Frogboy Frogboy

Blog: ObjectDock, pizza, and DesktopX 2.2

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Blog: ObjectDock, pizza, and DesktopX 2.2

from WinCustomize Forums

I've been having a ball with ObjectDock Plus. I've got 4 different docks going on my desktop but you can barely tell because I have itty bitty tabs  on 3 of them.  The 4th dock I don't have docked to an edge but instead I have it activate when I put my mouse to the very bottom. The biggest glitch I've run into with it is that I can't drag and drop links to a dock (well I can but they don't work).  What I want to do is have my "favorite" websites as a series of tiny tabs over on the left edge of my screen.  I mostly use Keyboard LaunchPad for getting around my sites (Ctrl-Alt-1 for WinCustomize, 2 for Joeuser.com, 3 for Stardock, 4 for Neowin, and so forth).  But what I want to use the docks for is more "temporary" favorite websites. Ones that I want to check out later when I have more time but know I'll forget but don't want to have permanently in my "favorites" list.

BTW, if you've got a particularly clever ObjectDock Plus setup, take a screenshot and upload it and I'll try to feature some of them in my next WC blog. 

One thing that ObjectDock Plus's availability has brought forward is an issue that affects most shareware developers and that is pricing.  Go to a shareware conference or just hang out with other shareware authors and the topic is sure to come up: Why does the same guy who happily pays $8 to watch "White Chicks" and spend $4 on pop corn or $18 on two pizzas turn around and bitch about paying $15 to $20 for a software product that took an immense amount of effort to create that they'll be able to make use of for years?

What bugged me the most was the idea that because we have had ObjectDock (freeware) available that we somehow have no right to make a plus version.  That somehow we're the greedy ones for wanting to be compensated for years of effort.  Rather than being thankful that we make a free program like ObjectDock used by hundreds of thousands of people, one that we continue to update for free, we get guff for putting out a Plus version.

There were also the people who felt ObjectDock should be part of Object Desktop. I could at least, philosophically, understand where they were coming from. I'm not sure at what point Object Desktop came to equal "All of Stardock's stuff in a single package for $50".  But my view is, anyone who's paid us $50 for Object Desktop is a customer and we're going to listen to their view point a lot more seriously than the kid who's never contributed anything back but feels entitled to call us greedy for making ObjectDock Plus. 

The reason ObjectDock Plus isn't part of Object Desktop is very straight forward: Economics.   Object Desktop has something like a dozen and a half programs in it. For $50. And most of these programs are really quite powerful.. I could go on for hours about how DesktopX should be a $100 product on its own given the things it can do for corporations but we target power users and consumers instead so we have to price it appropriately.  The bottom line is that Object Desktop is a really really good deal.  And it's such a good deal that it's very tough to sustain it even as is at the price it is. 

Personally, and correct me if I'm mistaken, I think half the coolness of Object Desktop is that many of the components get very frequent updates.  If you bought Object Desktop in say 1999, the main components in it have continually been updated in it year after year after year with more components being added over time.  I don't want to name specific products but I suggest checking out other desktop enhancement programs that have come out during that time and note how often they've been updated (or heck, when the last time they were updated).  Meanwhile, we've been cranking on DesktopX, WindowBlinds, WindowFX, IconPackager, and other pieces on a regular basis year after year after year. Heck, wait till you see ObjectBar 2.  And we're working on some other cool new things too. Point being, this coolness is only possible as long as Object Desktop is economically viable. It's not like we're driving around in Porsches or something. Things that don't remain viable end up fading away.

I think at the end of the day the question is simply are people glad we made ObjectDock Plus? Based on the reaction we're seeing, we think yes. If it hadn't been released the way it is, it would never have been made.

Speaking of new stuff, later this Fall we hope to finally come out with the beta of ThinkDesk. This is an entirely new suite of products. Where Object Desktop is about extending your desktop, ThinkDesk is about managing your information.  Pricing will be the same as Object Desktop (though unlike Object Desktop the price will probably go up once it leaves beta). It'll be XP only and we'll be focusing a lot of energy on .NET features.

