I again refer to my questions of 16/5/2002. The reply I received from Developer Turd Berg 16/5/2002 was not satisfactory. I am a winCustomise Subscriber and a ODNT Subscriber. I have used Skin Browser. It appears to apply the skin direct to the computer and stores the skin in the appropriate ODNT component. I am most probably wrong but please explain how it works.

I am keeping in mind all the times we are reminded how popular this site has become, the growth this site has achieved in a year, etc., etc., etc. Now, I believe it is realistic to hypothesize that all these "customers" have purchased at least ONE program, if not several. On top of all that, you feel it necessary to apply a charge for "shopping" for skins which use your products? The cost of doing business is not necessarily a concern of your "customers", however, our preceptions of how we are being "treated" is of our concern. Don''t know about you but "serving" the majority, vs waiting in line (not meeting customer needs with a sense of satisfaction) may cost you more in the long run. No??????????

I am sorry, but I''m with Stardock on this one. The cost of maintaining the equipment is high, and they as a company need to make money in order to survive. The past failings of big and small ''dot coms'' has shown us that.
And say what you want, but I have never seen a software company that had as fast a response to my problems as Stardock has.
20 bucks for a subscription is reasonable to me.

Ande: It means that it connects directly to WinCustomize and changes the current skin in your ODNT applications as appropriate. It does no skinning work on it''s own - like WinStyles, it is a facilitator, making it easier to find, organise and apply skins and themes.

Renegade: It''s certainly not reasonable to hypothesize that. Are you aware of the sheer number of people who just use the shareware versions, or who warez the enhanced versions? Neither of those categories have paid anything. WB, for example, has about 4 million downloads from download.com, it''s distributor. The average conversion rate of downloads -> registrations for shareware/trial software is 1%, which would indicate about 40,000 registered WB users. Even if you double that, it''s less than 1/10th of what you suggest - ODNT subscribers might push that to 100,000, but I''d consider that about the upper bound.

It didn''t matter so much when there were 500 skins and a few thousand people using the site. Now there are, what, a million uniques a month? WC is providing a service. For a higher level of service, they have to start charging. If you don''t like that, then you can go somewhere where it''s financed by pop-up ads, or just accept the limited level of service.

Alan Carr: You probably have to have the same email address in your WC profile and as your ODNT subscription address.

Interesting. I certainly understand Stardock''s need for a subscription system, the costs they need to cover, etc.. but then again I certainly understand the consumer''s anger over seemingly paying twice for the products they use. Of course Stardock doesn''t see it that way, but an argument could certainly be made that it is unreasonable to expect the consumer who has paid for ODNT to pay for this service as well. There are also billing glitches, in that two users from the same billing address would have to pay twice (!!).

No, I''m not bashing either side in this arguement one way or the other. Usually I''m an early adopter, but I think this time it''s best wait and see how all this pans out.

Good luck, and may the best man win.

Reaper: Yeh, kinda what I figure, but I hope they explain exactly HOW, anyway.

Odds are, though, I''ll end up subscribing anyway, so the question is moot. I''ve been a ODNT subscriber for 2 years, yet think the subscription fee for WC is fair. I''m sure I''ve downloaded more 50 megs myself in that time!

I think the ODNT subscription is fairly just for the apps and ALL upgrades. If you added in the cost of bandwidth for all the skins I''ve downloaded, something tells me it would be more than $19.95!

Thanks Larry for that clear simple and concise reply. It was a hard road for me to get the answer. I must express myself more betterer im futre.

Well i''m happy i have ODNT considering that there is no version for 98se yet so my downloads are unaffected

I am all for this subscription and i will subscribe as soon as the win 98 version is out.

Web sites do have large overheads and i do not want wc to go the way of skinz org!

Skinz org has come back from the land of the dead but it is very bad and it has never recovered.

People support sports teams all the time.. and what really do they get from that?

This way at least there will be something to show for it.. and you get gifts thrown in premium suites... WHAT A DEAL !

The angst comes from your double dipping. What about the people who just own windowblinds, or desktop x, skins used to be available, and the perceived status quo was if you purchased the software, here were all these skins you could use. then you moved everything over here and want to double-charge or else limit peoples experience with the software.

The angst comes from any simple goon can plainly see what you''re doing whether they are an odnt or not.

Your trodding under foot the guys who didn''t purchase the whole package.

The angst comes from charging for other peoples work.

Any other questions??

Let me be clear:

Anyone in our database as a customer of any form or other will have unlimited downloads here.

