Dealing with Vasari Kortul first

from Sins Forums

I'm playing Sins of a Solar Empire vanilla (i.e. no Diplomacy, no Entrenchment, but with the latest patches). The games I play are generally 1v1 on small or at most medium maps; I have however played one 2v2 game and ran into the same problem. These games are against another human player. I tend to play Advent, although I can play other races as well. I'm quite new to Sins of a Solar Empire multiplayer; I've played less than 10 games.

So the problem is my opponent picks a Kortul first - and the stupid Kortul won't die. I could have quite a large fleet (like 10+ Illuminators and my own capital ship) focusing on the Kortul, yet Power Surge ensures that it 1) won't die 2) if it does take a lot of damage it can get out and 3) it's still shooting, so my own ships take mega damage in the meantime. Here're two of the games I've played against this strategy so far.

1. Medium map, 2v2. We spawned next to each other so we fought each other, with our allies generally staying out of our business. I go Progenitor first and fast-tech to Illuminators. He goes Kortul first and fast-techs to Enforcers. I colonize faster than him before we run into each other. It was still early-game at that point, but I had more Disciples. He fled, leaving the Kortul behind. All my Disciples + my Progenitor kept shooting at him but he didn't die. He didn't even take damage. Eventually my Progenitor takes enough damage for me to break off. He breaks off too. Some time later he comes back as a solo Kortul this time, harassing my planets. I leave some units to fend him off, except THEY get fended off instead. The unkillable Kortul won this game for my opponent.

2. Small map, 1v1. I get a Halcyon and rush a second capital ship, another Halycyon, massing Bombers and Aeria Drone Hosts. Again when we first meet he flees. This time the fleet had enough damage to hurt the Kortul, albeit not enough, and the stupid Kortul makes off with another rearguard action. I decide to push my advantage and attacked one of his planets. I don't know what went wrong from here. I couldn't take out his defense. He gets a heap of Flak frigates and wins. I think I made some mistakes with micro here, letting my fighters and bombers attack his Kortul instead of his buildings, but I'd anticipated the badly-hurt Kortul would have to flee. It didn't; the Kortul still refused to die (he parked it at the edge of the gravity well and I didn't pursue him through the entire well). With my strike craft occupied his ships took out mine.

How do you beat Vasari Kortul first? What do you tech to? All I can think of right now is rushing a second capital ship once I see the Kortul, making it a Radiance to detonate his antimatter - but then with Disruptive Strikes he can disable the Radiance as well. Meanwhile Disruptive Strikes also shuts down the Progenitor. The Halcyon is unaffected, but when I used the Halcyon the Kortul would push up, tank all the Bombers and hit the Halcyon. I can't see any other options, and even this one looks at risk to him rushing another Kortul. I can't see what else to tech to as well. Illuminators are ineffective, but aside from Destras I can't think of anything that would hurt the Kortul enough - and Destras take a long time to tech to.

Strangely enough nobody seems to have mentioned this tactic anywhere, so I don't seem able to just read other topics >_<

Any tips?

strategy
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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Kortuls are cap killers in the extreme

forget LFs (Disciples) and go LRFs (Illuminators) it will require a bit more in tech but they do better against all capital ships, throw in a Radiance in the back area to help with detonate antimatter as a first strike to keep the Kortul on its heals and not be able to use it's Power Surge

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

If it's causing you major grief, use a Radiance with detonate antimatter.  That will shut down power surge (at least until disruptive strikes shuts you down, so ensure you have the firepower to make it stick).  The one risk is that the Radiance is absolutely the wrong choice of capital ship if your opponent is leading Vulkoras or Skirantra, so unless you're psychic this will have to be your second capital ship.


I could have quite a large fleet (like 10+ Illuminators and my own capital ship)
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That is not a large fleet at all; that's actually a very small fleet, and I wouldn't engage a high combat-value capital ship like the Kortul with such a small force.  High combat value capital ships are risky to engage with small fleets like this, and the Kortul is perhaps the most deadly of all.

Your only real option is to lead with Halcyon against Vasari.  Focus on his frigates and try to isolate the Kortul.  You can take it down if your fleet is large enough and it doesn't have support, but don't even try if it's got backup.  I only attack capital ships when I know I can make it count.