Meanwhile in Italy, UK, and US where the distributed DesktopX team works, version 2.2 is nearly done.  I think a new beta of it showed up on Object Desktop tonight along with IconX which is now separate (but if you have both installed, the IconX tab will show up in DesktopX). We learned from that WinCustomize poll that lots of people had no idea what IconX was. That needs to change as it's (in my biased opinion) one of the coolest programs on Windows.

So that's all for now. Gotta re-setup my crashed laptop. It's running plain Luna right now! Eeew!

34,153 views 73 replies
Reply #26 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Great fun!

Now running one tabbed dock dedicated to productivity apps and pc utilities, and two non-tabbed docks (1 for directory links, and one for daily links - IE, Nero, WC, Control Panel, My documents, etc.).

No issues with drag-n-drop any link as long as I wait for the little frame and "+" sign to show.

No issues with not holding new settings as long as I use "save theme as" function in OD config.

I do have a similar request as Sept1mus above. I have been unable to produce a vertical non-tabbed dock on the right or left which actually rotates the background source image.

By this I mean that if a background image is created with a grain or any indication of a left to right draw, then this grain or draw remains left to right even when the dock is resized to create a vertical dock.

Would like to request help with this issue, and/or request this be an option without having to create 2 source images.

Love the app, very helpful.
Reply #27 from WinCustomize Forums Top
One thing you fail to mention in your Object Desktop pricing "rant" is that it's a "subscription"...you don't pay $50 and are then entitled to free upgrades of everything for life - you have to renew your subscritption yearly...so it's not like Stardock's revenue stream stops at $50.

Also I agree with dogfacedboy...paying for a beta rubs me the wrong way. I'll more than likely buy OD+ when it's a bona-fide "release", and I'm an OD subscriber, so I'm not some cheap bastard who rails against all software costs, but I think paying for a beta - that following the boards and newsgroups has lots of problems yet - is below even Microsoft's beta test model.
Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #28 from WinCustomize Forums Top
FrogBoy,

I think you're missing the point. People are upset because we pay for a OD subscription but we still have to pay extra for some of the software. That kinda negates the subscription definition.

Think of it this way. You pay for a subscription to a magazine. There are many different articles that are in this magazine. But, one day they decide that you need to pay extra for this one article in this one magazine butall of the others are still part of the subscription. What's the point?

I love ObjectDock and I use it every day. ObjectDock + doesn't sound very appealing to me because I have not use for about 90% of the features. All I need is one dock that works. I would gladly give up my subscription to ObjectDesktop and pay for a working version of the original ObjectDock. The bugs that keep getting introduced in each version release are getting really annoying. It seems like hte bugs were introduced just to get us to buy the + version.
Reply #29 from WinCustomize Forums Top
FrogBoy,
You are a true Warrior Godspeed to you and all involved with these products,
I agree they are worth much more. Keep up the fine work!
Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh please. Nobody is forced to purchase the Beta, so what ?
Reply #31 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I dont know about you but that pizza looks good, plus pizza keeps you alive, you cant eat software.
Well eating cds isnt that much healthy, so id go for the pizza
Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Syonin Says "When I say OD+ should be apart of ODNT it has nothing to do with the price. I have gladly paid for just about everything Stardock has done since 1998-9. It's about 2 or 3 of my favorite pieces of ODNT getting barely any inovative changes in about 2 years, and out comes some seperate product that does everything I wanted in both the CC/TLP. Either go back to CC/TLP and get them some nice inovative features or have OD+ replace them in ODNT.
"

TasT Agrees. I'm all for stardock making money, I just want Brad and the crew to remember where their windows cashflow started, Those of us who have been hooked to ODNT since the start.

I want a TLP that is updated with cool new features.

I still dream of one of the apps being able to take on a NeXT like look with even better functionality.

OB with a less arcane skining method.

Object edit with a tabbed interface.

I am not whining I just believe that a company has to cater to it's existing clientel before hunting new customers.

On a lighter note thanks for the DX2 update finally it doesn't crash after a day or two.
Reply #33 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have never seen any other example of developers releasing paid for beta software.

Most beta's are released free of charge since this absolves the developer of any legal responsiblity.

In otherwords you use beta software at your own risk.

Is there a disclaimer on the installation of od+ ?











