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America prepares for war...

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America prepares for war...

from JoeUser Forums
Some people, mostly outside the United States believe that the US response is going to be a single or brief set of air strikes against some designated enemy. That is not the case.

There won't just be a strike. The United States is mobilizing for war as we speak. The government just activated the reserves today. There won't be a single strike, it is going to be a prolonged campaign that will likely take years.

Colin Powell yesterday basically set up the way it's going to work. Countries with terrorist training camps in them will be approached to eliminate the problem themselves. If they do not, the US will 1) Take care of the problem for them and 2) Move to replace the government with one more civilized.

I don't think people outside the US have grasped that the United States is not viewing this as a law enforcement problem, it is viewing this as a war. We're not talking some air strikes, we're talking sending in ground troops to either blockade or invade nation states that harbor terrorists.

And the nations that may have US and international invervention (remember, this isn't the US versus the world, this is the world versus a handful of rogue nations who aid and harbor terrorists) would be conquered and have their governments replaced much as what we done with Japan and Germany.

One foreign policy expert yesterday pointed out that the only way to win for the long term is to change the cultures of this countries. To de-fanatacize them. When the US occupied Japan and Germany, it turned them into peaceful countries right down to the culture.

If they had had the Internet in 1941, I doubt anyone here would guess that years later, Japan would have Japan Disney and Mickey Mouse being their favorite cartoon character. Japan Disney does more business than Disney World in Florida. Cocacola is their favorite soft drink. American pop stars are their favorite musicians.

This is what is being discussed. The only way to win this in the long haul is for us to turn these enemies of the United States into us. Us being Western Europeans/Americans.

And before you think such plans absurd or extreme, I merely point to history where it is exactly how the Allies handled World War II. We turned the Japanese and Germans into us. And the people are happier for it.

And again, before someone points out that one cannot turn these fanatics into us. Read up on Nazism. You can't get much more fanatical than the Hitler youth was.

These countries in the Middle east will have to either abolish terrorism on their own or they will face the international community's determination to forever eliminate not just the terrorists but the culture that breeds terrorism. Don't think it can't be done, it's been done before when it was far more daunting to do so.
33,610 views 55 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
Noneofurbusiness: As I understand it, China are fully in support of the international community's condemnation of this attrocity.

Bit of a surprise, but a welcome one.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have to admit that I find all this extremely worrying. The idea of forceably destroying a culture other than ours because we believe that it breeds fanaticism and acts of terrorism reminds me a little too much of Hitler's intended plan for the world. Taking away an entire culture and replacing it with our Western beliefs is hardly likely to make everything peachy again. Think of it this way; there are sects of terrorists in the US who can be thought to be a product of Western culture themselves. Sometimes I think that Americans believe they are the example that the rest of the world should follow.

I should point out that I was just as horrified by the events on the 11th as the majority of the world. However, I'm almost as disturbed by some of the 'solutions' which are being put forward.
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Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'd make several warnings here:

First, we need to be very careful in replacing "non-compliant" gevernments with new ones which better suit our tastes. We've done that before, only to have it backfire on us (Iran/Iraq, various nations in Central America).

And don't think for one minute that the Japanese situation is peachy and resolved. Sure, their culture has adapted and absorbed many of the Western pastimes and such, but their ideals are still very foriegn to Western thinking. And *many* Japanese are far from forgiving for the atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They're a smart people with *long* memories, and they have the benefit of patience.

And has anyone actually thought about the consequences of what our brilliant, brave, and tear-soaked president (gotta admire a man who can tear up on queue...) has proposed? Fight fire with fire? Sure, so the bombing of targets in Afganistan and the Middle East, and the resultant slaughter of thousand--or even hundreds of thousands--of innocent civilians (even if you don't agree with their culture and beliefs, they're still innocent until *they* pull something like Tuesday), is morally justified now? Isn't that just as bad as what they did? Sure, we'll have the argument "They hit me first," but we don't let our kids get away with that excuse; why should we let our government?

Don't get me wrong. I was off work Tuesday, sitting at home watching TV and saw the events unfold within minutes of them happening. And I was horrified. And the truth is, I don't have the answers. But I think war, the kind of war that's being proposed, is a rash and foolhardy emotional response to the horror, not one with much thought or logic behind it. We do these things, we'll be no better than they, and our lives, liberties and moralities will quickly deteriorate in the process.
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
I wonder if the US goverment regret having armed and trained these terrorist to fight "The Great Evil Empire"? They did not learn all that by themselfs. They were trained by the CIA to fight the USSR. Well, now USSR is long gone and the US has become these terrorists new "Great Evil Empire"...

Once it was a Just fight for liberty and freedom. Now its terrorism. Its all a matter of perspective.

