How many Christians do you know who took their lives?  I don't know any although I do know people who have thrown in the towel way too early because they had no hope.  As a Christian, we know, it's not about us.  It's about God and his plan, not ours.   Unbeliever's don't have that focus.  Their focus in on themselves, not God. 

That's exactly what we saw in the garden of Eden.  Adam and Eve were both naked until sin entered the scene.  Once they sinned, the first thing they did was hide because they realized they were naked.  Why didn't they see that before?  Because sin turns our head.  Sin makes us take our focus off God and onto ourselves.  And without God we are all naked!  That's why it says in scripture that we, who believe, are cloaked in Christ's rightesousness.  He coveres our nakedness and shame. 

well it's not quite the same.  But yeah we can take joy even in those times of persecution because our joy is based on the internal not external experiences.    It's not the same thing as saying we're happy we're hated.  Who can really say that?  We're still human and it hurts but we also know it's par for the course. 

So no matter what happens on the outside to us our joy can never be taken away completely.  The stronger the faith, the more joy. 

You said "MOST people." So there must be a few.

I would say probably it would be rare, but yes, I would leave room open for the fact that a Christian could throw in the towel and take his life.  It would be more of an exception than a rule tho.   I would also add that a Christian who would take his own life was either very weak in his faith or had a very weak moment.   It's a very selfish act.

The fact that you would take your own life means that you have lost all hope.  Christians have hope.  They know it's going to get better.  They also know they are put here on earth for a reason and their life is not their own but has been bought for a price, so it's sort of an oxymoron for a Christian to commit suicide. 

So there are no rewards for Christians until after death, and all of the disasters and tragedies that happen to Christians are caused by an all-loving, all-merciful God only because he wants the zillionth promise of faith and love?

What difference do all of our promises make if what really matters is what we believe immediately before death?

If God really loves us and wants the best for us, why doesn't he want us to stand on our own two feet? Could it be that he needs us? Without us, he's nothing? Because he only exists in our imaginations?

I wouldn't go so far to say there are NO rewards here on earth.  We do have joy, peace, and comfort that is worth more than rubies can buy. The gift of the Holy Spirit is something money can't buy as Simeon in the book of Acts found out.   Everything the world has to offer pales in comparison to what eternity with God will offer.  Nothing brings us face to face with God like walking thru deep valleys.  It's in those times, that we grow closer, stronger and bolder as God shows us he's with us during those times.  "Tho I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death, you are with me."  Psalm 23:4

I'm not sure what you're saying here?  What promises? 

It's never how we start the race, it's how we end it. Whether it be physical or spiritual.  Think about the tortoise and the hare.  Have you ever heard of a 90 yard dash?   It's the same in the spiritual realm.  We run thru, over and around the obstacles put in our path but we never, ever give up. 

God is a God of many attributes.   One of them is love.  I believe God created us out of his great love.  Think about John 3:16.  He desires to love and be loved.  Justice is another one of his attributes.  That's why justice has to prevail.  Because man sinned, man has to be punished. God will not and cannot let sin go unpunished. It goes against his very being. 

God is a holy God and sin and rebellion are not part of his order.  But his love and mercy (another attribute)is so much greater than his justice that inn order to reconcile man's sin against his creator he offered himself as payment for it.  

God did set the first man and woman  on their feet and gave them freedom with only one command.  Don't rebell against me.  That was it.  It's been that way ever since.  It's man's nature to rebell against God.  We all do it.  Even Christians with God's nature now in them after accepting his gift of reconciliation still on occasion find themselves warring against the flesh. 

Does he exist in your imagination? 

That doesn't explain why he wants us to be forever dependent upon him.

short and easy answer is "he's God and we're not." 

How's that for an answer?   He also knows that left to ourselves, we would make a mess of things.  I think we can see that already can't we? 

Aren't you dependant on things to keep you alive physically?  How about food and water? 

