lula posts:

kfc posts: #81

St.John is clear, KFC. But your use of verse 24 doesn't help prove your assertion and unfortunate belief in "faith alone". 

You must ignore all of Jesus' other teachings that include works (obedience to God's commands) as a measure of one's acceptance with God...not the least of these occurs just 4 verses later v. 29, where Jesus says, "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out, --those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

This connection between faith of v. 24, and good works v. 29 is not a novel teaching...it's throughout Scripture...for those who have eyes to see. 

IQOFSPAM POSTS #94

IQofspam.

You are making the same mistake as KFC...read the passages that follow...in this case yes, 3:16 refers to belief, but this aspect of salvation is followed by v. 21, But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." So, here what's the full teaching? Jesus doesn't emphasise those who believe, but "whoever lives by the truth". In fact, Jesus implies that that they have come to the light of faith precisely because they have been living in truth. Jesus is identifying intimately belief with works. Moreover, the works ie "whoever lives by the truth...have been done through God".

Belief is only one condition for obtaining eternal life and although Protestant theologians harp on these few passages....they do not make "sola fide" theology. Period.

kfc posts:

KFC, according to your interpretation of St. John 3,  the devils by believing are saved! Hogwash!

Anyone who believes they are saved by faith alone doesn't understand the central Gospel message. Both Sts. John and James reminds us that Faith in Christ by itself accomplishes nothing if it is not imbued with and completely by grace filled obedience to the Lord's commands (good works), that we love one another by concrete and sincere actions. 

Consider reading St.Luke 6: 46-49 about what Christ said about those who will be saved and those who won't be. 

Christ says those who come to Him ie have faith in Him must do more than merely hear His words if they want to be saved. They must DO them. It's not simply enough to acknowledge Christ as Lord and to proceed through life assuming you are saved simply because you believe in Christ is a big mistake.If that were not so then a man who believes that Jesus is the Son of God who came to earth to gain redeem all mankind, could go so far as to commit murder without fear of his soul's damnation.

Believing in God, in Jesus is a step, but not wholly sufficient in and of itself. WE MUST LIVE OUT OUR FAITH BY DOING THOSE THINGS WHICH HE COMMANDS US TO DO AND BY AVOIDING DOING THOSE THINGS HE COMMANDS US NOT TO DO.

In 2Thess. 1:8, St.Paul warns that when the Judgment comes, God will inflict "vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

According to Christ, St.Paul and the other NT writers, this "obedience of faith" is centrual to the life of the Christian who hopes to be saved, and it's another way of saying we must live our life in the state of grace, which means obeying CHrist's commands and avoiding sin (ie doing good works), and clinging to CHrist's grace for salvation.

The Hebrew word for freedom used in the Torah is "hiruth". It derives from a root that means "inscribed". The connection is that those who accepted Torah (i.e. know the truth) have freedom.

I believe the pastor (Charles Stanley?) might have been referring to that understanding of freedom when he said it.

IQ #

cacto posts #83

IQ posts # 93

Upon reading the account, it seems to me the thief on the cross next to Jesus made a sincere confession of his guilt and accepted his temporal punishment...he didn't ask to be delivered from it, he was penitent for it.  He asked Jesus to remember him in Paradise....and for this, Jesus immediately remitted all his sins and promised him that he would be with Him in Paradise.

Of course they do.  Why would you ask this? 

I have no idea. 

He didn't choose the Jews to make them suffer.  He chose the Jews so they might be witnesses for him.  He chose them out of love.  They were supposed to be a light to a darkened world.  When they chose to disobey they suffered.  Adam and Eve had it made in the garden.   When they disobeyed, they had consequences.  These consequences led to their suffering.  Whenever we do something we shouldn't we pay the price.  We always reap what we sow.  That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on our actions. 

I never said there wasn't a connection.  I said you're not saved by your good works.  That's totally diff.  How many times have I said your works are evidence of your faith?  How many times have I said works and faith work together?  That still doesn't make one saved by one's works.  In fact, scripture clearly teaches against this..

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."  Eph 2:8-9.  

I keep giving you this but you choose to ignore it.  Why?  Because to accept this is going to ruin your "saved by works theology." 

just for good measure here's another:

"NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, BUT according to his mercy HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."  Titus 3:5

How about yet another:

"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS but according to his own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began."  2 Tim 1:9

It's very very clear, for those with eyes to see, using your own words Lula.  Now take what you gave me and try to reconcile what I gave you.  Personal salvation is not acheived thru good deeds but thru the cleansing of the new birth which is supernatural.   Salvation is God's gracious work, not a reward for man's worthwhile acts.