Reply #34 from WinCustomize Forums Top

BTW I do believe that OD+ is worth the money I just get tired ot the excuses...


Excuses? How about this straight forward one: What comes with Object Desktop is listed on the Object Desktop page. Feel free to find a link on Object Desktop that implies that users automatically get whatever we get.  CursorXP came out over 3 years ago and at the time it was a very close call on whether we included it in ODNT or not.


But a LOT has changed in Object Desktop since then.

Reply #35 from WinCustomize Forums Top

BTW, it's interesting that quite a number of the critics are level 2 users (i.e. haven't ever purchased anything).


Like I said previously, we take very seriously the opinions of Object Desktop users.


And the idea behind Object Desktop is that yes, it's sold as a subscription but that doesn't make it "Stardock Ala carte". 


Tab LaunchPad has had a couple of updates this year for instance. ObjectBar 2 is a complete rewrite which is why it's taken so long.  We have a new ODNT component due out at the end of August called RightClick. 


And anyone who's saying they've never seen anyone "charge to use the beta" is obviously very new around here.  ODNT itself was in beta for over a year before release.


And if you find regular ObjectDock "buggy" then me thinks you should go find a new product because regular ObjectDock is pretty solid as far as we're concerned.   By all means, try out Moby Dock http://www.mobydock.com/.   The fastest way to alienate developers is to tell them that they need to "finish" something that's been released.


Like I said before, if we could afford to, we'd make everything free.  But we can't. 

Reply #36 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Frogboy, I think this has already been mentioned, but how bout another of your great video demonstrations for those of us who are a little "slow". In particular, and after reading the ReadMe, I can't figure out how to set-up the systray items.
Reply #37 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm working on it.  My laptop was dead when I got back from vacation so I'm slowly reloading things. Very painful.
Reply #38 from WinCustomize Forums Top
qrayg says "Think of it this way. You pay for a subscription to a magazine. There are many different articles that are in this magazine. But, one day they decide that you need to pay extra for this one article in this one magazine butall of the others are still part of the subscription. What's the point?"

Bad analogy - more like you're subscribing to a magazine, and the company that produces the magazine decides to produce a few books along the way, and you're whining that your magazine subscription doesn't automatically entitle you to get the books for free? You're getting a 25% discount on it - what more do you want?

And just for the record - I'm a cheap-ass user, ObjectDock (free), DesktopX in "free" mode, WindowBlinds in "nag" mode, and while I wish ObjectDock Plus was free, I'm not whining about it.
Reply #40 from WinCustomize Forums Top
First of all... Object Desktop Network is not just $50. It is a subscription based software product. You pay $50 then you pay $35 each year forever into the future.

I have something to say here...

I feel there is a pattern developing here. Basically a 'de facto' "Free Object Desktop Network" is being created due to this pattern of creating "free apps" then making a "plus" version. If this pattern continues then in the future I can just cancel my Object Desktop subscription and instead use all of the "free apps" that are available. The incentive to renew my subscription is constantly decreasing due to this cannilbalizing of Object Desktop. For example It irks me that this Objectdock Plus functionality could have been integrated into Object Bar but wasn't. Also there are just "certain" apps that I "really" use in Object Desktop such as: Windowblinds, Iconpackager, DesktopX, Theme Manager, and WindowFX. Why not include CursorXP Plus and Objectdock Plus as part of Object Desktop Network and then just charge a straight $50 per year every year subscription. But please don't cannibalize Object Desktop Network by creating a de facto "Free Object Desktop" by releasing all of these "free" apps just so you can release "Plus" apps with functionality that should have been included into Object Desktop to begin with. If this pattern continues then why wouldn't people cancel their subscriptions and just use all of the "free" apps that you have made available? If you want to keep Object Desktop on the cutting edge and give people a strong incentive to renew their subscription then perhaps you can consider this?
Reply #41 from WinCustomize Forums Top
As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather pay for the beta and all 1.x versions than pay for only the 1.x versions.
Reply #42 from WinCustomize Forums Top
"ObjectBar 2 is a complete rewrite which is why it's taken so long" - Frogboy

Stick a fork in me lads, I'm done. That's the thing I am most interested in, and that line in Frogboys post makes me happy

I may occasionally have slight grumbles about odd pricing issues (DXPro for example) but I just renewed my ODNT subscription for a third year, and while I was describing ODNT as a recommendation to a colleague, it reminded just how much ODNT represents extremely good value for moeny, and as such OD+ not automatically becoming part of ODNT doesn't fuss me at all.

