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Marriage Under Fire

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Marriage Under Fire

We Need To Put Out The Fire, Not Add To It

from JoeUser Forums

My home state of Maine is once again going to the polls tomorrow to vote on yet another homosexual issue.  This time it's on whether or not homosexual marriage should be legalized.  So far every state that puts this to a vote brings another loss to the homosexual movement.  Not one state to date has had an affirmation by popular vote for homosexual marriage.    

I know we hear and get caught up in some very emotional reasons as to why we should allow this but we really need to take a good look at what's going on in our culture when it comes to marriage and how it's affecting our children already. 

Marriage is under attack.  There was a time when going to the altar was a sacred committment that meant something.  Until death due us part.  Remember that?   There was a time when a man and a woman were united as one, raised a family and sat back to enjoy the fruits of their labor in the benefits we call grandchildren.  We still see some old dinosaurs out there who are still hanging on trying to keep the traditional home fires burning in a controlled sort of way, but it's getting to be a thing of the past more and more.  We have now abandoned the home fires which are now burning out of control. 

What has happened to all that?  Where did we go wrong?  Is it  religion being taken out of our culture bit by bit?  The invention of the pill leading up to a sexual revolution starting back in the 60's?  Women working outside the home leaving husband and children to fend for themselves much of the time?   Entertainment?  Computers? 

Heterosexuals haven't done such a great job in the marriage business these last 30 or 40 years but legalizing homosexual marriage isn't the answer.  Marriage is on fire, and legalizing homosexual marriage is like adding gasoline to a blaze already burning out of control. 

We are seeing the evidence of this in our kids.  They are hurting.  They have been burnt and are now suffering the consequences of marriages gone aflame.  If you listen carefully you can actually hear the dull roar of the fire as it quickly spreads.  This roar is angry, loud and invasive. 

Look around.  Have you not noticed the anger in our culture especially the younger generation?  It's all making sense.  What do we need to do to put this fire out?  Anger manifests itself in many ways.  Anger acts out. 

Let me tell you what I saw yesterday.  I saw seven hurting (last week there were 12) teenagers in Sunday School.  Not one comes from a traditional homelife.  Every single one of them is missing at least one parent in their lives.  The common denominator is anger and frustration. 

There's nothing like a big batch of homemade cookes to get a bunch of teens to warm up to you.  Within moments we started to hear their heart wrenching stories.  Some I've already posted on an earlier blog. 

Our topic on this morning was anger.  We taught them how we should be slow to speak, quick to hear and slow to anger.  Doing so will alleviate many troubles in their lives and will save them from dire consequences.  They were all too eager to share their problems with us about their emotional abusive step-fathers or in the case of one girl, a brother-in-law  married to her sister who was raising her. 

Where are the real biological parents?  Why so many broken marriages?   In the case of this girl, her sister is 22 years older than her and no talk of any mother or father in the picture.  I'm guessing without this sister and her husband this 14 year old would be in foster care.  She's a beautiful young 14 year old girl. 

One boy has so much anger he has a court date next week to address it.  He's now 18, follows me around showing me his notebook on how he's trying to change his life.  I had the feeling he needs mothering.  His father has been married at least 3 times and has two younger kids with his third wife who doesn't seem to be in the picture now. 

Another boy I'll call JU sat in a back corner with his hat on backwards hardly looking at us.  He wouldn't pick up the book, read along with us or share in the conversation.  While I still know nothing about JU we got a report back this morning that immediately after Sunday School he pulled out of church a man he knew and wanted to talk about his anger issues.  The older man said to my husband "I don't know what you taught about in class yesterday but it sure made an impression on JU.  Enough to pull me out of church to talk to him for over a half hour." 

Every child needs a mom and a dad.  For a child to feel safe and secure he needs both of his parents to stay strong and committed not only to him but to each other.  The best way a father can show a son about love is to show it for his wife.  The best way a daughter can learn about how a woman should love and respect her husband is by watching her mother.   What kinds of models do these kids have? 