Very good Leauki!  Although he wasn't speaking of the Torah specificially but the whole counsel of God which would include the Torah. 

no, the devils believe, yes, but their belief is not a saving belief.  There's a diff.  Many people believe in God but don't have a saving belief in God.  Big diff. 

That's what James was speaking about in 2:19.  If their belief did not produce good deeds it was no better than the the belief of the demons. 

kfc posts #81

This is another passage Protestants like to hang their hat upon that supposedly assures them of guaranteed salvation by "faith alone".This doesn't mean one's salvation is a "Done deal".The Lord will bring into glory all those who believe in Him and have stayed faithful to Him and His commands. 

So, once again it's not FAITH ALONE. Rather, it's faith plus good works (obedience)...Period.

True...but we don't know we are saved until we actually pass through the Heavenly gates which are narrow. 

We can lose faith which is a gift from God and we can lose grace by continued unrepentant sinning. Faith is the beginning of salvation . Faith is an element of human volition which recognizes and acknowledges God's grace and so it's the first element that establishes our relationship with God. We are all sinners but Christ didn't take upon Himself the guilt and punishment required of man for sin, sin Hell is the ultimate punishment for sin. rather, Christ became the propitiatory sacrifice in order to appease the wrath of God against sin. In this way, by His death on the Cross, He redeemed all mankind, opened the gates of grace and makes it possible for all to be saved.

Through grace God gives each one He expects the believer will exercise that grace by continuing to believe God despite circumstantial experiences of life.

Yes, Christ and St.Paul preached against legalistic works (of the Old Law), but that is not to confuse those with good works through obedience to God and His laws.

So..this is where your grave misunderstanding of what good works are should end.

Just like Abraham, the individual must please God by his faith and obedience. If he doesn't then he can't be saved. God is the sole judge of whether we please Him...and here, saying you are absolutely sure of your salvation; that it's a "done deal",  you have already judged yourself and deemed yourself worthy! 

Because you harbor a grave misunderstanding of good works, your analysis and criticism of the Catholic Church is wrong. The Church has been ever faithful to Christ's teachings and can't teach error in matters of faith and morals on CHrist's promise to be with her until the end of the world.

Good works are obedience to God's commands, prayer and almsgiving.

Then you should reread your own article again! You wrote:

KFC writes: 

The whole point of your article and comments is your shoring up your belief that you are saved by "faith alone".

It was humanity that chose the Jews to make them suffer, not G-d.

They suffered not because G-d wanted it but because of what other peoples did when the Jews had let their defences down, with their best defence being faith. It wasn't G-d punishment for disobedience when Jews suffered, it was the natural cause of events for people who lose faith.

Those who made and make the Jews suffer are not G-d's agents but their own. They do not act out G-d's will, they merely use an opportunity created by Jews losing faith in their Protector.

The Jews were already slaves when G-d chose them.

Again, wanted to touch on this.  Adam was unique.  He wasn't like the rest of us who came after and inherited his sin.  He was born completely sinless and already had eternal life.  He was already "saved."  He was born saved. 

Like I said earlier he had a relationship with God.  God already chose him to be in his family.  What Adam chose to do tho was disobey him.  So Adam's choice wasn't in his birth, but in his obedience.  He chose to disobey.  He didn't chose not to be born. 

That's what I'm getting at.  OUr freewill is not in our birth, but in our obedience.  We do nothing about our birth, but after our birth we are accountable to our Father in heaven who gave birth to us out of his great abundant grace and mercy. 

I know what I wrote Lula.   The confusion lies with you.  Salvation is by faith alone.  You are NOT saved by your works.  I have not drifted from that because the bible is very very clear. 

That doesn't mean there's no connection between works and faith.  There is. I agree with that.  But we are not saved by our works like I've clearly shown you. 

What you say Leauki is true but God does punish and did punish the Jews.   So it's really like a combination of the two.  God does punish using natural events, people, and circumstances to carry out his punishment.

He even said so.  He used the Assyrians as his whip it says in scripture to spank Israel for their rebellion.  He punished Moses by not letting him see the promised land after he disobeyed God's command.  He used Babylon to punish the Southern Kingdom in much the same way as he used Assyria to punish the Northern Tribes.   He ran Adam and Eve from the garden shutting them out etc. 