God is our life source.  It's like a soldier being dependant on his commander after being dropped off in a wilderness somewhere.  He depends on the two way radio for his next move.    You ever watch shows like Flashpoint or The Unit?   If the communication breaks down it can be disaterous.   With no radio, and no communication, he's sunk in the water with the enemy closing in.   He can't see what's about to happen with no eyes and ears looking out for him. 

God looks out for us.  He gives us what we need to succeed.  He's called the "living water" and the "bread of life."  Basically this means he's our sustanence.  Just like we are in need or dependant on "physical food" we also depend on the spiritual food to keep us going. 

Without God we wouldn't even be here.  We depend on him for the very air we breath.  Think about that. 

But yet we're his best creation?

Can you answer this?

This is great. With all the work to be done you folks sit around and argue about salvation, about who got it and who don't. And where do you go for your references? The bible! It's quaint how so many people are still stuck in the 'old' ways of seeing things. In the book of Obama, chat chap no.7 line 9, it clearly states, "we are not a nation of Christians, or Jews, or Muslims. We are a nation of citizens...and we think Homosexuality is cool. We are not backwards as are the people in West Virginia that didn't vote for me." There's no mention of good works or of faith alone. Why don't you all chill, and put on a homo porno dvd.

   By the way, I wouldn't dare write such a provocative comment if I wasn't  completely sure about my salvation. Praise the Lord. To work out your salvation, one needs Christ to be a constant in his life. Christ is our salvation, and like Jackie Wilson say, "shout baby, work it on out....shout baby, work it on out." I'll add, work while it's day, for the night cometh when no man can work. What is salvation anyways? Is it not redemption? Is it not reconsilliation with God Almighty? That's what we can know. The Lord makes it known unto us who are saved. Even when we fail miserably at the things He would have us do, He makes our peace with God a known thing. Amen?

I would be careful about using sarcasm in writing, it mostly doesn't come through - and even when it does, more often than not it just makes your statement confusing.

To answer your first question, "best" doesn't necessarily mean "good."  Best is a relative term.  Humanity, like all of creation, now suffers under the curse of sin.

To your second question, God doesn't need us.  He doesn't need our help, our promises, our money, or anything from us at all.  In that light our promises are useless to God.  Therefore what matters is whether or not God has saved us, not whether or not we made a promise to serve Him.

I imagine that's confusing consider what most Christians teach.  Basically, the choice to follow Him only appears to be our own.  Without His help, we would never be able to decide to follow Him.  We're like drowning people to whom a lifeguard reached out to save.  We chose to take the lifeguard's hand and be rescued.  But what if the lifeguard didn't reach out?  Could we still choose to grab his hand?  No, we would be doomed to drown, because we can't save ourselves.  But once the lifeguard reached out, we were able to choose - and who would choose to drown?

In the same way, God chooses who will be saved.  It has nothing to do with us.  We're just self-centered enough to think that it does.

I have to tweak this a bit IQ from how I see scripture.  Even reaching for that lifeguard's hand is a work that we can boast in.  Because it's up to us to do so.  I take it a bit further. 

The bible says we are "dead in our sins."  (Eph 2:1) So what can a dead man do?  Sin blinds us and kills us.  We are already drowned in a big sea and are floating...dead as can be.  Can we reach out?  No.  Instead the lifeguard plucks us out of the sea and blows life into us.  Performs CPR.  He chooses whom to save in a sea filled with dead people.  One by one he plucks us out and saves us.  In our gratefulness of being saved we also go to work helping him in his effort to save others.  That's how salvation and works go hand in hand.  We are saved by grace thru faith alone and then saved to do works.  That's the whole point of this thread. 

God delights in his creation.  He doesn't need us but he delights in us.  Sort of like us with our own children.  We don't need children but we do take delight in them and love them.  We are made to love and be loved.  It's the same with God.  His desire is to have a people to love.  We don't need to have children but we desire to. 

you got that right.  I am very confused by what he just said.  I can't tell which side he's on. 