We seem so worried about the deficit and how it will affect our next generation but what about the trail of broken marriages leaving angry and displaced kids all over the place? 

We need to go back and try to fix what's broken not add another dimension to an already troubled institution. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

14,661 views 104 replies
Reply #76 from JoeUser Forums Top

That would be a great argument if we where discussing physical features. If you can point to a study where the black sheep mates only with other black sheep or juvenile sheep, you may have something there. We are talking about something that for all apparent reasons occurs within the brain since anatomical features are not affected.

End of quote

Homosexuality is a physical feature. The brain (outside the soul) is subject to the laws of physics.

 

BTW I believe your numbers are high. 10% (30 million) would almost equal the entire Black population of the US. Just in my travels, I doubt that 1 in 10 people are gay (I could be wrong, but many would be hiding it well with opposite sex spouses and children). We may never know unless it becomes a census question.

End of quote

The exact number is irrelevant. Even if it were 1% it would still be "normal". Bus driver is a "normal job", but I would be surprised if even 1% of a given population were bus drivers.

I'm not sure where you would want to draw the border between normal and not normal, but whereever you draw it, I am sure homosexuality would be on the normal side.

 

You bring up something here that begs another interesting question here. Is an adult male that rapes young boys a pedophile, or a homosexual, or both? One thing it does prove IMO is pedophilia and homosexuality are two distinct conditions.

End of quote

An adult male who rapes young boys is a rapist, a pedophile, and a homosexual. But his homosexuality is not the problem here. His crime would be just as bad if he had raped a young girl. Then he would be a rapist, a pedophile, and a heterosexual. And I want to see the person who would condemn him for his heterosexuality!

 

IMO the only thing that separates homosexuals from pedophiles socially (and again, I'm not suggesting it is the same condition or even related) is a source of willing partners. Pedophilia is only considered wrong because it exploits an unwilling partner.

End of quote

Yes. Pedophilia is considered wrong because it explots an unwilling partner.

Homosexuality does not have that problem and neither does heterosexuality.

 

 

Reply #77 from JoeUser Forums Top

Everything that happens in nature without human interference is "natural".

End of quote

Let me add something about murder which I had accepted as a given.

"Murder" is a type of killing that involves a reason for killing that is not normally a natural reason to kill.

Animals of the same species usually avoid killing each other when they fight. I think a case can be made that murder is a human invention, and is hence not natural.

 

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Reply #78 from JoeUser Forums Top

10% is very high.  I don't for a moment believe we have 10% homosexuals in our country...as of yet, but would not be surprised to see this number go up as acceptance goes up.  We have Sodom as our example. 

I have a very large Catholic family on both my side and my husband's side of the family.  My grandmother had 10 siblings.  My husband'ss mother had almost that and my husband is one of six.... and then there are many grandchildren and so on. 

Out of both of our families thru the years we have had only one homosexual family member.  So I tell others to look at their families, do some simple math and see what kind of percentage they come up with.  I'll bet you dollars to donuts you will not see 10 family members out of 100 that are homosexual. 

 

 

Reply #79 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting ParaTed2k, reply 68
Leuki, so if a pedophile lived in a society where it is not taboo, would that mean that sex with kids is normal for that person?  If the society was one where people start having kids shortly after puberty, would sex between the pedophile adult and adolescent be considered harmful?
End of ParaTed2k's quote

Leauki wrote:

That's what it was like in ancient Greece.
End of quote

What you are referring to is pederasty, which is not the same as pedophilia. LINK to the wikipedia article.

Reply #80 from JoeUser Forums Top

10% is very high.  I don't for a moment believe we have 10% homosexuals in our country...as of yet, but would not be surprised to see this number go up as acceptance goes up.  We have Sodom as our example. 

End of quote

I really don't know the exact number.

However, do note that other cities in Canaan probably had the same number of homosexuals among their population. G-d never did go around destroying cities because of the genetics of their inhabitants.