God says to spare the rod is to spoil the child.  He takes his own advice.  Sometimes he does take us into his spiritual woodshed, if you will, and spank us.  Many times this does come in the form of natural consequences allowing these things to happen instead of protecting us from it. 

Suffering can be a result of protecting and punishing.  I believe the suffering the Jews had during the Egyptian rule was for their protection and longevity.  He used that time to grow them.  I also believe the suffering the Jews went thru for many centuries led to them returning to their own land.  This is continuing to work itself out. 

That is true. But I was trying specifically to explain that "chosen" and "suffering" does not imply that one was chosen for suffering.

It's a combination.  The point is that the Assyrians and Babylonians were never G-d's agents. They themselves were opportunists and the role they had to play was not one choice. There was nothing morally good about what they did, even if G-d allowed it to happen.

But don't forget that those forces who act, like the Assyrians and Babylonians, are not, as I said, acting on G-d's behalf and will be punished. When Israel turns away from G-d, there is an opportunity to attack, not a duty or even excuse to do so.

It certainly strengthened them as a people.

You said there's no difference between Jews and Christians.

Now I know you're full of shit.

1. You're trying to give a supernatural reason to naturally occuring events. You yourself used the word "natural."

2. How do you personally know which events God allowed to happen and which ones he didn't?

I'm going to guess they'll say....the Bible/unerring truth. >_<

I just came back to edit that. 

KFC, How do you personally know which events were punishments and which weren't?

Again, they'll likely insert the Bible/unerring truth/word into that.

Events chronicled in the Bible, probably, but I'm refering to modern times.

Of course they can, because that's who fairy tales are for.

Hence my comment. They'll comment about the bible, faith, the word, et al. It's the same parroting over and over.

KFC POSTS:

and then writes:

It's your statements like these that are confusing and contradictory. 

And this Protestant doctrine is flat out wrong. According to this, it doesn't matter whether an individual believer lives a good life or not. If all believers are necessarily saved by faith alone, then why does our Lord tell us that on the last day, all men will be judged..the good will be rewarded the wicked will be sent to Hell?

St.James 2 clearly refutes and contradicts your statement and belief that salvation is by faith alone.  St.James teaches that faith alone is insufficient for salvation if it is divorced from a life of good works (which is obedience to God and His laws).

Christ Himself warns us to watch and pray lest we enter into temptation. He also asks the question what does it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul? Those who think themselves to stand are told to beware lest they fall. 

Your complete assurance of salvation by faith alone finds no justification in the Holy Bible.

Salvation is not by faith alone, nor is it by good works alone; rather, salvation comes by a combination of both.

kfc posts #81

We Catholics can go into a Protestant Church for any funeral or wedding, just not in place of Mass on Sunday. So, if this was the case for your inlaws....good for them. 

Why abandon the One, True Church for any one of the Protestant Churches?  There is no sanctuary lamp...of your own choosing, you lack the Real Presence.

How can works be evidence of salvation when we don't know if we are saved until we pass through the heavenly gates?

kfc posts #84

Nah,  this 16th century concept of imputation is loaded with holes and the Scriptural proof texts are non-existent. Since the wages of sin is death, the sinner cannot be justified by just a "cloaking over" of his sins.

With grace, God gives the repentant sinner not just a mere "credit" of imputed righteousness, but an infused righteousness into the soul of the person. His sins are actually removed as God infuses His divine righteiousness into the soul He instills the supernatural virtues of faith, hope and charity (love). As the individual, through God's helping grace, maintains his personal rightousness, he becomes increasingly justified (is being saved) and sanctified in the eyes of God, leading to his final justification (salvation and glorification in Heaven).

An analagy to explain the concept of God's infused righteousness would be that of poouring an amount of pure white liquid into the soul which is blackened with sin so that finally the soul turns from black to white. The white is analagous to the grace of God which is infused into the sinner, changing the whole person, and sufficiently overcoming the blackness of sin. The infused righteiousness of God's grace actually changes or renovates the person's soul to the point that he become acceptable to God and may enter heaven. 

So, our justification process is an ongoing one with God constantly poouring white liquid (His grace) into our dark stained soul making it whiter and whiter. At the same time, if we enter into unrepentant sin, this would combat this process and once again make the soul dark or darker.

The bottom line: it's the condition of the person's soul at death, e.g. the whiteness of the liquid, that is the criterion for final justification.

this question tells me you're not listening to one word I have to say.  Did you even read the blog to begin with?