This will get REAL ugly...
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
does anybody have a link to a newsarticle that says china has joined us? that would be a load off my mind.
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
The CIA did not teach people how to hijack and fly civilian airplanes into office buildings, Torm.
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey You - As far as I know China has not agreed to anything, and only a few weeks ago officially recognized the Taliban as a legitimate government. They have a strong alliance with both Afganistan and Pakistan. The news I saw about China said that they have told our government that they would not support any military action against Afganistan or any other country.

The operation Bush's administration is proposing is a world-wide attack against terrorism. The countries already mentioned as being potential targets are North Korea, Pakistan, Afganistan, Egypt, Sudan, Cuba, Vietnam, and others. Some of these countries are expected to participate with us in our effort to erradicate the terrorist training camps and bases of operations within their territories. Some of them won't agree to willingly allow our military to strike within their borders.

Finding bin Ladden's bases and camps will be easy because our tax dollars built most of them. The United States and the former Soviet Union have been the main supporters, oufitters, suppliers and teachers of most of the world's terrorist organisations in recent history. Thus, we have very good intelligence on the locations of major encampments throughout the world because we actually built them and kept them supplied with weapons and expert training.

At this point, it's probably too late to take a serious and thoughtful look at our own foriegn policy. It's a shame that people in the United States are not involved in or informed about what their trillions of dollars are being spent on.

Don't underestimate what is happening here... we are going to war and it will be a long, painful and bloody process. I will be fought all over the globe in many different countries... including the USA.
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm appalled by all acts of terrorism. I feel deeply for all those effected by terrorism. All the innocent lives lost and the suffering of the families. The waste of life. As an Englishman living in Manchester I've experienced the effects of terrorism before. I can only hope that all those Fireman and Police Officers who have lost colleagues during the tragedy in New York will now stop their funding of terrorism through their continued support of the IRA. Do they now realise that their country as well as the rest of the civilised world has declared war on them too. They have and continue to support and offer safe harbour to terrorists. "The Devil's Advocate" was not just a lousy movie!!!! Support freedom now and banish ALL support to ALL terrorist activity.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
Brad, how can you be sure of that? Do you have access to records none of the rest of us do? The CIA did in fact distribute a paper by one of their analysts in 1993 describing exactly this scenario.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
It is up to the person making the assertion that the CIA trained these people.

There is already no shortage of evidence that the terrorists went to Florida, took flying lessons, and went from there. Are you suggesting that the CIA were flight instructors in Florida?
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
/me stops biting his tongue for a sec

North Korea, Cuba and Vietnam? Since when do they host terrorists?

/me continues biting his tongue
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
The US has every right in my opinion to retaliate,but in no way has the right to "Americanise" the rogue nations to the point where the world series will actually be a world event.My country (Australia) is extremley close to the largest Islamic country on earth,Indonesia.Australia has a population of 20 million, Indonesia has 210 million.We almost went to war with them in 1999 over their attempted obliteration of the East Timorese,and have no doubt that this will happen if a Christian/Islamic war is to take place.Just alerting you guys in the states that your actions will have far reaching consequnces and this isnt just a US problem anymore.ps I will fight to the death to protect my homeland and way of life,but not for a country which doesnt know where Australia is on the map or to appease my ass kissing government,just like we did in Vietnam
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dont get me wrong. Im not saying the CIA had anything to do with this. But back in the days of the USSR invasion of Afganistan the USA through CIA armed and traind Taliban (and bin Ladden was fighting with them at the time). They learned them to fight with whatever weapons the had. And they learned the lesson real good. Unfortunately.

The war in Afganistan was a horror and real attrocities were comitted by both sides.
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
What the?!..
What war are you talking about? Wasn't it the US who continuosly said that the best way to deal with terorists is negotiations, not war?! US tried to convince Russia that it mus NEGOTIATE with chechens -- and now, even when the enemy is not clear -- US PREPARES FOR WAR?!
God...
Maybe US prepares for something, but I can't call it a WAR. When you answer for terrorism by bombing some countries -- it ALSO IS THE TERRORISM.

Therefore, America prepares for terrorism, not war.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
...by the way...
WHat words did Bush choose to start Spetember, 11th speech to nation?
"Good evening"?
Or was I desinformed?
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
The events of last week will forever be etched in our minds. As our prayers go out to the rescuers and the victims families we must remain united and support our president whether we voted for him or not. We must do whatever is necessary to stop the terriorism. I don't want to see a war start as I have a 25 yr. old son. But what must be will be. May God bless us and have mercy on our souls. United we stand, divided we fall.
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
It really doesn't matter what you think it is SSL. It is war. And if you cannot make the distinction between flying civilian airlines into office buildings for the express purpose of killing innocents and accidental collateral damage, then you have my sympathy.
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have been unable to post a response here since my last post. This is a test to see if maybe my response is being blocked because it's too long...
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top
since that seems to be the case I'll break it up into three parts...