 

I have a very large Catholic family on both my side and my husband's side of the family.  My grandmother had 10 siblings.  My husband'ss mother had almost that and my husband is one of six.... and then there are many grandchildren and so on. 

Out of both of our families thru the years we have had only one homosexual family member.  So I tell others to look at their families, do some simple math and see what kind of percentage they come up with.  I'll bet you dollars to donuts you will not see 10 family members out of 100 that are homosexual.

End of quote

I don't know how many homosexuals notice their condition and then admit it to others, especially in an environment like your family.

But I have seen pictures of gay pride parades that were attended by quite many homosexuals. So their percentage among the general population must be somewhat greater than the percentage of bus drivers. That makes them normal enough for me.

I understand that albinism has a prevalance of 1/17,000 in a human population. I would say that albinos are not normal (although natural). Homosexuals are a lot more common, probably reaching at least 1/1000, very likely 1/100, probably 10/100, and possibly higher.

A British government statistic says it's 6%.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1505277/Six-per-cent-of-population-are-gay-or-lesbian-according-to-Whitehall-figures.html

I would call that normal. Natural blond haircolour is rarer, but also a normal haircolour.

 

Reply #81 from JoeUser Forums Top

What you are referring to is pederasty, which is not the same as pedophilia. LINK to the wikipedia article.

End of quote

Some researchers make a distinction, some do not. It's irrelevant here as either concept would have made the same point.

Pedophilia is probably pederasty in a society where it is not considered normal to have such relations with children.

Or is the difference about the age? Pedophilia being to 11 and pederasty starting at 11 and older? It doesn't matter for this purpose.

Reply #82 from JoeUser Forums Top

I doesn't matter for the debate. But pederasty in ancient greece was a huge part of their culture and had it's own strict rules and social etiquette. I just thought it would be OK to know the correct term when talking about it and knowing what it actually was in its cultural historic context. It is arbitrary knowledge though, like an extended footnote.

Reply #83 from JoeUser Forums Top

So their percentage among the general population must be somewhat greater than the percentage of bus drivers.
End of quote

well maybe if we had bus driver parades you might reconsider!  :) 

btw...I had one bus driver in the family as well.  So for me looking at my numbers in my family they would be equal in number. 

 

Reply #84 from JoeUser Forums Top

You can probably explain to a very intelligent ape that homosexual sex won't produce children. But he won't care when the urge hits him.
End of quote

Bad example. There's no shortage of female apes.

Reply #85 from JoeUser Forums Top

What a genius this guy is.
End of quote

If I'm a genius, why would I waste my time with you people?

Reply #86 from JoeUser Forums Top

Bad example. There's no shortage of female apes.

End of quote

Why would the number of female apes be relevant?

 

btw...I had one bus driver in the family as well.  So for me looking at my numbers in my family they would be equal in number. 

End of quote

Did you tell your bus driver that he wasn't normal because he's a bus driver?

 

Reply #87 from Stardock Forums Top

Why would the number of female apes be relevant?
End of quote

I've just never heard of homosexual apes. Other animals, yes, but not apes. Maybe the closeness to humans is relevant, Evolution-wise?

Reply #88 from JoeUser Forums Top

I've just never heard of homosexual apes. Maybe the closeness to humans is relevant, Evolution-wise?

End of quote

I don't know if it developed in the common ancestor or whether it developed independently later. Perhaps it existed in an ancestor and was dormant until it resurfaced in the different species again.

 

Apes:

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/opinion/gayanimals030707-4

End of quote

 

Monkies (close enough):

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/opinion/gayanimals030707-8

End of quote

 

I don't think we can be sure that they don't know that these acts don't produce offspring. They seem to do it for specific reasons that are not a want for offspring.