That is actually my whole point. Every single person who reads the scriptures, you and I included, takes away something a little different depending upon their own views, experiences, and beliefs.  That is why we have so many different denominations within Christianity, and is a source of confusion among people both within and outside of the faith.

The fact that the books were hand picked by a committee of differeing views is historical fact. What we call the Holy Bible today is a product of compromise in committee, which is never perfect. That is not to say that is has no value, as I believe that it does. I read it daily. There is a great deal of value there, but one should read it with the knowledge that it may well be incomplete thanks to the political machinations of Man. It still remains, in my opinion, the best guide to who God is and how we are expected to live our lives in relation to Him and each other.

Ah, and there you make an assumption about where I am now. No, I do not subscribe to a lot of the denominational dogma of modern religion. That is not to say that I lack faith in God, far from it in fact. I have studied the scriptures most of my life. Does that surprise you?

I have utter and complete faith in God. I have no faith at all in man-made religion as it exists today. I do not believe His church is remotely what He intended for it to be. It's become a business for the most part, and I find that as despicable as Jesus did the money changers at the temple.  That is not to say that everyone who attends church is wrong, I attend services myself on a regular basis, and those who have true faith and attend church because of that faith and not just to "look proper" have my utmost love and respect.

Sadly churches are filled with hypocrits and a congregation of 100 souls may only have a handfull of true faith. That's what happens when a spiritual place becomes a business.

There are also those who wear their religion like a fancy cloak, only to honor themselves. Churches are filled with those people. For them it isn't truly about faith, it's about them and being "better" than other people. To be honest when you first started posting on JU I believed that you were likely one of those people, which is why I took an early dislike to you. I admit that I was wrong.

After reading your posts over time I have come to understand that you aren't actually one of those people, you just tend to communicate in what I call Chistian-ese, which is a natural result of being swamped in religion over a long period of time. To use that manner of speech towards non-Christians is a turn off for them. The most effective evangelists are those who communicate in common language, not Christian-ese as they understand how it makes people uncomfortable.

While I do not agree with some of the religious dogma to which you subscribe, I do see that you have true faith and count you as a sister and friend with a shared faith in God. Our approaches are a bit different though. I prefer to follow the suggestion of preaching by example, not by words. There are a great many things I do on a daily basis to communicate the grace and love of God although I never write or speak of them. To do so would be only to try and bring glory to myself which is simply wrong. I only mention it here to suggest to you that making assumptions can be dangerous and rarely correct.

Despite my picking on and challenging you with what are sometimes intentionally outrageous statements, I do like you alhtough we've never met.

I also have to admit that after my mother passed away I was very mentally negative, even towards God. It took time for me to realize that I was actually feeling guilty about something. The day they called me and told me she had slipped into a coma I prayed and asked God to heal her or, if He was going to take her to do it quickly so she wouldn't suffer. I prayed that at about four in the afternoon and she died just after midnight that night.

The past couple of weeks I had felt God calling me back. Little things really, none of which meant anything on their own, but they added up. I figure He gave me my time to grieve in my own fashion. I realize now that He had answered my prayer just as I requested it, and gave her peace. She was a believer and so she is now at peace, which is what I asked for. I think the day she was most proud of me was when I was ordained as a minister (non-denominational of course). He took away my anger and guilt and gave me peace once again. For that I am grateful.

While some of our beliefs on relgion may differ, I believe we (and Lula) share a basic common faith. I am also grateful for that.

Peace.

If one truly acts from the heart, the question need not be asked. God cares about our motives, and if our motives are pure, from the heart, we need not question them ourselves. That's true grace. I would hate to have to ask myself that every time I do something for someone else. I do it because my heart moves  me to do so. Doing what is right in God's eyes needs no questioning or justification. If one needs to ask that question of their own motives they should seriously examine their own faith.

As to the works issue, if one does "good works" because they want salvation, what could be more selfish? Hardly an honorable motive in my book. God wants us to treat each other with love because it's the right thing to do, and because we want to, not to earn some later reward. If you do something good for someone else for no other reason than it's the right thing to do and you want to do it, that is true love of fellow Man.