Cheers! (again)
Reply #43 from WinCustomize Forums Top
For all of those out there stating you've never seen someone pay for a beta, HA just ask Microsoft.
Office 2003 Beta cost $20, I know because I paid for it. (they claimed it covered the price of the media and shipping, but $20 is a lot for just that),

Anyway, if you don't want to buy the beta, don't...wait a few weeks or months for the final release and if you want buy it then. Brad and the rest opened it up now just so people can start experiencing it and give bugs and advice for the final release.
Reply #44 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'd probably starve if it weren't for pizza. As I'm sure some authors on this site can relate to, there comes day when you're working on a project for nearly 16 hours a day straight, and often you actually just forget to eat, and there's nothing quick in the refrigerater, and 5 empty bags of chips lay ate your feet... you have to order pizza. Anyhow, that's how I justify spending 18 dollars on two pizzas, which is at least 4 meals for one person in general.

As towards buying software, I personally find it difficult to buy a program that's primarily cosmetic. No one needs Object Dock and such per sey, it's more so just something they'd like to have. I can closely relate to the situate as I've worked several royalty based jobs and made less money than that needed to buy a 24 pack of Pepsi. And anymore there is so much free and donation-ware, not to mention open source programs, that it is sometimes difficult to bring yourself to pay for software. One personal example, I use The GiMP for most my work, personally I think it's better than Photoshop and most other image editing programs, it's circumstances like this which make people rethink paying for software.
Reply #45 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Stardock needs to consider the space they're playing in, and who the competition is. There are quite a few free apps that do the same job (or better) than ODNT components. I subscribe to ODNT and have purchased WB upgrades for years prior. Lately I've been considering just going back to purchasing WB. The main apps I use are IP, WB and DX. When was the last time IP had any new features? OB doesn't get any love, its impossible to skin without hours of work, and why doesn't it remove the title bars from Mozilla and Lotus Notes yet? I know these apps use strange toolkits but shouldn't that stuff get fixed? Object Edit is a great idea, but free apps like Context are better (ever try to open a log file in OE?). The Control Center, TAB Launchpad and Band VWM apps may have been cool in 96, but they don't cut it anymore. Bottom line, if you're going to charge for OD, do it. But don't be suprised when subscribers to ODNT stop seeing the value in subscriptions.
Reply #46 from WinCustomize Forums Top

IconPackager and new features? IconPackager 2.5 had quite a few new features in it such as the icon library navigator, condensed themes, IconDeveloper integration, etc.  IconPackager 3.0 is scheduled for this Fall which supports changing a bunch of new icons that took a lot of effort to figure out how to change (And get them to stick).


ObjectBar, as mentioned, repeatedly, has been being worked on heavily for the past year. The reason there haven't been incremental updates is because we basically had to go back and start from scratch with it. And it probably never will remove the bars from Mizlla and Lotus Notes as that feature will never be 100% because different apps implement their menus differently and very very few people use that particular feature.


As for the value of Object Desktop and (competition), what's the competition to ObjectBar? Hoverdesk? It hasn't been updated in over a year and there's no new version in sight.  What competitor removes the menu bar you were just complaining about?


And what about the other programs? Which apps out there let you dynamically RESCALE applications in real time (and still interact with them to boot) like WindowFX? None. What is the DesktopX equivalent? You'd have to take Samurize, NextStart, Hoverdesk, SysMetrix and Litestep and thrown them together to get remotely the same funtionality (and you still wouldn't be able to export widgets as EXEs like you can with DesktopX).


Yes, if you bought Object Desktop in 2004 for ControlCenter or ObjectEdit then there's probably not a lot of value.  But we don't even include ControlCenter anymore with new purchases of Object Desktop btw. It will get re-added when ControlCenter 2 comes out based on ObjectBar 2 technology.