I couldn't take out his defense. He gets a heap of Flak frigates and wins. I think I made some mistakes with micro here, letting my fighters and bombers attack his Kortul instead of his buildings, but I'd anticipated the badly-hurt Kortul would have to flee
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He probably had a repair platform here.  A single overseer would also make your attempts to take down the Kortul futile.

Now, against massed flak, you want to be very careful with strike craft.  You should probably be phasing in some disciples or destras.  Vasari sentinels are particularly nasty and you need to hit them with the right units.  You should probably try to stay one step ahead of the enemy; just presume he's going to counter your carriers so your own counter-measures come on the field in time to beat his.

Micro is particularly critical with strike craft.


The big problem is that the Advent illuminator just isn't very effective against capital ships.  Vasari and TEC can mass up a chunk of LRF to beat back the Kortul with sheer firepower, but since the illuminator bug fix the illum really can't manage that well.  This leaves you with very few options, and this is affecting Advent's ability to counter more than just the Kortul.


Strangely enough nobody seems to have mentioned this tactic anywhere, so I don't seem able to just read other topics
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I love the Kortul opener, it's a great strategy, but the bottom line is that it's still a second tier strategy compared to the carrier opener.  Still very good if you know what your doing, but not a top-pick strategy.  I personally love it, the player you fought clearly did as well, but it's really more along-side the Vulkoras rush as something that's most powerful if your opponent doesn't see it coming or doesn't know how to counter it.

Object Desktop - Get all of our enhancement utilities in one suite
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Just to affirm what Darvin3 is talking about with illuminators:

I don't know much about the history if the patches given that I have only played since Diplomacy came out, but I have found the early game of the Advent to be very limited. You can either go carrier cap + disciple spam or rush to illuminators. But the illum rush seems underwhelming. 10 Illuminatos will not get it done. But often by the time you have 10 illuminators the Vasari opponent has 20+ assailants. I recently flipped to the dark side and between Skirantrra Carriers with Scramble Bombers (totally OP, the devs have to change this one imo) and the level 1 LRM + the quality of sentinels. 

I use to fear the Kortul as an Advent, now I crush them with my Skirantra + LRM.

That being said Halcyon + lots of illums is the only way if you are Advent. But illuminators seem gimped to me.

Its ironic since in mid to late game as Vasari the ratio of LRM to HCs is much higher than as Advent. I am guessing it is the realtive 'weakness' of illuminators that drives me to Destras as an Advent player. Seems unfair they being a level 3 tech and all. Still microing Guardians can get you out of a lot of messes. That being said the Advent still seem weak early game.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I don't know much about the history if the patches given that I have only played since Diplomacy came out
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Basically prior to the release of Diplomacy there was a bug that effectively doubled the illuminator's damage.  It could beat the other LRF without even using its sidebeams, and when it did use its sidebeams it tore them to shreds.  Absolutely a monstrous unit; multiplayer was basically all about sending your money to the nearest Advent ally so he could build more illuminators. 

That being said the Advent still seem weak early game.
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Back in 1.181, the patch prior to what you played, Advent was god.  Their illuminators were scary powerful, but this was just the tip of the iceberg of the Advent powerhouse.  They would rush you with disciples and seekers.  The seekers could easily kill any LRF in your fleet, removing assailants and javelis, giving the Advent disciples free pickings.  Leading that fleet would be two halcyons.  Even if this didn't work, the Advent would bring out the illuminator en-masse and your fleet (which was being pressured by light frigates) would be low on strike craft and flaks to absorb the punishment. 

It was extremely difficult to even survive, let alone beat, a competent Advent player back then.  Vasari in particular had trouble surviving, and as a rule if they started in rush proximity to Advent they would lose if they didn't get a starbase operational on either their own or their enemy's homeworld.  Despite this, many of the top players migrated to the underdog faction and developed powerful Vasari strategies to rival the incredibly overpowered Advent.

Patch 1.19 nerfed both the seeker and the illuminator, essentially killing Advent's standard opener.  Their strength had been entirely based on the overpowered illuminator and the powerful seeker capable of keeping the strongest enemy units off the field.  With those chips removed from play, Advent just couldn't handle a rush, and Vasari strategy is much more than it was in the early days of 1.181.  The result is an Advent faction that just can't compete, and a positively scary Vasari game plan.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Yeah I had noticed that when playing as Advent though I really liked their aesthetics, I was struggling early in MP games. AI games are not relevant since you can always survive long enough and exploit combats around your own starbases and repair bays / defenses to buy yourself enough time to get a large fleet up and then Advent shine. I found though in MP games my only 'strat' was to effectively get lucky with a disciple counter rush and then hope I can get to guardians and destras otherwise it was gg.