Motivation means everything. I am sure that God does not see good works for selfish reasons as anything but selfish acts.

Well said and a very excellent point.

Our entire lives are a constant test. We are tested constantly in some fashion or another. Who among us lives a totally stress-free, perfect life? That is the very nature of life itself.

Very good and a very accurate observation (although I know it wasn't directed to me). This "testing" thing is a common theme among Christians, and somewhat inaccurate. Those of faith and those not of faith face the exact same trials and troubles in life. Sometimes those trials actually bring someone to faith (often in fact). I do not belive that God causes us those troubles, they are just a part of physical life on this little ball of dirt.

God does not test us. He does, however, watch over those of faith and gives us the strength to get through the problems of life with a sense of well being and peace that those without faith often lack.He can and does use those trials for our ultimate good although sometimes we can have a hard time seeing the good while in the midst of the situation.His assistance, through faith, grows our faith. The result is the same as they believe, but the nature is not.

Blaming God for the misfortunes that befall us and calling it a "test" is a misunderstanding of the nature of God, and is ultimately wrong thinking in my opinion.

You obviously don't understand the definition of the word selfish. The desire to do something for someone else, or to glorify someone else, is the exact opposite of selfish behavior.

Drives me nuts. Listen to the Christian radio station of your choice and you'll hear a lot of talk about money and finances. Entire ministries are built upon it. And people buy in to it, literally. Great business but lousy religion.

My grandfather once told me "Never trust a rich preacher"

God not only wants us to stand on our own two feet, but he expects it from those of faith. Those who aren't willing to work don't eat. He expects us to do for ourselves. Some Christians these days have a very wishy-washy view of what a Christian man should be...basically a wimp, but the bible tells us very differently. God expects a person to stand on his/her own, be strong, and do for themselves as well as for others. That requires strength and charactor. A true person of faith is very much on their own two feet, but without the pride and self-centeredness that is so common in the world.

I have a little different answer than KFC. In short, He doesn't. He simply gives us a choice. We can live a very full, rich life without ever believing in Him. He allows that without condition.

He also provides us the choice to believe in Him and to accept His grace in which case we are allowed to spend eternity with Him.

A being capable of creating an entire universe could certainly force his creation to do His will if he chose to do so, but instead He allows us to make our own choice about things. That's hardly making us dependent upon him now is it? He set up the universe so that it runs just fine whether we choose to believe in Him or not, so again we aren't dependent upon him from that perspective either.

He could have made us so that we had no choice but to live and behave in the manner that He would want us to do so and to love Him,  but in the end what would forced love and behavior really mean?  Even we as human beings can understand the difference between forced love and love that comes from free will.

All He wants is for us to accept His gifts to us and to love Him for who He is. Nothing more. The desire to be loved is pretty much universal among human beings and that's because we were created in His image, and as such He also desires to be loved. Many see Him as wanting to subjugate us but in reality He simply wants us to love Him. That's pretty easy to understand.

His nature is not so easy for us to understand because He isn't a physical beings like us and exists outside of what we know as our universe, but He provided us with enough information to at least get some understanding of His nature if not His substance.

If He created  us and everything we know He is essentially our ultimate father and as such we should love Him as we love our biological fathers. Again, hardly dependence, just relationship.

Naturally, because of my own somewhat sarcastic writing/thinking style I got it perfectly. It was sarcasm and he is obvilously of a Christian bent.

I was with ya right up to this point. God gives everyone the same choice. It's up to each to make that choice. God may well already know who will choose one way or another, but He certainly doesn't pick and choose them. That's just absurd and totally opposed to what we can know of His nature. God didn't give us free will just so He could decide who will accept His grace and who wouldn't. The very thought is both absurd and an insult to the nature of God.

KFC, my apoligies for the multitude of replies here. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and couldn't help myself