 

Reply #89 from JoeUser Forums Top

Everything that happens a lot in a given population (of animals or humans) is "normal".
End of quote

We'll just have to disagree here. By your reasoning (and you're entitled) the cases listed below are normal, because it "happens a lot"

"About 120,000 babies (1 in 33) in the United States are born each year with birth defects" reference March of Dimes Link 

If we change the statement about to reflect your definition it would read"

"About 120,000 babies (1 in 33) in the United States are born each year just as normal as the other 4.2 million"

I know you gave humans and animals as an example, but suppose you bought a product and it didn't work as designed. You might call it defective, especially if it performed the opposite function of its intended design, at any rate you wouldn't suggest it was normal. Although if you were told to expect that result, through experience constantly encounter that result, or hope for that result with all your heart, you might believe it's normal

Here's to beliefs :beer:

If it's normal why aren't more people gay. In fact why isn't everyone gay? Simple, because that would interfere with normal reproduction and the end of the species. IMO a life form that can't perpetuate itself through reproduction of some sort is an anomaly. You can change my mind when you produce the first gay couple that reproduce naturally, without assistance. I'll be the first to say I was wrong, as I'm sure many other will as well. Until then you can believe as you wish. I view the actual condition and seeking of rights, privileges and interests as two separate issues. The first is scientific and the second appears largely seated in the economic arena. You can throw love and devotion in there, but nobody needs a piece of paper for that.

Reply #90 from Stardock Forums Top

I'm not sure that monkeys are close enough.

I don't think we can be sure that they don't know that these acts don't produce offspring. They seem to do it for specific reasons that are not a want for offspring.
End of quote

Those are females.

 

Reply #91 from JoeUser Forums Top

  

Reply #93 from JoeUser Forums Top

"About 120,000 babies (1 in 33) in the United States are born each year just as normal as the other 4.2 million"

End of quote

I have a birth defect myself. But it's a normal (common) one. I find myself quite normal when it comes to that.

 

I know you gave humans and animals as an example, but suppose you bought a product and it didn't work as designed. You might call it defective, especially if it performed the opposite function of its intended design, at any rate you wouldn't suggest it was normal. 

End of quote

It depends. We have 200 HP servers and 2 Dell servers. The two Dell servers have trouble rebooting remotely because they find themselves stuck at an "press F1" prompt. For Dell servers that appears to be normal, even if it happens to only some of them.

 

I'm not sure that monkeys are close enough.

End of quote

Are they or are they not animals?

 

Those are females.

End of quote

Your point being? Are females cleverer than males and it doesn't surprise you that they would understand it?

Remember, I didn't want to prove that animals become more gay the more closely related to humans they are. I am just showing you that homosexuality is natural and quite normal in some species, even species of apes (and monkies).

 

Reply #94 from JoeUser Forums Top

I have a birth defect myself. But it's a normal (common) one. I find myself quite normal when it comes to that.
End of quote

Without getting personal I'll assume it doesn't interfere with your life too much (and doesn't cause strange urges). But could you image a doctor saying to a couple just having a baby, "Mr. and Mrs. Soandso, your baby boy has a birth defect, but don't worry it's normal". I think the parents would be concerned and if possible have it treated. IMO common and normal are quite different terms. It's normal for volcano's to appear on the earth, but they are not common here in Virginia (or many other places). You are making a good effort though, I'll give you that.

Now imagine if a couple were told by a doctor that their baby was born gay, but he could fix it with a simple injection. Would the parents say, "No thanks Doc, we have two straight ones at home and we were hoping for a gay this time." or would they have the shot administered because they felt it was a "defect" and wanted a "normal" life for the child? My guess is that and overwhelming majority would take the second course of action, even if they supported gay rights 100%.

Reply #95 from JoeUser Forums Top

Without getting personal I'll assume it doesn't interfere with your life too much (and doesn't cause strange urges). But could you image a doctor saying to a couple just having a baby, "Mr. and Mrs. Soandso, your baby boy has a birth defect, but don't worry it's normal". I think the parents would be concerned and if possible have it treated. IMO common and normal are quite different terms. It's normal for volcano's to appear on the earth, but they are not common here in Virginia (or many other places). You are making a good effort though, I'll give you that.

End of quote

There are indeed many birth defects that are quite normal (or common) and don't interfere with life much. Most birth defects are of that type. That's what the 1/33 statistics include.