I might also remind you, since you've downloaded nearly a gigabyte of content, that your Object Desktop subscription currently gives you unlimited bandwidth use of WinCustomize and also gives you discounts on premium suites, CursorXP, and ObjectDock.


Anyway, all that debating aside, ultimately the market will decide.  If Object Desktop users collectively decided there wasn't enough value in what's in there then we would have to adjust or kill Object Desktop. We believe Object Desktop is the best software value around. 

Reply #47 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I am planning on buying this, and I did pay for the whole kit and kaboodle with StarDock suite.

My reason for waiting is at this point the basic objectdock works great for me for what I need right now, also I am waiting for the slight bugs that have been found to be ironed out.

One other note, the products are great, but the owner of the company or even support staff going on a rant about complaints in my mind is certainly not professional. Most of use know that its is not even mature.

Cheers
Reply #48 from WinCustomize Forums Top
WB: I'll never stop using WB, I never questioned the value there, just the way I purchase it. I think Stardock has made a great product with WB, it's innovative with features and no one has been able to touch it.

IP: The IP features you mentioned are not things that I use.

OB: In terms of OB I disagree with you on Mozilla. I would think that many of us in the customization community are using it quite heavily. The removal of the menu from applications is prob not used because its inconsistent and hidden under layers of menus (or it was the last time I used it). Except for this feature I don't really see what makes it stand out from Litestep.

WFx: As for WFx, I only use it for shadows, so I'm prob not noticing the stuff you're talking about.

DX: Exporting widgets to exe files is not something that I would use.

You need to consider that a lot of us spend more money on Stardock products than we do on upgrading the OS every few years. By subscribing (not paying a one time $50 fee) I would like to see some attention paid to the $30 worth of products (everything else besides WB) I pay for each year instead of seeing the company spend all its efforts on new products that I will have to pay more for. It sounds like you/Stardock have a lot of stuff in the pipe so maybe I'll be pleasantly suprised. I'd personally rather see the cost of an ODNT subscription go up by $5-$10 instead of having to buy 3 different products.

I guess the subscription model isn't necessarily right for me (doesn't mean it isn't right for others). In general I guess the point I was trying to make is that I have no issues with Stardock creating new products. If you want to charge for them, cool, thats your right.
Reply #49 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hi Frogboy, you mentioned trying some of the rival docks if we thought objectdock was buggy. Well, I did this a while ago and no other product does the job as well as Objectdock, it is a brilliant program and I had no trouble with version 1.0 Free at all. As mentioned in my previous post I am definately experiencing a bug with the latest free version and am concerned that this exists in the plus version also. I think with the next released version you will have the best Dock out there - it is available free - and I don't think the public can ask for better than that. As for the plus version, $15 is nothing, hell I spent that on a breakfast in San Fransisco on holiday last year and people with OD shouldn't complain about having to pay extra for a program that is extremely useful and looks cool. Everyone has to make a living.
Reply #50 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Add me to the list of users who are content to pay a reasonable fee for highly useful software.

ObjectDock+ beta was/is interesting enough that I paid for it. It died sometime the next day after I added a slew of tabs and shortcuts and it won't restart (yes, I sent in my smartexception log). But I'm comfortable knowing that paying for software includes some period of support and that I'll be able to get it working sometime over the next few days or weeks, even if I have to wait until its out of beta.

I work in an industry dominated by subscription-based services and know something about them, budgets, and customer expectations. Stardock might find that by making a few different packages of product combo's and by making it even more clear what the ala carte prices are that it could help customers understand the good value they are receiving.

E.g. DesktopX, IconX, CursorXP + any other two program of someone's choice for $45. Just an idea. The comments above are full of details about what program combo's people would like to choose.

This approach also might tell Stardock which programs are favorites. Of course, your download stats may already tell you that.

By the way, I think that the Objectdock business strategy is a good one: a useful tool for free, enough to whet a few appetites for the plus version that is an extremely useful tool that is inexpensive.

I'm also a big open source fan and I like no-cost software as much as anyone. I think that the trend is already underway where we'll all be seeing more open source projects shift to shareware instead of freeware. Certain types of software take enough time that the programmers have to forgo outside employment.

Anyway, I hope that Stardock continues to do fun and interesting things and that your business model works for the forseeable future.