. By definition, we are "tinkerers" - we like to change things, take them apart, see how they work, change them and rebuild them. This takes time, but it's our hobby - we make the time because we enjoy it. Our age doesn't come into it, people always make time for their hobby.
The free vs not free (software) argument seems (to me) to be in peoples heads - there is no such argument, or at least, I haven't seen it. There's been plenty (too much) to say on the skins issue, but not so much software. I use both freeware and payware, with no qualms about either, but if there are two similar apps, I'd use the freeware option - someone has spent a lot of time coding it, then they just hand it out for free - how often does that happen in real-life? Everyone values their own time and money - some also value the time and effort thats been put into something done by others, then freely distributed with goodwill.


At the end of the day - all I want to do is support good old "Joe Coder", after all - he supports us. Recently, (on this site) this has lead to me being called "parasite, free beer campaigner", being told to "get a life, get a job, get of my lazy ass" and labelled as someone who has made no contribution to the scene.

Could someone please explain the logic in that to me?

(this is a reasoned question - not a rant )
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The skin suites that have come out recently are great, and no doubt worth the money that's being asked for them with the amount of work that went into them, but I'm not 100% convinced that charging for skins is a particularly viable market. The first thing that stops me from shelling out the cash is the fact that there's not skins for all of the things that I use, and plenty of skins for things that I don't use.

You use the argument of convinience, but in some cases, e.g. DesktopX, that argument doesn't stand. Yes, your skins for WinAmp and WindowBlinds may be the same, but unless you happen to run all of the same apps as the author, and have the same preference for how you open them, the DesktopX theme is useless without some serious time spent tweaking it.

The real thing that puts doubt into my mind though is the sheer quantity of free skin suites out there. Pixtudio and Logika are both beautifully designed, and cover a wide range of apps, but are they really that much better than Sputnik, Soundtox, Heavy Equipment etc?
If a designer put out a suite that struck me as being in a different league altogether from the free skin suites, and happened to fully cover the range of skinning/skinned apps that I use, I'd be happy to shell out the cash, but at this point, the non-free suites don't offer me anything in terms of quality (imho) or convenience that I can't get from free skins.
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The issue isn't so much about free vs. non-free. It's really an issue of time vs. no time
by Admin Frogboy - 12/11/2001 11:25:57 AM

no it's not about time, it is about money, most ppl feel when money comes into the picture things will surely change, (and they are absolutely right!)

BUT

nothing can change that, cept the warriors of Free stuff...
Look at Netzero I think they have even begun to charge now for their internet services right? was just a matter of time.

Now, being "old" (just turned 30), time is more important to me than money.
by Admin Frogboy - 12/11/2001 11:25:57 AM

you're old at 30? oh boy! God help you Brad...
(go workout or somethin) hehe

and you will find time "should" be more important then money...
(though I have been known to waste both very easily) hehe
Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top
and I'm wasting time again...
/me runs back to work
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
No, not my view of it. I don't think it's a matter of time either. Most people still clean up their house themselves, do the dishes, etc. when it could save a whole lot of time to just hire a maid.
It's a matter of money. You have it or you don't. Or more likely, you want a number of things, but you can't buy everything. What do you choose to spend your money on? I don't believe in credit (other than my morgage), I owe $0.
But the main factor, more than time, is quality and service. If I am going to choose to buy a product, where there are equivalent ones for free, that program better be 100% bug free. And I better get pretty darn good service to fix whatever problem I may encounter. With a free app, I'm forgiving, sure what do I expect for a free program? But not so for programs I pay. Same goes for skins. I haven't purchased any of their skins, so I can't speak; but I would expect them to have tested their skins thoroughly, have had them beta tested by a number of people running different types of machines, etc. Money isn't easy, it's the price you have to pay to make money.
Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Doreen:

Integer: I haven't seen (other than JayG) any comments directed specifically at you and even JayG's comments that were directed at you didn't indicate that you are a "parasite" or anything like that. I don't see why you would assume that those who, like me, dislike the "free beer" mentality are directing their comments your way. As I've said elsewhere, I certainly don't see you as part of that group. It's the people who complain and complain but never contribute that bug me. You have contributed a great deal.

AJ: I've seen the numbers, paid suites are doing well. Here's somethign that seems obvious but really is a leap of thought still - it's all in percentages. A certain percentage of people will do anything. WinCustomize gets 700,000+ unique people visiting each month. If you're putting out a skin suite that costs money and 700,000 people are exposed to it, some percent, even small will buy it.

A good target would be 0.1%. That would be 700 purchases per month. X $10 would be $7,000. That's $84,000 per year. The current problem is purely one of distribution/exposure.