Therefore, I don''t see any grounds for your complaints. People who are using a pirated or shareware version of WindowBlinds should not have their downloads subsidized by paying customers. And even then, the limit on non-customers/non-subscribers will be pretty high (many megabytes of downloads before they experience a download queue - which hasn''t even been implemented yet).

If thats the case that is good, you only stated that ODNT will not be limited, now you''re changing past admissions.

Still, why are people who load your database with skins charged.

Some may not have puchased any of your software but load your site with skins that others look for, and they have to pay to be unlimited.

You talk about amount of limiting, and special suites and other goodies, all pretty easy to say, when you don''t have any standard to follow.

The only standard the consumer knows is it costs 19.95.

And please don''t say let me be clear, you''re about as clear as any politician.

DBS, I don''t have to even respond to you. Being a customer doesn''t give you the right to be abusive. If you can''t be civil then don''t expect me to spend my free time responding to you. The WinCustomize magazine, which you should have received already, spelled out the different levels of users:

1)Visitor
2)Registered User
3)Object Desktop/Stardock Customer, High-access User
4)WinCustomize Subscriber

Levels 3 and 4 above get unlimited downloads. I''m sorry I didn''t make that clear in this post previously but since it went out in the WC magazine that you should already have, I didn''t think it was necessary. And we are just starting forth with it.

Did''nt think I was being abusive. Only expressing free speech.

Guess thats something you would like to curtail.

Im not the only one who does''nt like or understand what you''re doing.

If you can''t handle simple inquisitiveness

Oh and about your mag,

Sorrry did''nt know it was my top priority to read it.

Just wanted answers. Sorry its like pulling teeth.

I''m quite happy with the way ODNT works, I don''t want a skin browser applying stuff directly. So what else comes with the subscription? There doesn''t appear to be much detail given anywhere - what features? What is a ''premium skin suite''? And more? I can afford the cash but I want more info before parting with it.

Frogboy-
So, you''re saying a subscription is basically "selling" skins (amongst other things) to those who are subscribers. If that is the case, does the skinner receive any financial reward from your endeavour? If i were a skinner who put a lot of time and effort into making skins, and then saw only Stardock and WinCusto benefitting financially from my work, I''d be mighty pissed off, and would be inclined to speak to a lawyer about the legality of this.

There will be more details as time goes on. If there are not enough details to make a decision on getting a subscription then clearly the best route is to hold off until you are satisfied.

Regarding the premium skins, premimum skins means we would contract with Pixtudio or someone else to create them. I find it rather disheartening given our long history that anyone would even imagine that we would somehow exploit skin authors.

Frogboy-
I''m not suggesting that there is on your part any attempt to exploit skinners, but you can surely see the point i''m trying to make.

Yeah, sure we can see the point. Running this kind of site, while seemingly an advertizing expense to the average consumer.. is wildly expensive. I understand that WC and ODNT are two different things in this case, so I hardly think it''s an evil thing to subscribe to both.. however not everyone is gonna see it that way.

On a personal note, Juni and I would probably subscribe in a heartbeat as long as we didn''t have to pay twice.

tinkergaloot - definitely. It would be pretty crummy if the site forced people to pay to access skins that were uploaded by skin authors freely. I''d be at the head of the line crying foul.

Frogboy maybe you should think about becoming a dentist this looks like as hard as pulling teeth with chopsticks.. it seems simple enough to me.

Take some deep breaths !

OK, one thing I would like to say. I THANK you for giving me a GREAT program that works. I hear the talk. Bottom line, if you want a bit extra, then pay the money, if you do not, then just download what you find and that''s it. Thank You Frogboy and ALL involved.

Frogboy, i think part of the problem is simply one of communication.

since i have been following the message boards for a while now () i know the details of the subscription. also i have come to trust that stardock will behave honorably, based on my dealings with you over the years.

however, simply looking at the news items, this hasnt been made as clear as it could have been. if you know what is happening, then it all makes sence. however, obviously a fair amount of confusion has been generated.

/me concludes clear communication is harder than you might think

Hey, I have the whole object desktop siute but I do not have this skin browser. Is it separate???

I am a little upset that for the SECOND time now, I have tried to use the support/email page to get the links to the updated applications, and no response despite a message coming up saying my records were found in the database. I am a subscriber, so that's not it. I have also already set up to have my accounts cross-referenced. email to sales, no good either. Any ideas? I am not running a firewall or anything.