Then I switched to Vasari and fell to the dark side. Now there are many options to skewer your opponent (even if they themselves are Vasari).

That being said maybe more people will go underdog with Advent now and develop some new strategies. Still unless the devs balance things better the Advent may always be fighting with one hand behind their back in the early game.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Don't attack kortul if you don't have firepower to kill it. And whatever you do try not to feed it experience. LVL5 kortul can recharge a lot of shields.... But 2 Carrier caps with 3-4 drones all bombers on should be able to do it. once it runs out of AM it will die..... soon  

If you look at late game advent is only race than can compete with vasari fleet.

The problem they have is that they need a lot of research to be able to compete with either race at start. They are underdogs at start unless you are rushing with strategy mentioned above. It still works. Especially against vasari. It needs a lot of micro but....

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

That is not a large fleet at all; that's actually a very small fleet, and I wouldn't engage a high combat-value capital ship like the Kortul with such a small force. High combat value capital ships are risky to engage with small fleets like this, and the Kortul is perhaps the most deadly of all.

Your only real option is to lead with Halcyon against Vasari. Focus on his frigates and try to isolate the Kortul. You can take it down if your fleet is large enough and it doesn't have support, but don't even try if it's got backup. I only attack capital ships when I know I can make it count.
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Well I couldn't possibly field a much larger fleet because there hadn't been time to get a bigger one. I did manage to "isolate" the Kortul - more accurately my opponent did it for me, because he fled with all his frigates except the Kortul. The stupid Kortul then went ahead and pushed my base / sieged my planets and there's nothing I could do about it because I couldn't destroy it. If I go for Destras, I'd have an even smaller fleet (5 labs ...). I don't get it.

Patch 1.19 nerfed both the seeker and the illuminator, essentially killing Advent's standard opener. Their strength had been entirely based on the overpowered illuminator and the powerful seeker capable of keeping the strongest enemy units off the field. With those chips removed from play, Advent just couldn't handle a rush, and Vasari strategy is much more than it was in the early days of 1.181. The result is an Advent faction that just can't compete, and a positively scary Vasari game plan.
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Is it time to change races then?

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Is it time to change races then?
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You can pull off Advent in 1.19, but it's very difficult.  You'd probably have much better luck as TEC or Vasari.

 

I did manage to "isolate" the Kortul - more accurately my opponent did it for me, because he fled with all his frigates except the Kortul.
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Chase after them and counter-attack.  His lone Kortul might bombard some planets (you can use emergency facilities to slow him down), but you can rip up his far more expensive infrastructure and cripple his attempts to build up.  He'll lose this tradeoff, and all the while your fleet is growing while his is getting whittled away.

You can also stop him from taking asteroids with a pack of turrets. 

 

As I said, if the Kortul is proving too much to handle, the Radiance is your solution.  It will completely stop his power surge and let you finish him off.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Well if I assault his planets that early in the game he'd be getting reinforcements easily, may have static defenses and my own reinforcements take quite a while to get there (if they even get there, because the Kortul's flying around my home base). Definitely worried I won't win such a fight. Because the Kortul is bombarding my planets as well, I'd be earning less $$$.

Also what if he doesn't attack my planets but simply follows me around with an invulnerable ship? He'd be taking my experience and stopping me from clearing planets because the Kortul does have a fair bit of firepower, augmented by Power Surge.

I've yet to try a Radiance (I'll do that next time we play a game), but I'm also a bit worried it won't cut the cheese if he gets a second Kortul. Disruptive Strikes sucks, two Disruptive Strikes is even worse  >:( That said he hasn't bothered getting a second capital ship as fast as me in general. I wonder if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

You're right that it's not a foolproof strategy, but the fact is that if you're fighting with a fleet plus capital ship while he's just got a fleet in the early game, you can deal some heavy damage to him.  The big goal is to just buy time until you can smash the Kortul.  It doesn't take that long to build up to fleet sizes of 30 or 40 frigates, you've just got to keep him occupied while you do so and minimize losses.

 

I wonder if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
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It will slow down the rate at which the first capital ship will gain experience, meaning a weaker Kortul and less powerful power surge individually.  Still pretty nice, but not twice as dangerous.