I've been staying out of conversations on the MB's because I'm not sure of my own rationality at this time. I was struck with such numbing grief and rage, and then found out that a very good friend of mine was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. Having her face, her voice and her wonderful personality attached to the incidents has deeply personalized and multiplied my pain and my rage.

It's impossible to get the truth anymore, not that anyone has been clamoring for it. Spin seems to be preferred because it's less threatening. We can now expect even less truth from the press both domestic and international. The propaganda filters and outright content control is now a matter of international security. Dissention in the form of mere questions can be viewed as seditious when a country is at war. But questions and disbelief are natural when you are asked to accept that our system failed so miserably to protect us.
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
On Wednesday there was an article on the London Times website stating that the British intelligence agency was furious at the CIA. They claim they had given the CIA information warning them of this attack. They had names, dates and the target (WTC and DC buildings) and said the information was passed with the highest level of confidence and urgency to the top level contact at the CIA. They were demanding to know why this information was ignored... That article also appeared at the BBC website and the Israeli news website. The next day it was not on any of the sites and was replaced with an article titled "CIA was warned" which talked about an analyst telling them something like this could happen ten years ago...

Friday I saw a report on NBC that the French intelligence warned us several days before the attack. Another story on FOX was that a man being held in Germany said he called the "US police" and warned of the attack specifically mentioning the WTC. And yet, no effort to increase security, or even inform the airlines to watch for the names (which it turns out are the names they used on their tickets) of the known terrorists known to be here and planning an attack using domestic airlines.
Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't know what is true and what isn't. Some things just make no sense to me. Terrorism makes no sense to me.

The facts that are known regarding the CIA's involvement with training and supporting insurgency (terrorist) groups are public record. No one disputes it. And this is from an agency that reveals absolutely nothing about their actions to the public. Not only does the CIA have a complete blanket of secrecy over their operations except for some disclosure to the congressional select committee on intelligence, there is an additional 60 Billion dollars annually for 'black-ops' that doesn't even have that congressional oversight, nor even by the president. The CIA has admitted to trafficking in drugs. They invented crack cocaine and brought that into our country. Who knows what else they're up to? Why, with the obvious failure to protect us from this attack should we assume they are doing everything in our best interest? It was, after all, the CIA that put Saddam Hussein and the Taliban in power in their respective countries. Admittedly a mistake now, but when, after we rid the world of terrorism, do we start demanding accountability from our own government agencies?
Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
Can the American people be trusted to make decisions or even just be informed of decisions our government makes? I think so... and I think we should demand to be informed and hold our politicians accountable. I'm proud of all that America stands for and I wish that our foreign policy could consistently reflect those values. I would like to believe that we are being told we will give up many of our freedoms because that is necessary to eradicate this evil from our planet, and not to protect a corrupt political structure that is paranoid of public opinion and truthful disclosure. I consider myself fiercely patriotic and protective of the American way of life. I want the perpetrators of these heinous acts punished and prevented from ever committing such atrocities again. And I want America and it's values and freedoms to survive into a new age of global concern for the health and welfare of all the human race. We are about to be tested to an unprecedented degree. We will fight the good fight against fanaticism and terror. As a nation we are being asked to give our best physically and spiritually and we as a United States citizens have the right, and even a duty, to expect that our leaders give us the same degree of integrity and focus.

btw - while surfing around the net I noticed at the website for the congressional select committee on intelligence that Gary Condit is no longer listed as a member. Perhaps this is a good omen.
Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
War sucks, everyone knows it, but countries (like people) need to build their path to survival, you cant stop terrorists argumenting, its sad but has been since the begining of the world, every animal fights for his territory, if you dont... you will be ate quickly.

But we are not just animals, we are humans, and humans knows to reason, when they kill somebody they know it hurts to him and to all his family and friends, they know they are taking out their only chance to live, thats why in wars is supoused you CANT attack public places, just militar facilities.

But terrorists attacked to common citizens, must of them dont know whats happening there and they are only trying to live, no matter wich country that makes me angry, if USA dont respond then they will continue, killing innocent lives, i know USA gov did some dirty tricks in the past, as many countries do since they are just looking for survival and expansion, but many of the ppl who was working there didnt know that, and died leaving behind theri only chance to live, leaving sadness to all their friends and family.

Off course that if USA strikes, as MisterME said there will be also several deaths and sad, and that isnt civilizated, but if they dont terrorist will continue until something is done, and we are talking about far more lifes and mostly of common citizen who didnt decided if egypt can kill or not palestinians for their lands.

Just my cent... which i think isnt very well explained since english is always a pain in the neck. :\
Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top
If indeed the CIA was warned before hand of these specific attacks I hope this comes out. Right now I'm skeptical.