I can say donations don't work though. The WinCustomize CD has generated more revenue than all the donations to Trillian so far. Far more actually.

The point being, if you charge for something, it's purely a matter of getting it in front of enough people. Software, good software, can expect to get between .5% and 2%. I can pretty much tell you how much money Hoverdesk or NeXTStart make in a day if I have their download numbers just as they could do the same with WindowBlinds.

I'm going to follow this up with another post. Stay tuned.
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top
So at this point, there is enough people asserting that it isn't time that's the issue, that it is money.

So the next question is, what do you think causes the hostility towards "payware"? What causes someone like Shoggot to publicly say "Stardock is evil" and having plenty of people nod in agreement. What then makes people see those who charge for software or skins as "sell outs" or "greedy"? I pointed out on customize (which seems to be down right now at least from here) that nobody seems to have a problem with them making money on banner ads and pop up ads. So the hostility to money making seems to be focused on making money in specific ways.

What do you think is the source of this hostility and what can be done to lessen it?
Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top
To me it's pretty clear. Some people fear that when good skinners see that others are starting to money out of teir skins, that they will all decide to start charging and that we'll be stuck with amateur skins.
A legitimate worry, but I don't think it will happen. There has been artists selling their wallpapers for ages and there are still ots of quality wallpapers for free.
Reply #19 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Purrrr... I just want to say..Happy Birthday, Brad!

I'll leave the rest of it for you guys to figure out
Reply #20 from WinCustomize Forums Top
as far as the source - when someone puts time and money into something (yes, developing software takes money.. it might not be as obvious, but it does) then gives it away for free, many people see this as a noble act of selfless giving. i guess i'd pretty much have to agree. i think they generally also attach a lot of assumed motivations to it, such as 'for the good of the community' or 'to further the cause of small developers' or a dozen other things. well, maybe or maybe not. there's no way to say, unless they say so themselves.

many people think in binary terms. opposites. for example.. this program is free and given away for the 'good of the community.' therefore -this- program that's -not- free is -not- for the 'good of the community.' i know this seems pretty simplistic, but i think if you really observe people you'll find this is pretty much the case. it's basically all about assumptions and pre-conceptions.
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think the issue with Stardock isn't whether or not they sell their software, but how. Well, mine is anyhow - but I'm not getting into that here
Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm probably way off base here and if I am so be it. I've been a user of skins and frequenter of skin sites for about three years now. I've only been actively posting and making minor contributions for about the past year, but am pretty familiar with all the players/thinkers on both sides of this issue (Brad, Shog, JC, treetog, alex, jier, 10c, jesh). It's always seemed to me that whenever these nazi, evil or moneygrubber issues come up that it's petty jealousy. Most of these people came into this scene around the same time. Some have become successful turning skinning into both a hobby and as a profession, others have tried and failed. It's not the way that you do it that matters most to these people...it's who is doing it. Brad is and always will be the biggest target because he's been most successful. As long as that's the case...Stardock, and all others who are aligned with them will always be "evil" to them.

Like I said...I could be way off base and underqualified to make the jealousy assertion, but that's the way it's always looked to me.

When they refuse to listen to logic and make any assertions that back up they're ludicrous claims (example: Shog refusing to admit that he was wrong about the whole VDE/Desktop X issue), it makes me believe that there is more at issue than freeware/payware philosophizing.
Reply #24 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think that anyone who claims that payware is evil is not taking a very mature point of view on the matter. Free Enterprise is good, m'kay? People have the right to charge for their service no matter what it may be. Charging for it won't always be a success, but it's the right of the author to do so.

I would be far more likely to pay for a subscription service that gives me a login to Pixtudio.com to download skin suites (hopefully a much wider range than is currently available), in much the same way I pay my OD subscription. Frogboy, you are right about the donation thing, it simply isn't effective, but personally, if I firmly support a product or a site, I'm happy (as I have done on wincustomize) to purchase merchandise in order to help out.

I'm glad to hear that the paid skins are doing so well, as I have nothing but the utmost respect for Treetog/Nuvem/Alexandrie, but at this point in time, the only skins from the suite I'd use are WinAmp and Trillian (if it's there, which thinking about it...I don't believe it is). That said, this doesn't offer great value to me.
Reply #25 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Integer, your mysterious references to your "issue with Stardock isn't whether or not they sell their software, but how" has often intrigued me. It has often been proffered as a secret justification for your stance against Stardock and/or Wincustomize.com.

Since you are not 'getting into that here', why, then did you raise it yet again?

ICQ 59227163 ....I'd love to hear all the goss...