 

Now imagine if a couple were told by a doctor that their baby was born gay, but he could fix it with a simple injection. Would the parents say, "No thanks Doc, we have two straight ones at home and we were hoping for a gay this time." or would they have the shot administered because they felt it was a "defect" and wanted a "normal" life for the child? My guess is that and overwhelming majority would take the second course of action, even if they supported gay rights 100%.

End of quote

That must be one of the more truly horrible scenarios I can imagine.

The only reason the gay child would not have a normal life later is society's intolerance. There are some features we are born with that should be cured (if we can cure it), but for others it is not necessary. Your gedanken experiment is similar to a scenario where a mixed-race couple could make the decision to make their child look white (or black) because society might not accept a mixed-race individual. It's a horrible thought.

My guess is that you might be right and that an overwhelming majority would take the second course of action, even if they supported gay rights. But they would be wrong. Better a gay kid than interfering with nature in such a massive way for no reason than other people's intolerance.

 

Reply #96 from JoeUser Forums Top

My guess is that you might be right and that an overwhelming majority would take the second course of action, even if they supported gay rights. But they would be wrong. Better a gay kid than interfering with nature in such a massive way for no reason than other people's intolerance.
End of quote

...and I appreciate your response.

Reply #97 from Stardock Forums Top

Your point being?
End of quote

Somewhere we went from discussing animals mating with their young to gay animals.

Reply #98 from Stardock Forums Top

Leauki,

back to the numbers game...we discussed yesterday you felt there were more gays than bus drivers and I wrote in that I had one of each in my large extended family (both sides) trying to show you that it can't be as many as 10% homosexuals in the general population just using my family (who are NOT religious) as a model.  Anyhow I got to thinking and I remembered that I do have another bus driver in the family so...it's two bus drivers (both living) and one homosexual (now deceased).

So that makes it twice as many bus drivers as homosexuals in my family and...the bus drivers (both of them) lived longer than the homosexual did.  :) 

Actually, if you think about it, homosexuality isn't good for the lifespan either. 

 

Reply #99 from JoeUser Forums Top

So that makes it twice as many bus drivers as homosexuals in my family and...the bus drivers (both of them) lived longer than the homosexual did.  

End of quote

I don't have a family ready but in my congregation I know one gay individual and no bus drivers.

I don't know how many are still in the closet and do not admit to being gay (or bus drivers).

The other group I can talk about is my work colleagues. None of them are bus drivers. :-) But we have a few gay colleagues.

 

Actually, if you think about it, homosexuality isn't good for the lifespan either.

End of quote

I don't know about that. I have read somewhere that married people live longer than singles. It this is true it would certainly influence statistics since, hm, gays are less likely to marry.

 

Reply #100 from Stardock Forums Top

Getting back to what I originally wrote here about kids missing a parent, usually because of divorce, and observing the common trait of anger in all of them...did you hear the latest news coming from NM? 

Go here: 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572488,00.html?test=latestnews

This is exactly what I've been noticing. Again, another product of divorce.  In this case, the kids are living with Dad and mom's not in the home.  I believe the mom is the heart of the home.  They need their mom.  Had the parents been together doing what they were supposed to do in the raising of their children, this most likely would not have happened.   Such a tragedy. 

In just my local observations over the years I've noticed that the parents are so caught up in the messiness of their own lives that they're not teaching/disciplining their children by giving them the tools they need to curb such behaviors.  In one extreme case, we had a friend of my children kill himself at 15.  His whole personna was anger.   His parents knew in an instant what all their  years of bickering before, during and after their very heated, messy divorce had done to their kids. 

Here in my state last week one 14 year old was killed by his 15 year old brother because he had his music too loud.  The dad called it a terrible accident.  This was NO accident.  The 15 year old went to the kitchen, grabbed a knife and stabbed his brother to death...OVER MUSIC! 

This is all showing us that our children need their parents.  They need a mom and a dad that are committed to each other and love each other.  Every time we stray from God's best we take an awful chance.